We will not forget

[sdnativeson]

And the sheep continue bleating…… IMHO you’ve wasted far more space here than FLU ever could.

“Sophisticated” people welcome discourse, not shout it down and belittle others.

As you are so… sophisticated, I suggest you create your own blog(s) and entertain yourself on your own dime.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

stockstradr: You’ve trotted out Brzezinski’s claims before. Unfortunately, he’s at odds with some of the facts, especially concerning his “foresight” in “trapping” the Soviets in a Vietnam-style debacle in Afghanistan.

The Soviet “invasion” in September 1979 was a fait accompli. They were responding to their “friendship treaty” of the previous year with Afghanistan. The treaty allowed for Soviet intervention if the Afghans asked, and they did following the internal strife that had accompanied the PDPA takeover in 1978.

The PDPA were Marxists and pro-Soviet and there were 400 Soviet advisers in-country well in advance of the Soviet invasion. The PDPA were in the midst of instituting Soviet-style reforms when what became the Mujahideen rose up in protest.

The US did recognize the opportunity to attack the Soviets by proxy and enlisted the help of the Saudis (among others) to raise money for weapons and training. The book “Charlie Wilson’s War” does an excellent job of explaining the ocnflict and the chronology (an area where Brzezinski’s memory gets a little cloudy). Many of Brzezinski’s claims are rebutted or contradicted by Cyrus Vance, Carter’s Secretary of State at the time.

What is beyond dispute is that we did indeed arm and train the Mujahideen against the Soviets and we did abandon them following the Soviet exit in 1988, much as we abandoned the Kurds in 1991 and left them to Saddam’s tender mercies.

The claim that the Soviets collapsed due to falling oil prices is also risible on the face of it, and in direct contradiction of the facts. The Soviets were bankrupted by decades of a staggeringly expensive arms race with the US and the West, along with an endemically corrupt series of regimes. Perhaps falling oil prices were the final nail in the coffin, but they certainly were not the motive factor.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

stockstradr: You’ve trotted out Brzezinski’s claims before. Unfortunately, he’s at odds with some of the facts, especially concerning his “foresight” in “trapping” the Soviets in a Vietnam-style debacle in Afghanistan.

The Soviet “invasion” in September 1979 was a fait accompli. They were responding to their “friendship treaty” of the previous year with Afghanistan. The treaty allowed for Soviet intervention if the Afghans asked, and they did following the internal strife that had accompanied the PDPA takeover in 1978.

The PDPA were Marxists and pro-Soviet and there were 400 Soviet advisers in-country well in advance of the Soviet invasion. The PDPA were in the midst of instituting Soviet-style reforms when what became the Mujahideen rose up in protest.

The US did recognize the opportunity to attack the Soviets by proxy and enlisted the help of the Saudis (among others) to raise money for weapons and training. The book “Charlie Wilson’s War” does an excellent job of explaining the ocnflict and the chronology (an area where Brzezinski’s memory gets a little cloudy). Many of Brzezinski’s claims are rebutted or contradicted by Cyrus Vance, Carter’s Secretary of State at the time.

What is beyond dispute is that we did indeed arm and train the Mujahideen against the Soviets and we did abandon them following the Soviet exit in 1988, much as we abandoned the Kurds in 1991 and left them to Saddam’s tender mercies.

The claim that the Soviets collapsed due to falling oil prices is also risible on the face of it, and in direct contradiction of the facts. The Soviets were bankrupted by decades of a staggeringly expensive arms race with the US and the West, along with an endemically corrupt series of regimes. Perhaps falling oil prices were the final nail in the coffin, but they certainly were not the motive factor.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

stockstradr: You’ve trotted out Brzezinski’s claims before. Unfortunately, he’s at odds with some of the facts, especially concerning his “foresight” in “trapping” the Soviets in a Vietnam-style debacle in Afghanistan.

The Soviet “invasion” in September 1979 was a fait accompli. They were responding to their “friendship treaty” of the previous year with Afghanistan. The treaty allowed for Soviet intervention if the Afghans asked, and they did following the internal strife that had accompanied the PDPA takeover in 1978.

The PDPA were Marxists and pro-Soviet and there were 400 Soviet advisers in-country well in advance of the Soviet invasion. The PDPA were in the midst of instituting Soviet-style reforms when what became the Mujahideen rose up in protest.

The US did recognize the opportunity to attack the Soviets by proxy and enlisted the help of the Saudis (among others) to raise money for weapons and training. The book “Charlie Wilson’s War” does an excellent job of explaining the ocnflict and the chronology (an area where Brzezinski’s memory gets a little cloudy). Many of Brzezinski’s claims are rebutted or contradicted by Cyrus Vance, Carter’s Secretary of State at the time.

What is beyond dispute is that we did indeed arm and train the Mujahideen against the Soviets and we did abandon them following the Soviet exit in 1988, much as we abandoned the Kurds in 1991 and left them to Saddam’s tender mercies.

The claim that the Soviets collapsed due to falling oil prices is also risible on the face of it, and in direct contradiction of the facts. The Soviets were bankrupted by decades of a staggeringly expensive arms race with the US and the West, along with an endemically corrupt series of regimes. Perhaps falling oil prices were the final nail in the coffin, but they certainly were not the motive factor.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

stockstradr: You’ve trotted out Brzezinski’s claims before. Unfortunately, he’s at odds with some of the facts, especially concerning his “foresight” in “trapping” the Soviets in a Vietnam-style debacle in Afghanistan.

The Soviet “invasion” in September 1979 was a fait accompli. They were responding to their “friendship treaty” of the previous year with Afghanistan. The treaty allowed for Soviet intervention if the Afghans asked, and they did following the internal strife that had accompanied the PDPA takeover in 1978.

The PDPA were Marxists and pro-Soviet and there were 400 Soviet advisers in-country well in advance of the Soviet invasion. The PDPA were in the midst of instituting Soviet-style reforms when what became the Mujahideen rose up in protest.

The US did recognize the opportunity to attack the Soviets by proxy and enlisted the help of the Saudis (among others) to raise money for weapons and training. The book “Charlie Wilson’s War” does an excellent job of explaining the ocnflict and the chronology (an area where Brzezinski’s memory gets a little cloudy). Many of Brzezinski’s claims are rebutted or contradicted by Cyrus Vance, Carter’s Secretary of State at the time.

What is beyond dispute is that we did indeed arm and train the Mujahideen against the Soviets and we did abandon them following the Soviet exit in 1988, much as we abandoned the Kurds in 1991 and left them to Saddam’s tender mercies.

The claim that the Soviets collapsed due to falling oil prices is also risible on the face of it, and in direct contradiction of the facts. The Soviets were bankrupted by decades of a staggeringly expensive arms race with the US and the West, along with an endemically corrupt series of regimes. Perhaps falling oil prices were the final nail in the coffin, but they certainly were not the motive factor.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

stockstradr: You’ve trotted out Brzezinski’s claims before. Unfortunately, he’s at odds with some of the facts, especially concerning his “foresight” in “trapping” the Soviets in a Vietnam-style debacle in Afghanistan.

The Soviet “invasion” in September 1979 was a fait accompli. They were responding to their “friendship treaty” of the previous year with Afghanistan. The treaty allowed for Soviet intervention if the Afghans asked, and they did following the internal strife that had accompanied the PDPA takeover in 1978.

The PDPA were Marxists and pro-Soviet and there were 400 Soviet advisers in-country well in advance of the Soviet invasion. The PDPA were in the midst of instituting Soviet-style reforms when what became the Mujahideen rose up in protest.

The US did recognize the opportunity to attack the Soviets by proxy and enlisted the help of the Saudis (among others) to raise money for weapons and training. The book “Charlie Wilson’s War” does an excellent job of explaining the ocnflict and the chronology (an area where Brzezinski’s memory gets a little cloudy). Many of Brzezinski’s claims are rebutted or contradicted by Cyrus Vance, Carter’s Secretary of State at the time.

What is beyond dispute is that we did indeed arm and train the Mujahideen against the Soviets and we did abandon them following the Soviet exit in 1988, much as we abandoned the Kurds in 1991 and left them to Saddam’s tender mercies.

The claim that the Soviets collapsed due to falling oil prices is also risible on the face of it, and in direct contradiction of the facts. The Soviets were bankrupted by decades of a staggeringly expensive arms race with the US and the West, along with an endemically corrupt series of regimes. Perhaps falling oil prices were the final nail in the coffin, but they certainly were not the motive factor.

[NotCranky]

sdnativeson,

I understand that events like 9/11 mean different things to different people. To me, aside from the actual tragedy, I see the event being co-opoted as some kind of excuse to amplify the already disgusting level of chauvansim in our national identity and to manipulate acceptance of war-mongering and imperialism or hegemony or what ever you want to call it.I find that extremely offensive.

I didn’t say I was sophisticated, obviously I was giving credit to Rich and some of the other posters on the blog.

I am not certifiably shallow either. I have no interest in starting my own site.I have said many times I wouldn’t blame Rich for kicking half of us off. Until that happens, I guess I am FREE to participate. FLU can answer anything from me. He has before and if he cares to, he will do fine on this occasion.

[NotCranky]

sdnativeson,

I understand that events like 9/11 mean different things to different people. To me, aside from the actual tragedy, I see the event being co-opoted as some kind of excuse to amplify the already disgusting level of chauvansim in our national identity and to manipulate acceptance of war-mongering and imperialism or hegemony or what ever you want to call it.I find that extremely offensive.

I didn’t say I was sophisticated, obviously I was giving credit to Rich and some of the other posters on the blog.

I am not certifiably shallow either. I have no interest in starting my own site.I have said many times I wouldn’t blame Rich for kicking half of us off. Until that happens, I guess I am FREE to participate. FLU can answer anything from me. He has before and if he cares to, he will do fine on this occasion.

[NotCranky]

sdnativeson,

I understand that events like 9/11 mean different things to different people. To me, aside from the actual tragedy, I see the event being co-opoted as some kind of excuse to amplify the already disgusting level of chauvansim in our national identity and to manipulate acceptance of war-mongering and imperialism or hegemony or what ever you want to call it.I find that extremely offensive.

I didn’t say I was sophisticated, obviously I was giving credit to Rich and some of the other posters on the blog.

I am not certifiably shallow either. I have no interest in starting my own site.I have said many times I wouldn’t blame Rich for kicking half of us off. Until that happens, I guess I am FREE to participate. FLU can answer anything from me. He has before and if he cares to, he will do fine on this occasion.

[NotCranky]

sdnativeson,

I understand that events like 9/11 mean different things to different people. To me, aside from the actual tragedy, I see the event being co-opoted as some kind of excuse to amplify the already disgusting level of chauvansim in our national identity and to manipulate acceptance of war-mongering and imperialism or hegemony or what ever you want to call it.I find that extremely offensive.

I didn’t say I was sophisticated, obviously I was giving credit to Rich and some of the other posters on the blog.

I am not certifiably shallow either. I have no interest in starting my own site.I have said many times I wouldn’t blame Rich for kicking half of us off. Until that happens, I guess I am FREE to participate. FLU can answer anything from me. He has before and if he cares to, he will do fine on this occasion.

[NotCranky]

sdnativeson,

I understand that events like 9/11 mean different things to different people. To me, aside from the actual tragedy, I see the event being co-opoted as some kind of excuse to amplify the already disgusting level of chauvansim in our national identity and to manipulate acceptance of war-mongering and imperialism or hegemony or what ever you want to call it.I find that extremely offensive.

I didn’t say I was sophisticated, obviously I was giving credit to Rich and some of the other posters on the blog.

I am not certifiably shallow either. I have no interest in starting my own site.I have said many times I wouldn’t blame Rich for kicking half of us off. Until that happens, I guess I am FREE to participate. FLU can answer anything from me. He has before and if he cares to, he will do fine on this occasion.

[temeculaguy]

Well written Allan, a multi sourced rebuttal, you win since I was keeping score at home.

So when I die, I would like to say right now that i want none of you at my funeral or to remember me in any way shape or form. Based on the thread thus far, there will be arguments about the legitamacy of my 6th grade chess tournament victory, how I treated my 1st girlfriend, whether or not I flossed, if I inhaled and how I came into possession of my first fake I.D., with little to no mention of any of the good things I did with my time on the planet.

Let’s take every story of heroism and try and destroy it with conspiracy theories. Let’s pretend there are never good guys and bad guys, just bad guys.

I know one thing for certain regardless of what brought down the soviets. The people on the fourth plane that somehow mustered the courage to prevent it from being used as a weapon or the people who perished after rushing into the towers before they collapsed. No matter who your god is or what you believe happens to you when you die, if there is an afterlife, they will be seated at the “Big Table” with the “Big Guy or Gal” and we can only hope that we will have the honor of cleaning their dishes. Until that day, I’ll pause once a year to honor them, make promises to them and defend to the death your right as an American to be ungrateful and disrespectful.

[temeculaguy]

Well written Allan, a multi sourced rebuttal, you win since I was keeping score at home.

So when I die, I would like to say right now that i want none of you at my funeral or to remember me in any way shape or form. Based on the thread thus far, there will be arguments about the legitamacy of my 6th grade chess tournament victory, how I treated my 1st girlfriend, whether or not I flossed, if I inhaled and how I came into possession of my first fake I.D., with little to no mention of any of the good things I did with my time on the planet.

Let’s take every story of heroism and try and destroy it with conspiracy theories. Let’s pretend there are never good guys and bad guys, just bad guys.

I know one thing for certain regardless of what brought down the soviets. The people on the fourth plane that somehow mustered the courage to prevent it from being used as a weapon or the people who perished after rushing into the towers before they collapsed. No matter who your god is or what you believe happens to you when you die, if there is an afterlife, they will be seated at the “Big Table” with the “Big Guy or Gal” and we can only hope that we will have the honor of cleaning their dishes. Until that day, I’ll pause once a year to honor them, make promises to them and defend to the death your right as an American to be ungrateful and disrespectful.

[temeculaguy]

Well written Allan, a multi sourced rebuttal, you win since I was keeping score at home.

So when I die, I would like to say right now that i want none of you at my funeral or to remember me in any way shape or form. Based on the thread thus far, there will be arguments about the legitamacy of my 6th grade chess tournament victory, how I treated my 1st girlfriend, whether or not I flossed, if I inhaled and how I came into possession of my first fake I.D., with little to no mention of any of the good things I did with my time on the planet.

Let’s take every story of heroism and try and destroy it with conspiracy theories. Let’s pretend there are never good guys and bad guys, just bad guys.

I know one thing for certain regardless of what brought down the soviets. The people on the fourth plane that somehow mustered the courage to prevent it from being used as a weapon or the people who perished after rushing into the towers before they collapsed. No matter who your god is or what you believe happens to you when you die, if there is an afterlife, they will be seated at the “Big Table” with the “Big Guy or Gal” and we can only hope that we will have the honor of cleaning their dishes. Until that day, I’ll pause once a year to honor them, make promises to them and defend to the death your right as an American to be ungrateful and disrespectful.

[temeculaguy]

Well written Allan, a multi sourced rebuttal, you win since I was keeping score at home.

So when I die, I would like to say right now that i want none of you at my funeral or to remember me in any way shape or form. Based on the thread thus far, there will be arguments about the legitamacy of my 6th grade chess tournament victory, how I treated my 1st girlfriend, whether or not I flossed, if I inhaled and how I came into possession of my first fake I.D., with little to no mention of any of the good things I did with my time on the planet.

Let’s take every story of heroism and try and destroy it with conspiracy theories. Let’s pretend there are never good guys and bad guys, just bad guys.

I know one thing for certain regardless of what brought down the soviets. The people on the fourth plane that somehow mustered the courage to prevent it from being used as a weapon or the people who perished after rushing into the towers before they collapsed. No matter who your god is or what you believe happens to you when you die, if there is an afterlife, they will be seated at the “Big Table” with the “Big Guy or Gal” and we can only hope that we will have the honor of cleaning their dishes. Until that day, I’ll pause once a year to honor them, make promises to them and defend to the death your right as an American to be ungrateful and disrespectful.

[Author]

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