The Pigs are Famous… OK act cool everybody, there a flood of new members on the horizon?

[CA renter]

[quote=Doooh][quote=CA renter]Teachers are “elevated” because of the work they do — It’s an unbelievably difficult and exhausting job, with a tremendous amount of responsibility and liability.[/quote]

Bull $_hit

You’re in need of a Psyc evaluation if you think you work “hard”. We live in a world were words mean nothing if this comes spewing out of your mouth.

Unbelievably difficult, and exhausting… Go dig a ditch and then tell me what hard work is.[/quote]

??????

What experience do you have with teaching? Which district(s) did you work for, and did you work with low-income or “severely emotionally disturbed” students?

BTW, I don’t teach professionally now, and haven’t for almost a decade. I’m speaking from experience — with actual knowledge of what the job entails. I’ve also worked in private industry and oversaw ~300 people in a manufacturing setting, among other things. I’ve worked those hundred-hour weeks in private industry, and can still say for a FACT that working as a teacher was much more difficult and exhausting — and I got paid less for doing it. There is no reason for me to favor public over private industry, as I’ve done both and am out of both.

I’m speaking from actual experience (both, in public and private industry), what are you bringing to the debate? Please bring some useful facts or logic to the argument. Otherwise, you’re just name-calling; and that means you’ve already lost the debate.

[jeeman]

CA Renter,

It may be true that they don’t march every year or complain often, but it does make me roll my eyes when they speak in hyperbole that they are under-compensated and need more, and republicans want kids to be dumb, and that it is not fair that they have to pay into their own retirement. Well, sorry, teachers and unions…the rest of us do.

But I still don’t buy the argument that they are any more special than other professions. Most teachers that I know of went into teaching because they didn’t know what else to do, or they felt like they weren’t able to do other jobs.

If it is a specifically elevated position because they deal with children, then I feel bad for those who are “just stay-at-home-moms”. Somehow, they don’t get the same elevated privilege.

Again, not trying to demean teaching, but I am trying looking at it in a fair light. Maybe it is a hard “white-collar” job, but I can point to hundreds of professions that are much more demanding physically. Deep sea fishing is the most dangerous occupation, and they are feeding our country, but they get nothing.

Just like our President said in his state of the Union…teachers are “special” (to justify pay increases when the rest of us have pay freezes)…and then he talked about giving them more of our tax money to pay them higher salaries, which lead to bigger golden pensions and sweetheart deals for them. It just just spread out over their life, rather than given to them upfront, thus them feeling like they are underpaid.

It is a good debate to have, because our states are going bankrupt over these public employees’ golden parachutes.

[jeeman]

CA Renter,

It may be true that they don’t march every year or complain often, but it does make me roll my eyes when they speak in hyperbole that they are under-compensated and need more, and republicans want kids to be dumb, and that it is not fair that they have to pay into their own retirement. Well, sorry, teachers and unions…the rest of us do.

But I still don’t buy the argument that they are any more special than other professions. Most teachers that I know of went into teaching because they didn’t know what else to do, or they felt like they weren’t able to do other jobs.

If it is a specifically elevated position because they deal with children, then I feel bad for those who are “just stay-at-home-moms”. Somehow, they don’t get the same elevated privilege.

Again, not trying to demean teaching, but I am trying looking at it in a fair light. Maybe it is a hard “white-collar” job, but I can point to hundreds of professions that are much more demanding physically. Deep sea fishing is the most dangerous occupation, and they are feeding our country, but they get nothing.

Just like our President said in his state of the Union…teachers are “special” (to justify pay increases when the rest of us have pay freezes)…and then he talked about giving them more of our tax money to pay them higher salaries, which lead to bigger golden pensions and sweetheart deals for them. It just just spread out over their life, rather than given to them upfront, thus them feeling like they are underpaid.

It is a good debate to have, because our states are going bankrupt over these public employees’ golden parachutes.

[jeeman]

CA Renter,

It may be true that they don’t march every year or complain often, but it does make me roll my eyes when they speak in hyperbole that they are under-compensated and need more, and republicans want kids to be dumb, and that it is not fair that they have to pay into their own retirement. Well, sorry, teachers and unions…the rest of us do.

But I still don’t buy the argument that they are any more special than other professions. Most teachers that I know of went into teaching because they didn’t know what else to do, or they felt like they weren’t able to do other jobs.

If it is a specifically elevated position because they deal with children, then I feel bad for those who are “just stay-at-home-moms”. Somehow, they don’t get the same elevated privilege.

Again, not trying to demean teaching, but I am trying looking at it in a fair light. Maybe it is a hard “white-collar” job, but I can point to hundreds of professions that are much more demanding physically. Deep sea fishing is the most dangerous occupation, and they are feeding our country, but they get nothing.

Just like our President said in his state of the Union…teachers are “special” (to justify pay increases when the rest of us have pay freezes)…and then he talked about giving them more of our tax money to pay them higher salaries, which lead to bigger golden pensions and sweetheart deals for them. It just just spread out over their life, rather than given to them upfront, thus them feeling like they are underpaid.

It is a good debate to have, because our states are going bankrupt over these public employees’ golden parachutes.

[jeeman]

CA Renter,

It may be true that they don’t march every year or complain often, but it does make me roll my eyes when they speak in hyperbole that they are under-compensated and need more, and republicans want kids to be dumb, and that it is not fair that they have to pay into their own retirement. Well, sorry, teachers and unions…the rest of us do.

But I still don’t buy the argument that they are any more special than other professions. Most teachers that I know of went into teaching because they didn’t know what else to do, or they felt like they weren’t able to do other jobs.

If it is a specifically elevated position because they deal with children, then I feel bad for those who are “just stay-at-home-moms”. Somehow, they don’t get the same elevated privilege.

Again, not trying to demean teaching, but I am trying looking at it in a fair light. Maybe it is a hard “white-collar” job, but I can point to hundreds of professions that are much more demanding physically. Deep sea fishing is the most dangerous occupation, and they are feeding our country, but they get nothing.

Just like our President said in his state of the Union…teachers are “special” (to justify pay increases when the rest of us have pay freezes)…and then he talked about giving them more of our tax money to pay them higher salaries, which lead to bigger golden pensions and sweetheart deals for them. It just just spread out over their life, rather than given to them upfront, thus them feeling like they are underpaid.

It is a good debate to have, because our states are going bankrupt over these public employees’ golden parachutes.

[jeeman]

CA Renter,

It may be true that they don’t march every year or complain often, but it does make me roll my eyes when they speak in hyperbole that they are under-compensated and need more, and republicans want kids to be dumb, and that it is not fair that they have to pay into their own retirement. Well, sorry, teachers and unions…the rest of us do.

But I still don’t buy the argument that they are any more special than other professions. Most teachers that I know of went into teaching because they didn’t know what else to do, or they felt like they weren’t able to do other jobs.

If it is a specifically elevated position because they deal with children, then I feel bad for those who are “just stay-at-home-moms”. Somehow, they don’t get the same elevated privilege.

Again, not trying to demean teaching, but I am trying looking at it in a fair light. Maybe it is a hard “white-collar” job, but I can point to hundreds of professions that are much more demanding physically. Deep sea fishing is the most dangerous occupation, and they are feeding our country, but they get nothing.

Just like our President said in his state of the Union…teachers are “special” (to justify pay increases when the rest of us have pay freezes)…and then he talked about giving them more of our tax money to pay them higher salaries, which lead to bigger golden pensions and sweetheart deals for them. It just just spread out over their life, rather than given to them upfront, thus them feeling like they are underpaid.

It is a good debate to have, because our states are going bankrupt over these public employees’ golden parachutes.

[CA renter]

jeeman,

I agree with you that teachers who complain about being underpaid are being ridiculous. IMHO, they are fairly compensated, nothing more, nothing less.

Certainly, there are teachers who go into teaching because that’s all they’ve ever wanted to do, and they go straight from being students in school, to being teachers in school. They tend to lack a broader perspective vs. teachers who go from private to public employment (quite a few, BTW).

Yes, there are many difficult “white collar” jobs, but there are very few that deal with the type of stress that teachers deal with, especially as it relates to difficult students (behaviorally, mentally, physically), and in trying to get a *very diverse* group of students to understand the quality and quantity of material required to “pass the tests,” and/or advance to the next grade.

As for deep-sea fishing…they actually make FAR more than teachers, which can be justified by the very difficult nature of their jobs (I’ve known a few fishermen in my lifetime, and Alaskan fishing is unbelievably hard work, without a doubt). They can make tens of thousands of dollars in a month…far, far more than teachers ever will, even with the highest salary possible with a Ph.D, etc.

I agree that truly difficult work, like deep-sea fishing and ditch digging, should be paid more, but that’s not how our society operates. The highest paid people in our society tend to be those who have the easiest jobs, physically-speaking, but are in charge of money flows (financial industry, C-suite types, etc.). Believe me, I wish it weren’t so…I would love to see that whole compensation system turned inside-out and upside-down, but that is what we have to deal with right now.

Being a SAHM (which I currently am — homeschooling our kids) is not at all like teaching. I cannot overstate the differences between the two.

Let me state emphatically that I am not trying to be the spokesperson for public unions or teachers, etc. But I see a lot of emotional arguments and misinformation on the subject, and feel the need to interject when someone is trying to spread lies as fact — like the “$80K/yr average teacher’s salary,” for instance.

BTW, our states are not going broke because of the unions. They are going broke because of the boom/bust policies of the Federal Reserve.

[CA renter]

jeeman,

I agree with you that teachers who complain about being underpaid are being ridiculous. IMHO, they are fairly compensated, nothing more, nothing less.

Certainly, there are teachers who go into teaching because that’s all they’ve ever wanted to do, and they go straight from being students in school, to being teachers in school. They tend to lack a broader perspective vs. teachers who go from private to public employment (quite a few, BTW).

Yes, there are many difficult “white collar” jobs, but there are very few that deal with the type of stress that teachers deal with, especially as it relates to difficult students (behaviorally, mentally, physically), and in trying to get a *very diverse* group of students to understand the quality and quantity of material required to “pass the tests,” and/or advance to the next grade.

As for deep-sea fishing…they actually make FAR more than teachers, which can be justified by the very difficult nature of their jobs (I’ve known a few fishermen in my lifetime, and Alaskan fishing is unbelievably hard work, without a doubt). They can make tens of thousands of dollars in a month…far, far more than teachers ever will, even with the highest salary possible with a Ph.D, etc.

I agree that truly difficult work, like deep-sea fishing and ditch digging, should be paid more, but that’s not how our society operates. The highest paid people in our society tend to be those who have the easiest jobs, physically-speaking, but are in charge of money flows (financial industry, C-suite types, etc.). Believe me, I wish it weren’t so…I would love to see that whole compensation system turned inside-out and upside-down, but that is what we have to deal with right now.

Being a SAHM (which I currently am — homeschooling our kids) is not at all like teaching. I cannot overstate the differences between the two.

Let me state emphatically that I am not trying to be the spokesperson for public unions or teachers, etc. But I see a lot of emotional arguments and misinformation on the subject, and feel the need to interject when someone is trying to spread lies as fact — like the “$80K/yr average teacher’s salary,” for instance.

BTW, our states are not going broke because of the unions. They are going broke because of the boom/bust policies of the Federal Reserve.

[CA renter]

jeeman,

I agree with you that teachers who complain about being underpaid are being ridiculous. IMHO, they are fairly compensated, nothing more, nothing less.

Certainly, there are teachers who go into teaching because that’s all they’ve ever wanted to do, and they go straight from being students in school, to being teachers in school. They tend to lack a broader perspective vs. teachers who go from private to public employment (quite a few, BTW).

Yes, there are many difficult “white collar” jobs, but there are very few that deal with the type of stress that teachers deal with, especially as it relates to difficult students (behaviorally, mentally, physically), and in trying to get a *very diverse* group of students to understand the quality and quantity of material required to “pass the tests,” and/or advance to the next grade.

As for deep-sea fishing…they actually make FAR more than teachers, which can be justified by the very difficult nature of their jobs (I’ve known a few fishermen in my lifetime, and Alaskan fishing is unbelievably hard work, without a doubt). They can make tens of thousands of dollars in a month…far, far more than teachers ever will, even with the highest salary possible with a Ph.D, etc.

I agree that truly difficult work, like deep-sea fishing and ditch digging, should be paid more, but that’s not how our society operates. The highest paid people in our society tend to be those who have the easiest jobs, physically-speaking, but are in charge of money flows (financial industry, C-suite types, etc.). Believe me, I wish it weren’t so…I would love to see that whole compensation system turned inside-out and upside-down, but that is what we have to deal with right now.

Being a SAHM (which I currently am — homeschooling our kids) is not at all like teaching. I cannot overstate the differences between the two.

Let me state emphatically that I am not trying to be the spokesperson for public unions or teachers, etc. But I see a lot of emotional arguments and misinformation on the subject, and feel the need to interject when someone is trying to spread lies as fact — like the “$80K/yr average teacher’s salary,” for instance.

BTW, our states are not going broke because of the unions. They are going broke because of the boom/bust policies of the Federal Reserve.

[CA renter]

jeeman,

I agree with you that teachers who complain about being underpaid are being ridiculous. IMHO, they are fairly compensated, nothing more, nothing less.

Certainly, there are teachers who go into teaching because that’s all they’ve ever wanted to do, and they go straight from being students in school, to being teachers in school. They tend to lack a broader perspective vs. teachers who go from private to public employment (quite a few, BTW).

Yes, there are many difficult “white collar” jobs, but there are very few that deal with the type of stress that teachers deal with, especially as it relates to difficult students (behaviorally, mentally, physically), and in trying to get a *very diverse* group of students to understand the quality and quantity of material required to “pass the tests,” and/or advance to the next grade.

As for deep-sea fishing…they actually make FAR more than teachers, which can be justified by the very difficult nature of their jobs (I’ve known a few fishermen in my lifetime, and Alaskan fishing is unbelievably hard work, without a doubt). They can make tens of thousands of dollars in a month…far, far more than teachers ever will, even with the highest salary possible with a Ph.D, etc.

I agree that truly difficult work, like deep-sea fishing and ditch digging, should be paid more, but that’s not how our society operates. The highest paid people in our society tend to be those who have the easiest jobs, physically-speaking, but are in charge of money flows (financial industry, C-suite types, etc.). Believe me, I wish it weren’t so…I would love to see that whole compensation system turned inside-out and upside-down, but that is what we have to deal with right now.

Being a SAHM (which I currently am — homeschooling our kids) is not at all like teaching. I cannot overstate the differences between the two.

Let me state emphatically that I am not trying to be the spokesperson for public unions or teachers, etc. But I see a lot of emotional arguments and misinformation on the subject, and feel the need to interject when someone is trying to spread lies as fact — like the “$80K/yr average teacher’s salary,” for instance.

BTW, our states are not going broke because of the unions. They are going broke because of the boom/bust policies of the Federal Reserve.

[CA renter]

jeeman,

I agree with you that teachers who complain about being underpaid are being ridiculous. IMHO, they are fairly compensated, nothing more, nothing less.

Certainly, there are teachers who go into teaching because that’s all they’ve ever wanted to do, and they go straight from being students in school, to being teachers in school. They tend to lack a broader perspective vs. teachers who go from private to public employment (quite a few, BTW).

Yes, there are many difficult “white collar” jobs, but there are very few that deal with the type of stress that teachers deal with, especially as it relates to difficult students (behaviorally, mentally, physically), and in trying to get a *very diverse* group of students to understand the quality and quantity of material required to “pass the tests,” and/or advance to the next grade.

As for deep-sea fishing…they actually make FAR more than teachers, which can be justified by the very difficult nature of their jobs (I’ve known a few fishermen in my lifetime, and Alaskan fishing is unbelievably hard work, without a doubt). They can make tens of thousands of dollars in a month…far, far more than teachers ever will, even with the highest salary possible with a Ph.D, etc.

I agree that truly difficult work, like deep-sea fishing and ditch digging, should be paid more, but that’s not how our society operates. The highest paid people in our society tend to be those who have the easiest jobs, physically-speaking, but are in charge of money flows (financial industry, C-suite types, etc.). Believe me, I wish it weren’t so…I would love to see that whole compensation system turned inside-out and upside-down, but that is what we have to deal with right now.

Being a SAHM (which I currently am — homeschooling our kids) is not at all like teaching. I cannot overstate the differences between the two.

Let me state emphatically that I am not trying to be the spokesperson for public unions or teachers, etc. But I see a lot of emotional arguments and misinformation on the subject, and feel the need to interject when someone is trying to spread lies as fact — like the “$80K/yr average teacher’s salary,” for instance.

BTW, our states are not going broke because of the unions. They are going broke because of the boom/bust policies of the Federal Reserve.

[CA renter]

[quote=Doooh]”Responsibility and Liability”- Start a buisness and then tell me what liability looks like. Operate heavy equipment, drive a tractor cross country then tell me about responsibility.

Liability… you act like you carry a gun for a living.

Teachers piss me off the more they open their mouths. If you haven’t noticed were sick of your over statements while you hold out your hands. It’s hit a boiling point in this society. I could only ask that you keep it up as to piss more people off.

This coming from a chap who wants to go back to school for a credential so I can have summers off.[/quote]

There is no “you” here. I am not a teacher. Do yourself a favor, and debate the topic rather than sling personal insults and spew emotional sludge. You will make better points and be able to use LOGIC and FACTS to convince people about your opinions.

Teachers have far more liabilty and responsibility than someone who operates heavy equipment or drives a truck for a living. They are responsible for people’s children, physically, mentally, and emotionally, every single day. There is no comparison. If a heavy equipment operator screws up and damages property, it’s only money. If a teacher screws up and loses a student or a student gets injured while in the teacher’s care, it’s a human life — not to mention an entire year of that child’s life being “lost” if the teacher doesn’t keep him/her on grade level or better. Lawsuits against teachers and school districts are constantly being fought. You might not have realized that. Any public entity is viewed as a “deep pocket” by the scammers, so they have to be especially careful, which is why they have MUCH HIGHER standards than similar jobs in the private sector.

[CA renter]

[quote=Doooh]”Responsibility and Liability”- Start a buisness and then tell me what liability looks like. Operate heavy equipment, drive a tractor cross country then tell me about responsibility.

Liability… you act like you carry a gun for a living.

Teachers piss me off the more they open their mouths. If you haven’t noticed were sick of your over statements while you hold out your hands. It’s hit a boiling point in this society. I could only ask that you keep it up as to piss more people off.

This coming from a chap who wants to go back to school for a credential so I can have summers off.[/quote]

There is no “you” here. I am not a teacher. Do yourself a favor, and debate the topic rather than sling personal insults and spew emotional sludge. You will make better points and be able to use LOGIC and FACTS to convince people about your opinions.

Teachers have far more liabilty and responsibility than someone who operates heavy equipment or drives a truck for a living. They are responsible for people’s children, physically, mentally, and emotionally, every single day. There is no comparison. If a heavy equipment operator screws up and damages property, it’s only money. If a teacher screws up and loses a student or a student gets injured while in the teacher’s care, it’s a human life — not to mention an entire year of that child’s life being “lost” if the teacher doesn’t keep him/her on grade level or better. Lawsuits against teachers and school districts are constantly being fought. You might not have realized that. Any public entity is viewed as a “deep pocket” by the scammers, so they have to be especially careful, which is why they have MUCH HIGHER standards than similar jobs in the private sector.

[CA renter]

[quote=Doooh]”Responsibility and Liability”- Start a buisness and then tell me what liability looks like. Operate heavy equipment, drive a tractor cross country then tell me about responsibility.

Liability… you act like you carry a gun for a living.

Teachers piss me off the more they open their mouths. If you haven’t noticed were sick of your over statements while you hold out your hands. It’s hit a boiling point in this society. I could only ask that you keep it up as to piss more people off.

This coming from a chap who wants to go back to school for a credential so I can have summers off.[/quote]

There is no “you” here. I am not a teacher. Do yourself a favor, and debate the topic rather than sling personal insults and spew emotional sludge. You will make better points and be able to use LOGIC and FACTS to convince people about your opinions.

Teachers have far more liabilty and responsibility than someone who operates heavy equipment or drives a truck for a living. They are responsible for people’s children, physically, mentally, and emotionally, every single day. There is no comparison. If a heavy equipment operator screws up and damages property, it’s only money. If a teacher screws up and loses a student or a student gets injured while in the teacher’s care, it’s a human life — not to mention an entire year of that child’s life being “lost” if the teacher doesn’t keep him/her on grade level or better. Lawsuits against teachers and school districts are constantly being fought. You might not have realized that. Any public entity is viewed as a “deep pocket” by the scammers, so they have to be especially careful, which is why they have MUCH HIGHER standards than similar jobs in the private sector.

[CA renter]

[quote=Doooh]”Responsibility and Liability”- Start a buisness and then tell me what liability looks like. Operate heavy equipment, drive a tractor cross country then tell me about responsibility.

Liability… you act like you carry a gun for a living.

Teachers piss me off the more they open their mouths. If you haven’t noticed were sick of your over statements while you hold out your hands. It’s hit a boiling point in this society. I could only ask that you keep it up as to piss more people off.

This coming from a chap who wants to go back to school for a credential so I can have summers off.[/quote]

There is no “you” here. I am not a teacher. Do yourself a favor, and debate the topic rather than sling personal insults and spew emotional sludge. You will make better points and be able to use LOGIC and FACTS to convince people about your opinions.

Teachers have far more liabilty and responsibility than someone who operates heavy equipment or drives a truck for a living. They are responsible for people’s children, physically, mentally, and emotionally, every single day. There is no comparison. If a heavy equipment operator screws up and damages property, it’s only money. If a teacher screws up and loses a student or a student gets injured while in the teacher’s care, it’s a human life — not to mention an entire year of that child’s life being “lost” if the teacher doesn’t keep him/her on grade level or better. Lawsuits against teachers and school districts are constantly being fought. You might not have realized that. Any public entity is viewed as a “deep pocket” by the scammers, so they have to be especially careful, which is why they have MUCH HIGHER standards than similar jobs in the private sector.

[Author]

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