ROFLMAO: Oh no! Trump talked to Taiwan!

[no_such_reality]

The horror!

The arrogance!

[Coronita]

Lol. I laughed.

China sure got its panties all bunched up.
.or maybe that’s Trump’s plan afterall, and he’s smarter than people give him credit for.

[ocrenter]

[quote=flu]Lol. I laughed.

China sure got its panties all bunched up.
.or maybe that’s Trump’s plan afterall, and he’s smarter than people give him credit for.[/quote]

remember China’s nickname in Taiwan: mighty nation with fragile crystalline hearts

[FlyerInHi]

Trump is probably too ignorant to know the Taiwan implications. If the president of Taiwan (or any other country) calls to congratulate, he’d be like “oh, ok. Put him through”.

Taiwan played him. There is no protocol and few gatekeepers to reach a president-elect.

[ocrenter]

[quote=FlyerInHi]Trump is probably too ignorant to know the Taiwan implications. If the president of Taiwan (or any other country) calls to congratulate, he’d be like “oh, ok. Put him through”.

Taiwan played him. There is no protocol and few gatekeepers to reach a president-elect.[/quote]

that’s the typical liberal portrayal and narrative of Trump that they are pushing. I have come to believe that is definitely not the case.

in this case, I’m sure he was briefed on the topic and decided to “say it like it is” and cry out that the emperor (one china policy) has no cloth.

I have read a lot of articles on this since last night, and it isn’t just China getting all worked up, every single liberal media outlet are all in a huge panic.

Brian, this thing is well played by Trump and it makes liberals look really really bad. afterall, Taiwan is the good guys here and the liberals are looking like a bunch of appeasement happy lackeys ready to kowtow to China at every step of the way.

[FlyerInHi]

Is that why Trump killed TPP? Because he doesn’t want to kowtow to China?
Well China is not in TPP. Do you think his ignorant, uneducated supporters know that?

Vietnam, the country that would benefit the most from TPP, in now kissing China’s ass because there won’t be preferential trade with the US. Same goes for the Phillipines and Australia. Anyone challenging China on the South China Sea island military buildup and oil drilling? Not much anymore. We turned our backs on our allies and they now need China. China won. The emperor looks well dressed to me.

You enable Trump, you will be responsible for his actions that harm us.

[ocrenter]

[quote=FlyerInHi]Is that why Trump killed TPP? Because he doesn’t want to kowtow to China?
Well China is not in TPP. Do you think his ignorant, uneducated supporters know that?

Vietnam, the country that would benefit the most from TPP, in now kissing China’s ass because there won’t be preferential trade with the US. Same goes for the Phillipines and Australia. Anyone challenging China on the South China Sea island military buildup and oil drilling? Not much anymore. We turned our backs on our allies and they now need China. China won. The emperor looks well dressed to me.

You enable Trump, you will be responsible for his actions that harm us.[/quote]

Clinton was going to kill TPP too. The pendulum swung way to the side of protectionism this year for anyone to be able to move forward with TPP. Do you really think it would even pass congress? No chance in hell.

Everyone are trying to play both sides, no one is putting all eggs in one basket at this time. You do that and you’ll get fried. Why do you think the KMT did so poorly in Taiwan?

As for the issue at hand, Taiwan will be used for domestic and foreign purposes. Domestically like I said the liberals are coming out of this one looking like they support an authoritarian fascist regime against a model citizen in democracy. Internationally this gives Trump the bargaining chip he needs in trade talks with China.

Taiwan of course know they are being played too. But a small shrimp has to take up the protection the US offers when faced with an eternal threat of forced annexation and gradual suffocation.

[FlyerInHi]

Ha, Trump embracing a young democracy. That’s why he’s kissing Putin’s ass and criticizing NATO while Ukraine is torn apart by Russian backed separatists.

On Taiwan, yeah the phone call was all great PR for Taiwan but there’s nothing in it for us. We need our allies in the Pacific to push back against China’s territorial and maritime claims. For that to happen we need to have their backs.

Trump fucked up by answering the phone call from the president of Taiwan who’s not even his equal in protocol. You know, Trump, the guy who’s all about image and red carpets.

[ocrenter]

[quote=FlyerInHi]Ha, Trump embracing a young democracy. That’s why he’s kissing Putin’s ass and criticizing NATO while Ukraine is torn apart by Russian backed separatists.

On Taiwan, yeah the phone call was all great PR for Taiwan but there’s nothing in it for us. We need our allies in the Pacific to push back against China’s territorial and maritime claims. For that to happen we need to have their backs.

Trump fucked up by answering the phone call from the president of Taiwan who’s not even his equal in protocol. You know, Trump, the guy who’s all about image and red carpets.[/quote]

she’s the sitting president of a sovereign nation, what do you mean not even his equal.

Taiwan is part of that push back in case you forgot.

[FlyerInHi]

Sovereign nation has meaning in international law. Taiwan is not.

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=ocrenter]
Internationally this gives Trump the bargaining chip he needs in trade talks with China.
[/quote]

What trade talks? China is part of WTO.
The US can impose some unilateral sanctions. But it doesn’t need Taiwan for that.

[quote=ocrenter]
Taiwan of course know they are being played too. But a small shrimp has to take up the protection the US offers when faced with an eternal threat of forced annexation and gradual suffocation.[/quote]

Maybe I’m missing something but I fail to see the strategy in Trump’s part. Another secret plan, I presume.

The phone call is all to Taiwan’s benefit and it’s independence movement. Well played on their part.

[no_such_reality]

Whatever.

Seriously, the complicated, delicate, decades long diplomatic relations that Trump doesn’t get the nuances off frankly have all the look and issues of a middle school mean girls clique.

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=no_such_reality]Whatever.

Seriously, the complicated, delicate, decades long diplomatic relations that Trump doesn’t get the nuances off frankly have all the look and issues of a middle school mean girls clique.[/quote]

Oh really, the century long international order we, America, established is childish? Throw the protocol out and argue whatever you want?

It’s like going to court and saying the rules and procedures don’t apply because they are stupid, in your opinion.

What about conservatism, which means respecting long established traditions?

The simple issue here is that Taiwan, not recognized by the UN, which the US is a founding member, should not have direct access to the future US President, the leader of the free world. There is a process for that.

[Anonymous]

[quote=no_such_reality]Whatever.

Seriously, the complicated, delicate, decades long diplomatic relations that Trump doesn’t get the nuances off frankly have all the look and issues of a middle school mean girls clique.[/quote]

And the the rival cliques have nuclear weapons. Just like junior high school.

[FlyerInHi]

Rolling on the floor laughing my ass off… China played hard to get and Trump wrote a letter asking her out on a date.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/02/09/call-me-maybe-president-trump-reaches-out-to-chinas-xi-in-a-letter/?utm_term=.1bb5d14fceb6

You know, in decades past, White boys like Trump thought that Asian girls were easy to get. Good luck now; all the desirable ones have doctorates, lunch at Din Tai Fung and shop at Louis Vuitton.

[ucodegen]

[quote=FlyerInHi]Trump is probably too ignorant to know the Taiwan implications. If the president of Taiwan (or any other country) calls to congratulate, he’d be like “oh, ok. Put him through”.

Taiwan played him. There is no protocol and few gatekeepers to reach a president-elect.[/quote]
Wrong – I have seen some of the Defense contracts between Taiwan and China. The act tends to put more of an honest face to what has really been going on behind the scenes. By the way, what aircraft (fighters) does Taiwan fly? Who provides their training? (for me, this question is rhetorical – but the answers are kind of revealing).

China has been getting pushy with the Spratly Islands, the US has been tip-toe’ing around that too much.

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=ucodegen]
China has been getting pushy with the Spratly Islands, the US has been tip-toe’ing around that too much.[/quote]

Tough talkers are so funny….

We don’t have standing to challenge China. The Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia do. They are only 2 ways to enable them. Do business with them or provide them with weapons. 2 things that Trump doesn’t want to do. Do you think they have incentives to antagonize their biggest trading partner, China?

[ucodegen]

[quote=FlyerInHi][quote=ucodegen]
China has been getting pushy with the Spratly Islands, the US has been tip-toe’ing around that too much.[/quote]

Tough talkers are so funny….

We don’t have standing to challenge China. The Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia do. They are only 2 ways to enable them. Do business with them or provide them with weapons. 2 things that Trump doesn’t want to do. Do you think they have incentives to antagonize their biggest trading partner, China?[/quote]
So you have the opinion that the strongest should be able to take whatever they want within their area of ‘influence’? Those three other nations have standing and brought it to international court. China lost but does not want to be bound by the decision. The Philippines, Vietnam and Malaysia don’t stand much of a chance against China in a confrontation.

We actually do have standing because the area involved contains international shipping lanes that are used by the United States as well as several other nations. We also have standing because we and all other nations follow a 12 mile rule on maritime borders. Standing does not require trying to lay claim to the area. It may also involve trying to keep the area open for all to use – since it has historically been used that way before China’s invention of ownership.

[Anonymous]

International courts.

Selectively relevant.

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=ucodegen]
So you have the opinion that the strongest should be able to take whatever they want within their area of ‘influence’? Those three other nations have standing and brought it to international court. China lost but does not want to be bound by the decision. The Philippines, Vietnam and Malaysia don’t stand much of a chance against China in a confrontation.

We actually do have standing because the area involved contains international shipping lanes that are used by the United States as well as several other nations. We also have standing because we and all other nations follow a 12 mile rule on maritime borders. Standing does not require trying to lay claim to the area. It may also involve trying to keep the area open for all to use – since it has historically been used that way before China’s invention of ownership.[/quote]

Which brings us back to the point that the USA is the world’s policeman who will act unilaterally, at great expense — the very thing that Trump and his folks consistently whine about. Can’t be tough and bitch about cost.

I have a male cousin who claims to be head of the family because he’s eldest. He always gets upset that he’s not consulted. But that not how it works…. The male head of the family is assertive, makes decisions, and lays out his own money to get things done. He doesn’t whine like a baby and expect people to share costs with him.

[ocrenter]

Brian, you being the leading liberal here on Piggington, just a question I have had for while now:

there seem to be a consistent anti-Taiwan sentiment among most liberals in my readings throughout the years. Maybe this is based on the fact that the right leaning KMT escaped there, where as China represented the proletarian revolutionary class.

However, things are very different now. China is all about capitalism and right winged nationalism, whereas Taiwan is a genuine democracy that is the most progressive in all of Asia. It has every liberals in this country would absolutely die for: Universal health coverage, gun control, upcoming in a couple of weeks legalized gay marriage, and within just a few more years abolishment of the death penalty.

yet there is still zero love for Taiwan by the left.

can you explain this for me?

[FlyerInHi]

I don’t follow Taiwan’s politics. I just read some international papers, but I believe that Taiwan still pretends to represent all of China though there is an independence movement.

I wish Taiwan all the best, but China is 14% of international trade vs 12% for the US.

Too late now to support Taiwan independence, and not worth the tradeoffs and war. Better to engage China.

I honestly don’t think that Trump knows anything about Taiwan.
“Mr Trump, we have the president of the Republic of China on the line”.
Trump to self: “wow, I’m a big dude, they are groveling before me like Mitt Romney.”

Trump and his uneducated supporters: “China, Taiwan, same shit. The liberal elitists are splitting hair.”

[ocrenter]

[quote=FlyerInHi]I don’t follow Taiwan’s politics. I just read some international papers, but I believe that Taiwan still pretends to represent all of China though there is an independence movement.

I wish Taiwan all the best, but China is 14% of international trade vs 12% for the US.

Too late now to support Taiwan independence, and not worth the tradeoffs and war. Better to engage China.

I honestly don’t think that Trump knows anything about Taiwan.
“Mr Trump, we have the president of the Republic of China on the line”.
Trump to self: “wow, I’m a big dude, they are groveling before me like Mitt Romney.”

Trump and his uneducated supporters: “China, Taiwan, same shit. The liberal elitists are splitting hair.”[/quote]

FYI, Taiwan doesn’t pretend to be all of China and Mongolia. The Republic of China moniker is the reason for that age old misnomer.

Liberal elitism is nothing more than appeasement to the strong and powerful.

Taiwan is sovereign and independent, much more so than failed liberal pet projects like South Sudan.

Although you did not answer the root cause for liberal disdain of Taiwan, you do confirm that stereotype.

I’m quite glad Trump is the president after our convo today, thank you.

[no_such_reality]

Yep, a lot like listening to a middle school girl rationalizing why she’s ostracizing Becky because Cindy Clique leader says so.

It really doesn’t matter what Trump does, the people complaining are going to complain.

[scaredyclassic]

im fine with it, as long as hes thought it through and has a strategy.

seems unlikely, but possible.

i think he goes for it, whatever it is.

worked for him so far.

makes me nervous tho.

also hes fat. little tiny penis too.

i am praying at him.

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=no_such_reality]Yep, a lot like listening to a middle school girl rationalizing why she’s ostracizing Becky because Cindy Clique leader says so.

It really doesn’t matter what Trump does, the people complaining are going to complain.[/quote]

The thing is that Trump is upending decades long US policy. That makes us look bad and unreliable. Makes him seem ignorant of policy.

Supporting Taiwan independence would be something that requires years of planning, and secret negotiations, like the reestablishment of relations with Cuba.

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=ocrenter]

I’m quite glad Trump is the president after our convo today, thank you.[/quote]

Knowing China, there will be a price to pay for this indiscretion, so you may not be glad after all.

International relations is all about a grand game of reciprocity among the major powers. Don’t do anything that isn’t well thought out. Trump is harming US interests for doing things that don’t accrue benefits.

BTW, the Republican lame duck congress would have passed TPP if Hillary had won and Obama would have signed. The rejection of TPP shows failure of US policy in the Pacific, a retreating of the US, and years of negotiating hard work down the drain. We are weaker and China is stronger.

[ocrenter]

[quote=FlyerInHi]

Knowing China, there will be a price to pay for this indiscretion, so you may not be glad after all.

International relations is all about a grand game of reciprocity among the major powers. Don’t do anything that isn’t well thought out. Trump is harming US interests for doing things that don’t accrue benefits.

BTW, the Republican lame duck congress would have passed TPP if Hillary had won and Obama would have signed. The rejection of TPP shows failure of US policy in the Pacific, a retreating of the US, and years of negotiating hard work down the drain. We are weaker and China is stronger.[/quote]

I would have wanted TPP as well. but remember the GOP won congress, so I’m not quite sure where you get the idea that they would have allowed TPP to pass.

Regarding China, appeasement doesn’t work. Remember nationalism is strong and growing, and every step given is just looked at as something that was rightfully theirs to begin with. the KMT appeased China for the last 8 years and Taiwan’s space got smaller still. the strategy of keeping Taiwan in the closet wasn’t working. sometimes you need someone to point out the obvious.

[NotCranky]

Blame Trump for not wanting to offend Russian and also for offending China is not consistent with appeasing all super powers. Which way should it be?

[ocrenter]

This is an anonymous letter from one liberal social activist to another, on the recent uproar over US President-Elect Trump’s call with Taiwan’s President Tsai Ing-wen.

Dear Social Activist Friend,

I hope you are staying strong in the wake of this election! The aftermath has been struggle, and it’s important that we all support each other in trying times. I’ve definitely appreciated your encouraging messages these last few weeks about Black Lives Matter, defending American democracy, and the Dakota Access Pipeline protests.

Since you and I are very much in sync on the issues we care about, I wanted to reach out to you about the country of Taiwan, which the media has covered these past few days. I’ve already seen activists attack Trump for having a phone call with the president of Taiwan, citing fears that it will anger China. But while it seems natural to use this incident to bash the president-elect, the call isn’t what the media has made it out to be. I was hoping to share a different perspective, so we can look at the actual substance of America’s relationship with Taiwan.

Despite having only 23 million people, Taiwan is one of America’s largest trading partners—it ranked 9th last year. And we are their 2nd largest trading partner, so it’s evident that our two nations have a close commercial relationship. (For example, regardless of its brand, your laptop computer was probably made by a Taiwanese company.)

Taiwan is a successful democracy. It elected its first female president in January of this year, which was a massively historic event. Her name is Tsai Ing-wen, and her championing of social justice and economic issues won her broad support, including young people, the working class and the middle class. Taiwan’s legislature is poised to legalize gay marriage, as The New York Times has reported, which would make it the first country in Asia to do so. Oh, and did I mention, that it has universal healthcare?

Ever since the U.S. Congress passed the Taiwan Relations Act, in an overwhelmingly bipartisan way, to legally authorize many types of ties between our nations, America has continued to contribute to Taiwan’s defense.

The media has missed both the contemporary and historic context. While the Carter Administration broke “official” ties with Taiwan in 1979 to try to cozy up to China, the United States has kept up strong commercial, cultural and other relations up through present day. Trade and military exchanges happen on a periodic basis, and we have what amounts to an embassy in Taipei, the country’s capital. (We’re technically just not allowed to call it an “embassy,” although it is staffed by State Department foreign officers.)

While the United States may “acknowledge” that China has made a claim that it should be allowed to take over its democratic neighbor Taiwan, our government certainly does not “recognize” the validity of this claim. The difference between those words matters in international affairs.

Even though Trump is a problematic president-elect who has said things that harm democracy in the United States, in this instance, he’s actually done a very simple and decent thing: he had a friendly phone call with the leader of one of our closest trading partners and allies. Perhaps this action appears to flout certain diplomatic practices, but in my mind, it’s actually a good thing to try to talk more with our friends. Talking doesn’t imply that any major policy changes have taken place; it’s simply a chance to have a dialogue so we understand each other better.

On issues of trade, the environment, and security cooperation, increasing numbers of scholars and experts (including people on both sides of the political aisle, who have served in China, in Taiwan, and in Washington D.C.) are questioning why we must keep Taiwanese representatives at a distance, solely based on a set of rules drafted by the Carter White House 37 years ago, as part of persuading China to help us oppose the Soviet Union.

Let’s not lump in a friendly phone call to Taiwan with Trump’s very real problems, such as his conflicts of interest, ill treatment of minorities, and pledges to “build the wall.” Rather than jumping to conclusions about whether something is good or bad, right or wrong, depending on what Trump thinks about it, I hope we can look at issue on their own terms.

Whatever Trump’s intentions with the call, the act of supporting a small democratic country is something I think all Americans can get behind. After the repeated scares about Russia they had to endure during the presidential campaign, our NATO allies Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania (populations or 1.3 million, 2 million, and 3 million) might be feeling a little bit better now. The same goes for the people of Taiwan, who have long been concerned about China trying to suppress them with political threats and military force.

I don’t think anyone intends to help big countries bully small ones, but by not being up to speed on the issues, the American media has unintentionally parroted the lines commonly used by the authoritarian Chinese regime—it’s quite unfortunate. Hopefully reporters will strive to be more informed next time, instead of punting an entire democratic nation like a political football, just to score anti-Trump points. But it will take folks like you and me getting the facts right and staying engaged, so we can make sure news organizations report more accurately in the future.

I completely stand with you, as we fight for human rights, spur action on climate change, remain vigilant about the Trump administration’s shenanigans, defend our POC/LGBT/working class brothers and sisters, and strive to achieve social justice for all. Let’s do the same for our democratic friends in Taiwan.

In solidarity,

Your fellow American

P.S. I think you’d love Taiwan’s president Tsai Ing-wen. She’s a very smart lady with a great sense of humor (who also loves cats) http://qz.com/596269/taiwans-new-president-is-a-female-academic-who-loves-cats-and-supports-gay-rights

[Anonymous]

[quote=ocrenter]This is an anonymous letter from one liberal [/quote]

It seems can’t go more than few sentences without saying the word “liberal”

Obsessed much?

[ocrenter]

[quote=harvey][quote=ocrenter]This is an anonymous letter from one liberal [/quote]

It seems can’t go more than few sentences without saying the word “liberal”

Obsessed much?[/quote]

This whole liberal disdain of progressive Taiwan is an odd observation that others have picked up as well, in fact, concerned enough to actually generate a letter to their fellow liberals. Thought I would share it here especially with our resident liberal representative, who also has very low opinion of a place that beat the US to a woman president, universal health coverage, and will enact a law for gay marriage (a bit different in court overturning gay marriage ban).

[Anonymous]

[quote=ocrenter][quote=harvey][quote=ocrenter]This is an anonymous letter from one liberal [/quote]

It seems can’t go more than few sentences without saying the word “liberal”

Obsessed much?[/quote]

This whole liberal …[/quote]

Yup, obsessed.

[no_such_reality]

[quote=ocrenter]Let’s not lump in a friendly phone call to Taiwan with Trump’s very real problems, such as his conflicts of interest, ill treatment of minorities, and pledges to “build the wall.” Rather than jumping to conclusions about whether something is good or bad, right or wrong, depending on what Trump thinks about it, I hope we can look at issue on their own terms.[/quote]

That’s the nutshell. Trump says it == bad, Trump doesn’t like it == “good”.

If it wasn’t so sad, I’d chuckle, but since I have a large contingent of friends still visible via facebook in the midwest, I get see one side sharing their fakenews praising Obama for ending the DAPL standoff while the other side sharing their fakenews about the America haters in the world getting an ass pucker by Trump naming ‘Mad Dog’.

All the while it seems more and more everyday like the world really does run like 1970s/1980s high school with jocks, geeks, bullies and popular cliques. The EU and America is being run by the nerdy kids and the rest of the world has the likes of Putin, Assad, Rousseff.

The Western leaders are planning a nice prom and acting like were all going to go sing kumbaya, solve climate change and be happy, but all the regular high school kids know somebody is getting pigs blood dumped on them.

Yea, it’s a cynical take and I’m sure it’s “much more complex”

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=no_such_reality]
The EU and America is being run by the nerdy kids and the rest of the world has the likes of Putin, Assad, Rousseff.

The Western leaders are planning a nice prom and acting like were all going to go sing kumbaya, solve climate change and be happy, but all the regular high school kids know somebody is getting pigs blood dumped on them.

Yea, it’s a cynical take and I’m sure it’s “much more complex”[/quote]

And Trump and his raging supporters have engineered a coup. They want to govern through the sheer personality of their leader. Not the rule of law, but threats of consequences, like in Russia.

BTW, the nerds in HS are the ones who study and plan college applications early. They succeed in life.

People of low education want to reduce everything to the basest of human instincts, maybe the way they live. They think that nuances and complexities are needless elitism. In fact, civilization is all about complexities and artifices we develop to contain base instincts.

Sorry, but eating pizza on the couch is not the same a eating a well prepared meal at the table with silverware. It’s eating all the same, but the former act is low class survival, the latter is civilized.

[Ribbles]

[quote=FlyerInHi]
Sorry, but eating pizza on the couch is not the same a eating a well prepared meal at the table with silverware. It’s eating all the same, but the former act is low class survival, the latter is civilized.[/quote]Check out a series of videos called “Village Food Factory” on youtube. Curious if you would consider that low class survival or civilized. I would be honored to eat with them.

I agree, though. I would eat at the dining room table if we didn’t have a giant guinea pig cage on it.

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=Ribbles]Check out a series of videos called “Village Food Factory” on youtube. Curious if you would consider that low class survival or civilized. I would be honored to eat with them.
[/quote]

I just checked it out. We are all looking for the noble savage, unspoiled by civilization.

[Coronita]

So originally I thinking that the U.S. was going to be messed up with Trump at the helm, while the rest of the world more organized is going to jump ahead of the U.S.

I’m beginning to think of the opposite. Maybe it’s Trump’s genius to do this. Or maybe it’s just his plain ignorance that ends up producing the same results….But the scenario I’m thinking is that by a few subtle things Trump does, he ends up causing so much conflict abroad, that the rest of the world ends up being just as screwed up, if not more screwed up, than we will be.

Take this taiwan/china issue. In one little phone call, if Trump manages to destabilize Asia, that’s pretty impressive. I mean, combined with the idea of U.S. pulling out of Asia politics, I wonder if this would start an arms race back there. The greatest threat to progress is if you have with ethnicity get into conflict with themselves. And this China/Taiwan spat might just do the trick back there. Although my roots is Taiwanese and I am pro-taiwan independence…I’d like to get the point that we don’t split hairs and say things like “I’m not chinese, I’m taiwanese” and vice versus. It doesn’t help the greater cause for asians in the 21st century, imho. And I personally wouldn’t want to see either Taiwan or China fail, since I have no desire to seeing us asians set back in progress.

edit:

looks like it was intentional…
http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/nation-world/ct-donald-trump-taiwan-call-20161204-story.html

[an]

[quote=flu]looks like it was intentional…
http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/nation-world/ct-donald-trump-taiwan-call-20161204-story.html%5B/quote%5D
Must be intentional ignorance as Brian would like to say. He planned for months to be ignorance.

[ocrenter]

[quote=flu]So originally I thinking that the U.S. was going to be messed up with Trump at the helm, while the rest of the world more organized is going to jump ahead of the U.S.

I’m beginning to think of the opposite. Maybe it’s Trump’s genius to do this. Or maybe it’s just his plain ignorance that ends up producing the same results….But the scenario I’m thinking is that by a few subtle things Trump does, he ends up causing so much conflict abroad, that the rest of the world ends up being just as screwed up, if not more screwed up, than we will be.

Take this taiwan/china issue. In one little phone call, if Trump manages to destabilize Asia, that’s pretty impressive. I mean, combined with the idea of U.S. pulling out of Asia politics, I wonder if this would start an arms race back there. The greatest threat to progress is if you have with ethnicity get into conflict with themselves. And this China/Taiwan spat might just do the trick back there. Although my roots is Taiwanese and I am pro-taiwan independence…I’d like to get the point that we don’t split hairs and say things like “I’m not chinese, I’m taiwanese” and vice versus. It doesn’t help the greater cause for asians in the 21st century, imho. And I personally wouldn’t want to see either Taiwan or China fail, since I have no desire to seeing us asians set back in progress.

edit:

looks like it was intentional…
http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/nation-world/ct-donald-trump-taiwan-call-20161204-story.html%5B/quote%5D

I felt it to be intentional as well. Quite frankly, if all it takes is a phone call to upset the apple cart, the Emperor really has no cloth! And I think that’s Trump is getting at: that China huffs and puffs a lot but liberal appeasement is silly and I’m going to show you why.

As for China, it has a lot going for it. But the danger of unbridled nationalism lurks and quite frankly frequently flamed on by the CCP. Taiwan is China’s Sudetenland. The moment China gets Taiwan, its nationalism would be raging, with the Philippines just 200 miles away and the nearest Japanese islet just 70 miles away, the temptation to “erase past humiliation” would be far too great to resist.

Taiwanese independence is ultimately good for China, there’s a competing model of governance within the same cultural sphere, it keeps the CCP on their toes.

[FlyerInHi]

In diplomacy there is protocol. We would be upset if Russia or China had direct presidential contact with the Palestinians.

NSR, yes the developed world is by and large run by think tanks and the professorial types; and that’s the way it should be. That’s how we achieve the rule of law (international law in this case) and stability. We don’t want capricious leaders doing acting on a whim, upsetting markets, and causing loss of wealth.

[FlyerInHi]

OCR, we already recognized that Taiwan is part of China.

What’s good for China is for them to decide. Is it our job to interference in their affairs?

We are better working with the other countries in the Pacific and develop our own sphere of influence, so they lean to our side.

[ocrenter]

[quote=FlyerInHi]OCR, we already recognized that Taiwan is part of China.

What’s good for China is for them to decide. Is it our job to interference in their affairs?

We are better working with the other countries in the Pacific and develop our own sphere of influence, so they lean to our side.[/quote]

silly Brian, the US “acknowledges” Chinese claim on Taiwan, but we do not recognize Taiwan is part of China.

I thought you are skilled in the intricacies of diplomacy?

If it is up to China to decide, they would decide to march in a few decades ago.

I think what I’m hearing overall is let China recreate their old tributary system in the Western Pacific and we just withdraw into our own little circle in North America. If you have it your way why did we even extend the NATO umbrella to the Baltic countries?

[FlyerInHi]

Well, the baltic countries are sovereign nations with seats at the UN.

Taiwan does not even have consensus within the island on independence. . In fact, the KMT still asserts claims to all of China.

I don’t think Taiwan is our job.

We should work with the countries in the Pacific to establish a trade and political sphere where we lead. The problem now is that trade with China is so big that Pacific rim countries have no choice but to acquiesce to China. Not so good for us. What is Trump gonna do about it?

[ocrenter]

[quote=FlyerInHi]Well, the baltic countries are sovereign nations with seats at the UN.

Taiwan does not even have consensus within the island on independence. . In fact, the KMT still asserts claims to all of China.

I don’t think Taiwan is our job.

We should work with the countries in the Pacific to establish a trade and political sphere where we lead. The problem now is that trade with China is so big that Pacific rim countries have no choice but to acquiesce to China. Not so good for us. What is Trump gonna do about it?[/quote]

Spoken like a true leftist proletarian. This is the domestic benefit Trump was looking for, to paint the left leaning media as appeasers and biased. Boy did he succeed on this account.

As for the KMT, you are aware of how badly the KMT has been doing in Taiwan, right? Of the 113 seats in the legislature, it was left with 35 seats, essentially a 30% representation. Of the cities and counties within Taiwan, it retains one metropolis out of six, and otherwise only control two off shore islands, the central mountainous county of Nantou and the poorest agrarian county of Mauli. Only 3.5% of all Taiwanese think of themselves as pure Chinese, only 9% wishes to consider future unification. So the island pretty much has consensus.

You are right, it isn’t really our job. Just like it really isn’t our job to station troops in S.Korea and Japan and we are pretty much the de facto navy for the Philippines. But we are. Luckily for you, if Taiwan goes, there goes all of that extra responsibility that weren’t really our job in the first place.

Maybe then those Filipinos and Japanese will truly taste the proletarian paradise that the 14 billion Chinese has had the pleasure of enjoying for the last 67 years.

[FlyerInHi]

I don’t know, OCR, China has done pretty well compared to the Phillipines. The Phillipines was the richest country after WWII, and it’s fallen steadily behind the other countries the region.

If there a war for Taiwan independence, what do you think happens to the substantial wealth in China owned by Taiwanese businessmen?

[ocrenter]

[quote=FlyerInHi]I don’t know, OCR, China has done pretty well compared to the Phillipines. The Phillipines was the richest country after WWII, and it’s fallen steadily behind the other countries the region.

If there a war for Taiwan independence, what do you think happens to the substantial wealth in China owned by Taiwanese businessmen?[/quote]

True, but the Philippines also did not have 78 million death from the Great Leap Forward and the cultural revolution. The Philippines was the richest due to US involvement, but was the “richness” real? This is like saying Puerto Rico is the richest in the Caribbean, but that’s due to US tax breaks and social services and handouts, why do you think PR can have independence and chose not to.

Most likely a lot of the Taiwanese businesses will be forced to swear allegiance to China, but they already do now. In addition, funds can’t be repatriated to Taiwan to cook up the housing prices. (You know that’s why Taipei real estate is the most inflated in the world compared to wage right? Repatriated money from China just go into buying real estate, that’s why). China will likely invade Kinmen and Matsu and claim victory as well. China doesn’t have capability to launch amphibious invasion of the Taiwanese mainland.

[Anonymous]

[quote=ocrenter][quote=FlyerInHi]Well, the baltic countries are sovereign nations with seats at the UN.

Taiwan does not even have consensus within the island on independence. . In fact, the KMT still asserts claims to all of China.

I don’t think Taiwan is our job.

We should work with the countries in the Pacific to establish a trade and political sphere where we lead. The problem now is that trade with China is so big that Pacific rim countries have no choice but to acquiesce to China. Not so good for us. What is Trump gonna do about it?[/quote]

Spoken like a true leftist proletarian. [/quote]

Thanks for mixing it up a little.

[Anonymous]

Trump’s is trying to present himself as being unconventional with his twitter posts and little gestures like this Taiwan thing.

Look at his cabinet and it’s a different story. Same old, same old.

For the next four years his fanboys will be enamored by the novelty of his little media tricks.

But his economic policies are going to be mostly classic Republican style trickle-down with a little middle-class welfare to boost the numbers (e.g. the Carrier “deal”) There’s nothing novel about the substance of his policy.

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=harvey]Trump’s is trying to present himself as being unconventional with his twitter posts and little gestures like this Taiwan thing.

Look at his cabinet and it’s a different story. Same old, same old.

For the next four years his fanboys will be enamored by the novelty of his little media tricks.

But his economic policies are going to be mostly classic Republican style trickle-down with a little middle-class welfare to boost the numbers (e.g. the Carrier “deal”) There’s nothing novel about the substance of his policy.[/quote]

I look forward to asking Trump supporters in the rust belt “how’s hopey changey workin’ for ya?”

[FlyerInHi]

China is building military installations in the Pacific. Putin is winning.

TPP is dead so Pacific Rim countries can’t resist China.

With Trump, looks like the leader of the world will be Putin.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/china-puts-new-weapons-on-south-china-sea-islands-report-says/2016/12/15/c02f67e8-c2a1-11e6-aa03-f2e1260448ff_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_southchinasea-7a%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.9aa7478d61e7

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/the-kremlin-likes-the-hacking-attention-but-not-the-blame/2016/12/14/65279738-c177-11e6-92e8-c07f4f671da4_story.html?utm_term=.cceb31faefbb

[no_such_reality]

[quote=FlyerInHi]China is building military installations in the Pacific. Putin is winning.

TPP is dead so Pacific Rim countries can’t resist China.

With Trump, looks like the leader of the world will be Putin.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/china-puts-new-weapons-on-south-china-sea-islands-report-says/2016/12/15/c02f67e8-c2a1-11e6-aa03-f2e1260448ff_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_southchinasea-7a%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.9aa7478d61e7

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/the-kremlin-likes-the-hacking-attention-but-not-the-blame/2016/12/14/65279738-c177-11e6-92e8-c07f4f671da4_story.html?utm_term=.cceb31faefbb%5B/quote%5D

Just for minor clarification, who has been President for the last 7 years, 10 months and 3 weeks and will be President for the next 5 weeks still?

[Anonymous]

[quote=no_such_reality]
Just for minor clarification, who has been President for the last 7 years, 10 months and 3 weeks and will be President for the next 5 weeks still?[/quote]

Just for clarification, what’s your point?

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=no_such_reality]

Just for minor clarification, who has been President for the last 7 years, 10 months and 3 weeks and will be President for the next 5 weeks still?[/quote]

For clarification, after 8 years of Bush neglect, Obama had a pivot to Asia. The US led negotiations to exclude China and create a bloc to comprise 40% of world trade including US, Japan, Malaysia, Vietnam, Singapore, Brunei, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Mexico, Chile and Peru.

Those countries, and the Phillipines, are critical to resisting Chinese military expansion in the Pacific because they have legitimate terroririal claims.

The failure of TPP because of Trump is the biggest win for China. A phone call to Taiwan does nothing but rile up the Chinese and provide false hope to Taiwan independence backers.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-38060980

[scaredyclassic]

“fat, drunk (on power) and stupid is no way to go thru life, son.”

[svelte]

[quote=scaredyclassic]”fat, drunk (on power) and stupid is no way to go thru life, son.”[/quote]

Love it! Animal House quote!

Of course, we have to tack on to the end of that statement “but you could end up President that way!”

[FlyerInHi]

So right after the letter, Trump and Xi talk on the phone. It’s not clear who called whom. More like a prearranged phone call.

I still think that when Trump talked to Taiwan, his ego thought “oh, the president of the Republic of China is calling me, how nice.” Either that, or he miscalculated and got nothing for his previous move. And that would make him a bad negotiator.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/trump-agrees-to-honor-one-china-policy-in-call-to-xi-jinping/2017/02/10/ea6e7ece-ef4a-11e6-9973-c5efb7ccfb0d_story.html?utm_term=.a3e0dc4fdf26

[zk]

I actually see this as a good sign.

trump’s position on one-China failed, and he didn’t triple down on his failure like he usually does. I’d rather he be a not-very-good negotiator who can adjust to reality than a hard-nosed negotiator who will follow a failed ploy into a trade war or much worse.

It shows he can back down when he needs to, that he can adjust, and I see that as a good sign. I just hope (although I’m not all that optimistic) that this example of making a reasonable adjustment when things don’t go his way is not an isolated incident.

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=zk]I actually see this as a good sign.

trump’s position on one-China failed, and he didn’t triple down on his failure like he usually does. I’d rather he be a not-very-good negotiator who can adjust to reality than a hard-nosed negotiator who will follow a failed ploy into a trade war or much worse.

It shows he can back down when he needs to, that he can adjust, and I see that as a good sign. I just hope (although I’m not all that optimistic) that this example of making a reasonable adjustment when things don’t go his way is not an isolated incident.[/quote]

I agree… but we need to win. USA! USA! USA!

Problem is that we are not winning in Asia. China is winning and there is no strategy to change that.

The reason we are giving Japan such as lavish welcome is because their Diet actually ratified TPP in December after Trump’s election. With the US pullout, they have egg on their faces.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/japan-ratifies-trans-pacific-partnership-which-trump-has-promised-to-leave-1481273551
Japan is also part of a 16-nation bloc in Asia called the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership, or RCEP, which is exploring a trade deal.

Still, none of the alternatives have the same attractions as the TPP, which would bring together Japan and its most important ally, the U.S., in a deal that excluded China. Other proposed deals are more narrowly focused on lowering tariffs than the TPP, which also included measures codifying workers’ rights and intellectual-property rights.

What’s more, RCEP is led by China, the region’s biggest economy, which makes Tokyo uneasy.

While Mr. Abe dismissed a refashioned TPP without the U.S. as “meaningless,” some analysts said Tokyo would have to consider that option if Mr. Trump formally pulls the plug on the TPP after his inauguration Jan. 20.

[FlyerInHi]

Looks like schummer preempted Trump by calling on the US to pressure China to intervene with regard to North Korea.

During the campaign Trump said he would get China to fix it for us very quickly. We are waiting….

[FlyerInHi]

So Trump gets valuable trademarks in China right after he reaffirmed the one-china policy. Like he’s going to support Taiwan over China now.

Oh, the horror!

[FlyerInHi]

This one is for you, OCrenter. Trump had your hopes up because he talked to the president of Taiwan. I still think Trump didn’t know who the president of the Republic of China was when he took the call as president elect.

Hong Kong democracy activists are going to jail. And not a word from Trump. Not even a word from Rex Tillerson. The hard work of diplomacy is too much for Trump. Trump thinks he can achieve foreign policy successes just by sheer trumpian negotiating skills, without years of advocacy for human right by our diplomats and leaders. Good luck. The Chinese will run circles around him.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/hong-kong-student-leaders-jailed-for-2014-pro-democracy-umbrella-protest/2017/08/17/ba7a92d4-8310-11e7-82a4-920da1aeb507_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-cards_hp-card-world%3Ahomepage%2Fcard&utm_term=.897978e2a44b

[ocrenter]

[quote=FlyerInHi]This one is for you, OCrenter. Trump had your hopes up because he talked to the president of Taiwan. I still think Trump didn’t know who the president of the Republic of China was when he took the call as president elect.

Hong Kong democracy activists are going to jail. And not a word from Trump. Not even a word from Rex Tillerson. The hard work of diplomacy is too much for Trump. Trump thinks he can achieve foreign policy successes just by sheer trumpian negotiating skills, without years of advocacy for human right by our diplomats and leaders. Good luck. The Chinese will run circles around him.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/hong-kong-student-leaders-jailed-for-2014-pro-democracy-umbrella-protest/2017/08/17/ba7a92d4-8310-11e7-82a4-920da1aeb507_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-cards_hp-card-world%3Ahomepage%2Fcard&utm_term=.897978e2a44b%5B/quote%5D

Trump talking to President Tsai of Taiwan was akin to the boy that yelled out “but the King has no cloth on.” It helped break open the “One China” myth that diplomats everywhere were attempting to maintain for the sake of China’s face.

Sometimes you need a disruptor to upset the apple cart when the apple cart was built on injustice and non-recognition of a democratic and progressive country of over 23 million.

He served his purpose when it comes to Taiwan. Now it is up to the Taiwanese people to continue its gradual break through from that One China myth.

As for Hong Kong. Never expected Trump to say or do much about human rights violations within China. This is the same guy that though guys marching around with tiki torches screaming blood and soil are “good guys.” Com’on now.

Brian, give up your infatuation with China. Show some love for the Taiwanese who share your democratic and progressive values.

[FlyerInHi]

Actually, I’m infatuated with China only to the extent it’s the world’s largest economy with the world largest standing army. Just like they are infatuated with us.

We’re not going to achieve goals unless we put in years of effort. China has been winning because they know policies work. We have a naive notion that the free markets solve everything.

[FlyerInHi]

So why is Trump visiting China immediately after Xi Jinping was crowned “king” as Trump put it?

I still believe that Trump was happy to talk to the President of the Republic of China, not knowing it was Taiwan calling.

[Author]

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