Panem et Circenses

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Rustico: Where to begin? I guess by saying that the rulers of the Middle East have done a far better job of oppressing their people (and for a far longer time) than the Western powers ever have.

As far as America being an autocracy: That is opinion oft advanced, but with no basis in fact.

Islam has been always been a religion of war, and has been spread by the sword since it’s inception. It is a religion that demands either subjugation, or death. The idea that there is any moral equivalence between the prevailing religion/philosophy of the Middle East and Western democratic states beggars description.

As far as centuries of oppression and death, please give examples. As the various posters here are fond of saying: Please provide data.

As regards our (Western democracies) exploitation of their mineral resources: Explain then how Saudi Arabia, Kuwaiti, Qatar, UAE, etc, are all cash rich states. That region is awash in petrodollars, all paid by the self same Western democracies that are so egregiously exploiting them. An interesting paradox, no?

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Rustico: Where to begin? I guess by saying that the rulers of the Middle East have done a far better job of oppressing their people (and for a far longer time) than the Western powers ever have.

As far as America being an autocracy: That is opinion oft advanced, but with no basis in fact.

Islam has been always been a religion of war, and has been spread by the sword since it’s inception. It is a religion that demands either subjugation, or death. The idea that there is any moral equivalence between the prevailing religion/philosophy of the Middle East and Western democratic states beggars description.

As far as centuries of oppression and death, please give examples. As the various posters here are fond of saying: Please provide data.

As regards our (Western democracies) exploitation of their mineral resources: Explain then how Saudi Arabia, Kuwaiti, Qatar, UAE, etc, are all cash rich states. That region is awash in petrodollars, all paid by the self same Western democracies that are so egregiously exploiting them. An interesting paradox, no?

[NotCranky]

To be fair to both or us Allan ,expressing our points of view would require a book. Neither of us can make a quality presentation on this blog. I have a feeling your book will be written with a Christain American Patriot bias and mine with what I believe to be a more holistic approach.I am white of european ancestry, born on the fourth of July, baptised catholic, so I wouldn’t be bringing forth any Islamic, ethnocentric or nationalist chauvinism to my side of the argument. I simply refuse to condone this war by use of any rationale. That said I will respond to a few items in your post.

1) “Where to begin? I guess by saying that the rulers of the Middle East have done a far better job of oppressing their people (and for a far longer time) than the Western powers ever have.”

Your argument/defense constitutes a logical fallacy. It is called “two wrongs make us right”. Your assumption that they have done a poor job is very undefined as compared to what?
See now the burden of proof is on you. It also assumes that this region does not have the right of autodetermination. It also assumes that it is our right to intervene.

2)As far as America being an autocracy: That is opinion oft advanced, but with no basis in fact.

You misunderstood my reference to “Autocracy”. In my view George Bush takes on the appearance of “Autocrat Supreme”.My view actually is that he is a puppet of other influencial people but he comes off as an Autocrat regarding the Invasions and occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq.

The fact that the “war” was planned before he was elected.That he lied about WMD. That he unreasonalby linked Saddam Hussien and Al Qaeda. That I believe it is safe to assume that the invasion and occupancy are about power, oil and economies and not terrorism.Never in my life have I called the USA an autocracy.

As and aside: I don’t think there exists a greek or otherwise classical reference to describe what our nation is. Renaming our system would be a fine topic of a political science dissertation. It is something like a marriage between a ruling class,domestic and transnational corporations,influential institutions like the Vatican and other religious coalitions,universities, unions ect.

3)Islam has been always been a religion of war, and has been spread by the sword since it’s inception. It is a religion that demands either subjugation, or death. The idea that there is any moral equivalence between the prevailing religion/philosophy of the Middle East and Western democratic states beggars description.

You are exaggerating and ommiting here. Islam has coexisted quite peacefully for vast periods of time with Christianity, Hinduism and Buddism. The Koran is open to interpretation the same as the Bible. There are many examples of attrocities and intolerance committed by Christians historically as well. The inquisition, crusades,Witch hunts,conquests of native peoples, slavery ect.

4)As far as centuries of oppression and death, please give examples. As the various posters here are fond of saying: Please provide data.

Here the logical fallacy is to put the “burden of proof on me” as opposed to questioning your own stance. You are the better historian by far. That is, I believe you have assimilated more of the events and timeframes of movements on the world stage.Maybe you don’t know as much as I credit your for? However, I also believe that whatever I present has already been rationalized in your mind to a view that is not favorable to Muslims. Here are a few examples of what I see as oppressive that you will undoubtedly see as fair play and as favors to Islamic society. Invasions and occupations, colonizations(french and british),Establishment and armament of Israel in Palistine which I see as a standing army for western civilization, an invasion and occupation,establishment of puppet governments and Kingdoms,Embargos, sanctions restriction on sea transport. Disequal opportunity to build military power including nukes.Proxy wars.

5)As regards our (Western democracies) exploitation of their mineral resources: Explain then how Saudi Arabia, Kuwaiti, Qatar, UAE, etc, are all cash rich states. That region is awash in petrodollars, all paid by the self same Western democracies that are so egregiously exploiting them. An interesting paradox, no?

The use of selective examples justifies and proves nothing with regard to the invasion and occupancy. The examples you posit may be proof to the extent which divide and conquer has succeeded to date. The fact that compensation exists doe not prove regional autodetermiantion and a free market for fossil fuels. Do you believe that these states could refuse to sell to the U.S without consequences? The threat that the influence on the oil is vulnerable is what is really at issue.
It occurs to me that Israel’s threat presence could no longer maintain US dominance over the power oil and economies of the Middle East. Also there was the threat of other powerful nations and/or the european union, usurping our influence if not militarily, then by a shift in realtive global economic significance.
Because of the benefits aligned to such influence the Invasions and occupations were launched.

Allan I am sure I have made a few mistakes. To go on with this to this extent,and it really merits more depth, would take way too much time. You may have the last word or alternatively we just agree to disagree.
Best wishes.

[NotCranky]

To be fair to both or us Allan ,expressing our points of view would require a book. Neither of us can make a quality presentation on this blog. I have a feeling your book will be written with a Christain American Patriot bias and mine with what I believe to be a more holistic approach.I am white of european ancestry, born on the fourth of July, baptised catholic, so I wouldn’t be bringing forth any Islamic, ethnocentric or nationalist chauvinism to my side of the argument. I simply refuse to condone this war by use of any rationale. That said I will respond to a few items in your post.

1) “Where to begin? I guess by saying that the rulers of the Middle East have done a far better job of oppressing their people (and for a far longer time) than the Western powers ever have.”

Your argument/defense constitutes a logical fallacy. It is called “two wrongs make us right”. Your assumption that they have done a poor job is very undefined as compared to what?
See now the burden of proof is on you. It also assumes that this region does not have the right of autodetermination. It also assumes that it is our right to intervene.

2)As far as America being an autocracy: That is opinion oft advanced, but with no basis in fact.

You misunderstood my reference to “Autocracy”. In my view George Bush takes on the appearance of “Autocrat Supreme”.My view actually is that he is a puppet of other influencial people but he comes off as an Autocrat regarding the Invasions and occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq.

The fact that the “war” was planned before he was elected.That he lied about WMD. That he unreasonalby linked Saddam Hussien and Al Qaeda. That I believe it is safe to assume that the invasion and occupancy are about power, oil and economies and not terrorism.Never in my life have I called the USA an autocracy.

As and aside: I don’t think there exists a greek or otherwise classical reference to describe what our nation is. Renaming our system would be a fine topic of a political science dissertation. It is something like a marriage between a ruling class,domestic and transnational corporations,influential institutions like the Vatican and other religious coalitions,universities, unions ect.

3)Islam has been always been a religion of war, and has been spread by the sword since it’s inception. It is a religion that demands either subjugation, or death. The idea that there is any moral equivalence between the prevailing religion/philosophy of the Middle East and Western democratic states beggars description.

You are exaggerating and ommiting here. Islam has coexisted quite peacefully for vast periods of time with Christianity, Hinduism and Buddism. The Koran is open to interpretation the same as the Bible. There are many examples of attrocities and intolerance committed by Christians historically as well. The inquisition, crusades,Witch hunts,conquests of native peoples, slavery ect.

4)As far as centuries of oppression and death, please give examples. As the various posters here are fond of saying: Please provide data.

Here the logical fallacy is to put the “burden of proof on me” as opposed to questioning your own stance. You are the better historian by far. That is, I believe you have assimilated more of the events and timeframes of movements on the world stage.Maybe you don’t know as much as I credit your for? However, I also believe that whatever I present has already been rationalized in your mind to a view that is not favorable to Muslims. Here are a few examples of what I see as oppressive that you will undoubtedly see as fair play and as favors to Islamic society. Invasions and occupations, colonizations(french and british),Establishment and armament of Israel in Palistine which I see as a standing army for western civilization, an invasion and occupation,establishment of puppet governments and Kingdoms,Embargos, sanctions restriction on sea transport. Disequal opportunity to build military power including nukes.Proxy wars.

5)As regards our (Western democracies) exploitation of their mineral resources: Explain then how Saudi Arabia, Kuwaiti, Qatar, UAE, etc, are all cash rich states. That region is awash in petrodollars, all paid by the self same Western democracies that are so egregiously exploiting them. An interesting paradox, no?

The use of selective examples justifies and proves nothing with regard to the invasion and occupancy. The examples you posit may be proof to the extent which divide and conquer has succeeded to date. The fact that compensation exists doe not prove regional autodetermiantion and a free market for fossil fuels. Do you believe that these states could refuse to sell to the U.S without consequences? The threat that the influence on the oil is vulnerable is what is really at issue.
It occurs to me that Israel’s threat presence could no longer maintain US dominance over the power oil and economies of the Middle East. Also there was the threat of other powerful nations and/or the european union, usurping our influence if not militarily, then by a shift in realtive global economic significance.
Because of the benefits aligned to such influence the Invasions and occupations were launched.

Allan I am sure I have made a few mistakes. To go on with this to this extent,and it really merits more depth, would take way too much time. You may have the last word or alternatively we just agree to disagree.
Best wishes.

[PerryChase]

Rustico, it’ll let you debate this topic.

I don’t have much interest in convincing the ideologues.

[PerryChase]

Rustico, it’ll let you debate this topic.

I don’t have much interest in convincing the ideologues.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Rustico/PerryChase: I am not ideologue. Far from it. I did not vote for Bush in either election (nor did I vote for either Gore or Kerry). I am Catholic by birth, baptism and education, but Jesuit Catholic. While conservative politically, I think the Republican party has lost its way, especially as regards its core principles. The Democrats, on the other side of the aisle have ideologically sold out to a morally bankrupt and morally infantile left wing element that had its heyday during the Vietnam War.

I do not condone the various depredations visited on the world by Western powers, nor do I conclude that we are completely responsible for the state of the world as well.

If I were to pick an ancient (Greek or Roman) model for the US, I would choose Athens right befoe and during the Pelopponesian War. A power that had grown decadent, arrogant and incorrect in its stance about its neighbors and its place in the world.

I also do not have a chauvinistic view of Islam. Rather, my views on Islam are solely a product of reading up on history. When you cite the example of the Crusades, do you believe that this was an example of exploitation, or that there was genuine justification in the defense of Christendom? I believe that the Christians had as much claim (during that time) as the Jews and Moslems to Jerusalem. The fact is that Europeans were fighting as late as 1683 to eject Islam from Vienna. It is not a matter of “interpretation” either. People cite the “peaceful” examples of the Qu’ran and say that we (Christians and Jews) have been co-existing peacefully. Sadly, this is untrue. True Islams demands complete subjugation to the will of Allah as either a convert or a controlled unbeliever (subject to taxes, punishments, etc) or death.

If Islam was not a religion spread by the sword, how did Islam wind up in Spain, the Balkans and Central/Eastern Europe? And, if it was a religion that peacefully coexisted with its Christian and Jewish, why did Europe resist so strongly (i.e. the Spanish Reconquista) against it for so many years?

I do respect your opinion as regards your own worldview. It is yours after all. However, history (true history composed only of facts and figures and not revisionism) is history. And, while certainly no fan of Israel, it is the only country in the region that is a democracy and supports the rule of law.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Rustico/PerryChase: I am not ideologue. Far from it. I did not vote for Bush in either election (nor did I vote for either Gore or Kerry). I am Catholic by birth, baptism and education, but Jesuit Catholic. While conservative politically, I think the Republican party has lost its way, especially as regards its core principles. The Democrats, on the other side of the aisle have ideologically sold out to a morally bankrupt and morally infantile left wing element that had its heyday during the Vietnam War.

I do not condone the various depredations visited on the world by Western powers, nor do I conclude that we are completely responsible for the state of the world as well.

If I were to pick an ancient (Greek or Roman) model for the US, I would choose Athens right befoe and during the Pelopponesian War. A power that had grown decadent, arrogant and incorrect in its stance about its neighbors and its place in the world.

I also do not have a chauvinistic view of Islam. Rather, my views on Islam are solely a product of reading up on history. When you cite the example of the Crusades, do you believe that this was an example of exploitation, or that there was genuine justification in the defense of Christendom? I believe that the Christians had as much claim (during that time) as the Jews and Moslems to Jerusalem. The fact is that Europeans were fighting as late as 1683 to eject Islam from Vienna. It is not a matter of “interpretation” either. People cite the “peaceful” examples of the Qu’ran and say that we (Christians and Jews) have been co-existing peacefully. Sadly, this is untrue. True Islams demands complete subjugation to the will of Allah as either a convert or a controlled unbeliever (subject to taxes, punishments, etc) or death.

If Islam was not a religion spread by the sword, how did Islam wind up in Spain, the Balkans and Central/Eastern Europe? And, if it was a religion that peacefully coexisted with its Christian and Jewish, why did Europe resist so strongly (i.e. the Spanish Reconquista) against it for so many years?

I do respect your opinion as regards your own worldview. It is yours after all. However, history (true history composed only of facts and figures and not revisionism) is history. And, while certainly no fan of Israel, it is the only country in the region that is a democracy and supports the rule of law.

[CardiffBaseball]

Not that this has anything to do with the discussion, but apparently the UK is wrestling with a problem of female circumcision. More like female mutilation, but ahh what do we care, it’s just part of their culture. To denigrate this practice would suggest that I think western culture is superior which is simply not the case.

So hack away with those sharpened stones, Muzzies!!

All Praise be to Allah

Gender Mutilation

[CardiffBaseball]

Not that this has anything to do with the discussion, but apparently the UK is wrestling with a problem of female circumcision. More like female mutilation, but ahh what do we care, it’s just part of their culture. To denigrate this practice would suggest that I think western culture is superior which is simply not the case.

So hack away with those sharpened stones, Muzzies!!

All Praise be to Allah

Gender Mutilation

[NotCranky]

I typed you a long response Allan but I goofed it up. Thanks for being reponsible in the presention of your views.
I appreciate that you are not blindly patriotic and nationalistic.
I am just going to address a few of your points from your last post.
I never said Muslims were never agressive,that would be stupid.

Certainly you can find as many examples of Muslims coexisting with other religions over vast periods of time in northern Africa,the Middle East and Asia? What about the sword and subjugation in those situations?What about the tolerance of secularism at various times. Islam is not a trained pitbull with no other recourse but vicious brutal actions in it’s bag of tricks. This is delusional thinking.It sounds like buying into the vilify the enemy propaganda.

You ask:
“If Islam was not a religion spread by the sword, how did Islam wind up in Spain, the Balkans and Central/Eastern Europe? And, if it was a religion that peacefully coexisted with its Christian and Jewish, why did Europe resist so strongly (i.e. the Spanish Reconquista) against it for so many years?”

You can find equally malevolent deeds by Christendom.I question the influence of your heritage and upbringing on your objectivity. Christendom has used much more disastrous weaponry for invasions and conquests including against obvious innocents or those who simply protest a dogma and subjugation! Now we feel it is our right to hold exclusively,if it were possible the most abominable weapons ever available which were BTW brought into existence not in response to Islam. But have been held over all nations by Christendom.

Above all I hope you do not feel these occupations are justified by the shortcomings of a religion as expressed over time or even currently.You drew me into this conversation with a statement that seemed to reflect a position like that. Those families in Iraq and Afghanistan, being blown to pieces, had nothing to do with that.We are not giving Justice to the Middle East.

I think we should not start to go in so many circles from here. The peanut gallery is starting ot chirp in. If recent history repeats itself digression looms.
If I understand teh guidelines promulgated by the blogmaster correctly, my post, for being located below Baseball Guys rediculous post might get deleted. Best wishes.

[NotCranky]

I typed you a long response Allan but I goofed it up. Thanks for being reponsible in the presention of your views.
I appreciate that you are not blindly patriotic and nationalistic.
I am just going to address a few of your points from your last post.
I never said Muslims were never agressive,that would be stupid.

Certainly you can find as many examples of Muslims coexisting with other religions over vast periods of time in northern Africa,the Middle East and Asia? What about the sword and subjugation in those situations?What about the tolerance of secularism at various times. Islam is not a trained pitbull with no other recourse but vicious brutal actions in it’s bag of tricks. This is delusional thinking.It sounds like buying into the vilify the enemy propaganda.

You ask:
“If Islam was not a religion spread by the sword, how did Islam wind up in Spain, the Balkans and Central/Eastern Europe? And, if it was a religion that peacefully coexisted with its Christian and Jewish, why did Europe resist so strongly (i.e. the Spanish Reconquista) against it for so many years?”

You can find equally malevolent deeds by Christendom.I question the influence of your heritage and upbringing on your objectivity. Christendom has used much more disastrous weaponry for invasions and conquests including against obvious innocents or those who simply protest a dogma and subjugation! Now we feel it is our right to hold exclusively,if it were possible the most abominable weapons ever available which were BTW brought into existence not in response to Islam. But have been held over all nations by Christendom.

Above all I hope you do not feel these occupations are justified by the shortcomings of a religion as expressed over time or even currently.You drew me into this conversation with a statement that seemed to reflect a position like that. Those families in Iraq and Afghanistan, being blown to pieces, had nothing to do with that.We are not giving Justice to the Middle East.

I think we should not start to go in so many circles from here. The peanut gallery is starting ot chirp in. If recent history repeats itself digression looms.
If I understand teh guidelines promulgated by the blogmaster correctly, my post, for being located below Baseball Guys rediculous post might get deleted. Best wishes.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Rustico: I agree, and I appreciate your reasoned response. I mention my Jesuitical education for a reason: Anyone remember the Spanish Inquisition? I absolutely agree that as Christians we have some fairly significant skeletons in our closets.

However, it is interesting to note the decided lack of “moderate” Moslems when it comes to confronting Al Qaeda on their home turf. While I agree about the poor citizens in both Iraq and Afghanistan being killed in a war that was not of their choosing, would I also not be remiss in remarking upon the fact that the majority of the casualties being inflicted upon those people are from fellow Moslems? You’d be hard pressed to argue that point when Sunnis and Shia are killing each other with reckless abandon all in the name of Allah.

Lastly, I am of German descent on both sides of my family. Given the Teutonic predisposition for aggressive behavior, I am probably the last one to throw stones. However, Germany is now a peaceful and productive member of the world, proving that you can rehabilitate instransigent nations over time. But it requires a strong commitment and a lot of time.

While I fear that the cause is lost in Iraq, I don’t disagree with the underlying rationale. I think nation building is worthwhile and I agree that justice is all important.

I am not a saber rattling nationalist, but I do think America has been a force for good far more often than she has not. I think we need to find our way back to those ideals that made us great and assert a sense of decent leadership again.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Rustico: I agree, and I appreciate your reasoned response. I mention my Jesuitical education for a reason: Anyone remember the Spanish Inquisition? I absolutely agree that as Christians we have some fairly significant skeletons in our closets.

However, it is interesting to note the decided lack of “moderate” Moslems when it comes to confronting Al Qaeda on their home turf. While I agree about the poor citizens in both Iraq and Afghanistan being killed in a war that was not of their choosing, would I also not be remiss in remarking upon the fact that the majority of the casualties being inflicted upon those people are from fellow Moslems? You’d be hard pressed to argue that point when Sunnis and Shia are killing each other with reckless abandon all in the name of Allah.

Lastly, I am of German descent on both sides of my family. Given the Teutonic predisposition for aggressive behavior, I am probably the last one to throw stones. However, Germany is now a peaceful and productive member of the world, proving that you can rehabilitate instransigent nations over time. But it requires a strong commitment and a lot of time.

While I fear that the cause is lost in Iraq, I don’t disagree with the underlying rationale. I think nation building is worthwhile and I agree that justice is all important.

I am not a saber rattling nationalist, but I do think America has been a force for good far more often than she has not. I think we need to find our way back to those ideals that made us great and assert a sense of decent leadership again.

[SD Transplant]

Since I am the least qualified to comment or pretend to comprehend w/out a bias religion in general, I think I will recommend some insightfull reading by Mircea Eliade. He’s one of the first authors in the world to do a comparative historic review of religions in a book & publish it.

“The Sacred and The Profane: The Nature of Religion”
by Mircea Eliade

He was translated into many languages, and I know he’s published many more books along the same subject. My father, a retired journalist now, has been pushing me to read his work for the longest time. However, I am behind on my dad’s recommended reading list, so I am working on “Never Eat Alone” by Keith Ferrazi.

[Author]

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