Panem et Circenses

[rankandfile]

… iam pridem, ex quo suffragia nulli
uendimus, effudit curas; nam qui dabat olim
imperium, fasces, legiones, omnia, nunc se
continet atque duas tantum res anxius optat,
panem et circenses….
(Juvenal, Satire 10.77-81)

[rankandfile]

… Already long ago, from when we sold our vote to no man,
the People have abdicated our duties; for the People who once upon a time handed out military command, high civil office, legions – everything, now restrains itself and anxiously hopes for just two things:
bread and circuses
(Juvenal, Satire 10.77-81)

[rankandfile]

… Already long ago, from when we sold our vote to no man,
the People have abdicated our duties; for the People who once upon a time handed out military command, high civil office, legions – everything, now restrains itself and anxiously hopes for just two things:
bread and circuses
(Juvenal, Satire 10.77-81)

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Rankandfile: Interesting choice of Roman authors (Juvenal) from an interesting time in Rome’s history (lamenting the move from Republic to Autocracy).

Coincidence, or were you also drawing a parallel to modern America?

It certainly seems as though we have abdicated our rights as an informed, involved citizenry and have devolved into a narcissistic, ignorant and easily led rabble.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Rankandfile: Interesting choice of Roman authors (Juvenal) from an interesting time in Rome’s history (lamenting the move from Republic to Autocracy).

Coincidence, or were you also drawing a parallel to modern America?

It certainly seems as though we have abdicated our rights as an informed, involved citizenry and have devolved into a narcissistic, ignorant and easily led rabble.

[rankandfile]

My sentiments exactly.

[rankandfile]

My sentiments exactly.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Kudos, then.

Excellent choice of authors, by the way. You don’t see much in the way of Classics anymore, especially the Roman authors.

I was discussing the movie “300” with someone recently, and they were fervently convinced it was fiction. I mentioned Herodotus and Thucycidides, in the context of the Greeks fighting the Persians and the modern example of Western democracy fighting militant Islam and had the sense of how we’ve lost that part of our history. Which is truly unfortunate, both for the lessons it offers and the richness of the experience.

I had a teacher of mine, a Jesuit priest, tell me that all of life’s lessons could be found in “The Pelopponesian Wars” by Thucyidides. I make a point of reading it every year and, as I get older, the more I believe he was right.

I quoted Polybius (“Those who don’t learn from the lessons of History are doomed to repeat them”) on an earlier post, and it seems that simplest axioms are the hardest to remember and the easiest to forget.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Kudos, then.

Excellent choice of authors, by the way. You don’t see much in the way of Classics anymore, especially the Roman authors.

I was discussing the movie “300” with someone recently, and they were fervently convinced it was fiction. I mentioned Herodotus and Thucycidides, in the context of the Greeks fighting the Persians and the modern example of Western democracy fighting militant Islam and had the sense of how we’ve lost that part of our history. Which is truly unfortunate, both for the lessons it offers and the richness of the experience.

I had a teacher of mine, a Jesuit priest, tell me that all of life’s lessons could be found in “The Pelopponesian Wars” by Thucyidides. I make a point of reading it every year and, as I get older, the more I believe he was right.

I quoted Polybius (“Those who don’t learn from the lessons of History are doomed to repeat them”) on an earlier post, and it seems that simplest axioms are the hardest to remember and the easiest to forget.

[PerryChase]

I concur. Although the Persians weren’t Muslim so I don’t really see the parallel. The Greeks were certainly closer, in terms of affinity, to the Near East and the Black Sea than to Europe. The Ancient Greeks were never (and would never have been) Christians.

I also like Chinese philosophy. It explains everyday life very well also.

[PerryChase]

I concur. Although the Persians weren’t Muslim so I don’t really see the parallel. The Greeks were certainly closer, in terms of affinity, to the Near East and the Black Sea than to Europe. The Ancient Greeks were never (and would never have been) Christians.

I also like Chinese philosophy. It explains everyday life very well also.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

PerryChase,

It had less to do with Christianity and Islam, and more to do with the clash of cultures inherent to the Greco-Persian conflicts.

From a Western Civ perspective, we owe much to the Hellenistic values (especially the democratic ideals of individual voice, the right of franchise and the freedom to live one’s life without undue interference or fear).

The Persians represented the worse sort of autocracy and, like militant Islam, believed in obligation through subjugation.

I don’t see the present day conflict as being between Judeo-Christian values versus Islamic values. Rather, it is between the right to have individual freedoms versus submitting to some medieval autocratic ideal.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

PerryChase,

It had less to do with Christianity and Islam, and more to do with the clash of cultures inherent to the Greco-Persian conflicts.

From a Western Civ perspective, we owe much to the Hellenistic values (especially the democratic ideals of individual voice, the right of franchise and the freedom to live one’s life without undue interference or fear).

The Persians represented the worse sort of autocracy and, like militant Islam, believed in obligation through subjugation.

I don’t see the present day conflict as being between Judeo-Christian values versus Islamic values. Rather, it is between the right to have individual freedoms versus submitting to some medieval autocratic ideal.

[NotCranky]

“I don’t see the present day conflict as being between Judeo-Christian values versus Islamic values. Rather, it is between the right to have individual freedoms versus submitting to some medieval autocratic ideal.”

I guess it is a real intellectuals war then. That does surprise me. I do agree that the conflict is not over Christian values from our point of view,although a little chauvinistic motivation never hurts, perhaps the other side feels a little more righteous indignation over interference to their freedom of religion and autodetermination(for better or for worse). Beyond that my uneducated guess is that it is about power, economies and resources(fossil fuels this time).
In my opinion our president has superceeded all other autocrats quite effectively(with help of course). As for ideals I just don’t see us taking any exceptional ideals to the forefront of this occupation. Does the mere envolvement of our superior(western) culture suffice as a reason for the continuation of decades or even centuries of oppression and death? By comparision Japan , Germany and Russia would have ruled us outright in various recent times .Look at the treatment given them. We are simply not giving Justice to the Middle East.

Less cravings for “bread and circuses” and we might realize that.

[NotCranky]

“I don’t see the present day conflict as being between Judeo-Christian values versus Islamic values. Rather, it is between the right to have individual freedoms versus submitting to some medieval autocratic ideal.”

I guess it is a real intellectuals war then. That does surprise me. I do agree that the conflict is not over Christian values from our point of view,although a little chauvinistic motivation never hurts, perhaps the other side feels a little more righteous indignation over interference to their freedom of religion and autodetermination(for better or for worse). Beyond that my uneducated guess is that it is about power, economies and resources(fossil fuels this time).
In my opinion our president has superceeded all other autocrats quite effectively(with help of course). As for ideals I just don’t see us taking any exceptional ideals to the forefront of this occupation. Does the mere envolvement of our superior(western) culture suffice as a reason for the continuation of decades or even centuries of oppression and death? By comparision Japan , Germany and Russia would have ruled us outright in various recent times .Look at the treatment given them. We are simply not giving Justice to the Middle East.

Less cravings for “bread and circuses” and we might realize that.

[Author]

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