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Veritas.
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September 14, 2011 at 12:57 PM #729022September 14, 2011 at 2:03 PM #729035
UCGal
Participant[quote=briansd1]
But yeah, the government can’t take any risk supporting our innovators… so don’t be surprised when HP’s computer division so sold off to Acer and Motorola gets bought by Huawei.[/quote]
Too late on that last one – but it’s an American buyer… Google.September 14, 2011 at 2:10 PM #729038briansd1
GuestYeah, UCGal, I forgot that one. Big blooper on my part. But you get the idea.
September 14, 2011 at 3:07 PM #729043Allan from Fallbrook
Participant[quote=briansd1]
The loan comprises just 1.3% of DOE’s overall loan portfolio. To date, Solyndra is the only loan that’s known to be troubled.
Compare that to the loan portfolio of the private banks these days.
BTW, it was a loan guarantee to Solyndra so the government is on the hook only if there are no assets left to repay the bank loans.
But yeah, the government can’t take any risk supporting our innovators… so don’t be surprised when HP’s computer division so sold off to Acer and Motorola gets bought by Huawei.[/quote]
Brian: Completely false narrative, accompanied by an equally false threat. First off, government best supports creativity and innovation through R&D programs, not by picking winners and losers on the commercial side.
Second, the threat of HP selling off to China has what to do with the government, exactly? HP is a viable, on-going commercial enterprise that makes a profit. HP at present is not in any way an example of government support of “innovation”. Completely specious and not remotely relevant.
Government should fund and actively support R&D and then let the market pick the drivers. Both sides of this equation play to their strengths.
September 14, 2011 at 11:41 PM #729087Guest[quote=Allan from Fallbrook HP at present is not in any way an example of government support of “innovation”. Completely specious and not remotely relevant.
[/quote]Yes, Allan. I was trying to be sarcastic and the opposite of the argument that we shouldn’t have an industrial policy.
I do, however, think that solar is a missed opportunity for us.
last year, the Chinese government provided more than $30 billion, billion with a B, to their solar companies
http://www.npr.org/2011/09/14/140477571/how-to-u-s-solar-companies-compare-to-chinas?ps=rsAnd we are crying about a $500 million guarantee (not even a direct government loan).
I guess our industrial policy is our agricultural subsidies.
September 15, 2011 at 12:12 AM #729090Veritas
Participant“This is the kind of malfeasance that Obama cannot afford to suffer right now. The Democratic polling firm Third Way released a memo this week showing that 78 percent of ‘switchers’ (Obama voters who voted Republican in 2010) believe Democrats are not ‘responsible with taxpayer dollars.'”
September 15, 2011 at 7:49 AM #729093Participant[quote=briansd1][quote=Allan from Fallbrook HP at present is not in any way an example of government support of “innovation”. Completely specious and not remotely relevant.
[/quote]Yes, Allan. I was trying to be sarcastic and the opposite of the argument that we shouldn’t have an industrial policy.
I do, however, think that solar is a missed opportunity for us.
last year, the Chinese government provided more than $30 billion, billion with a B, to their solar companies
http://www.npr.org/2011/09/14/140477571/how-to-u-s-solar-companies-compare-to-chinas?ps=rsAnd we are crying about a $500 million guarantee (not even a direct government loan).
I guess our industrial policy is our agricultural subsidies.[/quote]
Brian: Interesting article at the WashPost on the Solyndra situation: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/five-myths-about-the-solyndra-collapse/2011/09/14/gIQAfkyvRK_blog.html
Author makes the point that R&D in energy is small ($3Bn), especially compared with Defense ($77Bn), and needs to increase. I definitely agree with this, and California would benefit hugely from this type of R&D investment as energy is already a specialty of ours. Continuing in this vein, the author mentions that some 24,000 energy projects are underway, with a large percentage here in California. This is a good example of what I said earlier, have the government do the heavy lifting in R&D and let the market pick the drivers (a point the article also makes with successful solar companies that benefited from government sponsored R&D).
He also debunks the conventional wisdom that China has stolen a march on the rest of the world in solar and further states that emerging technologies being used (such as molten salt in Spain) are changing the game and away from China’s strength (i.e. cheap, mass-produced panels).
Worth a read.
September 15, 2011 at 7:52 AM #729094Participant[quote=briansd1]
And we are crying about a $500 million guarantee (not even a direct government loan).
[/quote]Brian: Not true. The loan was processed through the FFB (Federal Financing Bank), which is controlled by the US Department of the Treasury. The Treasury Inspector General is now launching an investigation, as ABC News reports: http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/solyndra-loan-now-treasury-launching-investigation/story?id=14521917
September 15, 2011 at 11:56 AM #729134ParticipantAnd the beat goes on:
“Already, the FBI and a House committee are investigating a federal loan guarantee to a now failed solar firm called Solyndra that is tied to a large Obama fundraiser. Now the Pentagon has been raising concerns about a new wireless project by a satellite broadband company in Virginia called LightSquared, whose majority owner is an investment fund run by Democratic donor Philip Falcone.”September 15, 2011 at 5:10 PM #729182Guest[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
Brian: Interesting article at the WashPost on the Solyndra situation: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/five-myths-about-the-solyndra-collapse/2011/09/14/gIQAfkyvRK_blog.htmlAuthor makes the point that R&D in energy is small ($3Bn), especially compared with Defense ($77Bn), and needs to increase. I definitely agree with this, and California would benefit hugely from this type of R&D investment as energy is already a specialty of ours. Continuing in this vein, the author mentions that some 24,000 energy projects are underway, with a large percentage here in California. This is a good example of what I said earlier, have the government do the heavy lifting in R&D and let the market pick the drivers (a point the article also makes with successful solar companies that benefited from government sponsored R&D).
He also debunks the conventional wisdom that China has stolen a march on the rest of the world in solar and further states that emerging technologies being used (such as molten salt in Spain) are changing the game and away from China’s strength (i.e. cheap, mass-produced panels).
Worth a read.[/quote]
Interesting article.
I don’t believe that the government should just fund the research and then let the market figure out the sales, marketing and manufacture.
That worked in the past, but it’s different today.
China has an advantage. We are their market.
If American companies don’t have markets, the technology will get produced in China and shipped to us.
We can’t just concentrate on high-end research jobs because the average American is not high-end. What will the average American do?
I don’t really have an easy answer, but doing nothing is not the solution.
But if the average Americans are content to do nothing; then, well, they can eat cake.
September 15, 2011 at 9:53 PM #729204ParticipantWhy does this not surprise me: “Another Popular Name Emerges In The Solyndra Scandal- Goldman, Sachs & Co. acted as exclusive financial advisor to Solyndra in connection with this loan guarantee application.”
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/another-popular-name-emerges-solyndra-scandal#commentsSeptember 15, 2011 at 10:32 PM #729207Participant[quote=Veritas]Why does this not surprise me: “Another Popular Name Emerges In The Solyndra Scandal- Goldman, Sachs & Co. acted as exclusive financial advisor to Solyndra in connection with this loan guarantee application.”
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/another-popular-name-emerges-solyndra-scandal#comments%5B/quote%5DVeritas: You couldn’t make this shit up! Wow. And you wonder why/how Blankfein has avoided prison? Hmmmm…
While I personally don’t think this Solyndra nonsense rises to the level of a full-blown scandal, Obama can ill afford this right now. I read an article by James Carville on CNN.com, wherein he told Obama to start jailing Wall Street banksters or fire Eric Holder for failing to do so. Its a fair point, especially considering the widespread damage they caused. Things like the confluence of Solyndra and Goldman Sachs will only further damage Obama’s credibility. And I’m sure the GOP will make hay with the “Chicago Way” aspect of the story, even though they’re dirtier than the Dems on this.
September 15, 2011 at 10:44 PM #729209Participant[quote=briansd1]
Interesting article.I don’t believe that the government should just fund the research and then let the market figure out the sales, marketing and manufacture.
That worked in the past, but it’s different today.
China has an advantage. We are their market.
If American companies don’t have markets, the technology will get produced in China and shipped to us.
We can’t just concentrate on high-end research jobs because the average American is not high-end. What will the average American do?
I don’t really have an easy answer, but doing nothing is not the solution.
But if the average Americans are content to do nothing; then, well, they can eat cake.[/quote]
Brian: Said it before, will say it again: We (America) are fighting the last war, economically speaking.
The GOP is tied too closely to Big Money and the Dems are tied too closely to Big Labor. Big Labor wants a return to the Golden Age of American Manufacturing, when they could bankrupt companies like GM and US Steel through suicidal and unsupportable labor agreements and Big Money wants unfettered, unregulated short-term, bonus-driven, over-leveraged capital that doesn’t support American industry or innovation.
The Dems want to protect teacher’s unions that aren’t driven by results and don’t appear to care that American students lag the rest of the industrialized world by a large margin, thus destroying America’s ability to provide the necessary well-educated, well-prepared workforce that can compete on a global footing.
The GOP wants to feed an ever-larger Military/Industrial Complex and National Security State that doesn’t provide meaningful long-term work, or meaningful long-term security. Nor are they interested in crafting a US Industrial Policy that brings back those jobs that America does better than anyone else in the world: Skilled manufacturing.
Neither party is willing to take on entrenched interests like the AARP, or the SEIU, or the defense lobby. We are facing huge structural imbalances that will take years to correct, but all we do is blame the “other guy”. Short-sighted and short-term and ultimately destructive.
September 15, 2011 at 11:45 PM #729212ParticipantObama has no credibility. He is a creation of the Libs that is in the process of destabilization. Time is running out and they all know it, especially when a political operative like Carville says it is time to panic: ” in a CNN op-ed, Carville said Tuesday’s two special election results are a warning to the White House – and a sign the president must make drastic changes now to stave off the Republican momentum.”
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0911/63573.html#ixzz1Y6180wJG
September 17, 2011 at 7:40 AM #729316Anonymous
Guest[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]While I personally don’t think this Solyndra nonsense rises to the level of a full-blown scandal, Obama can ill afford this right now. I read an article by James Carville on CNN.com, wherein he told Obama to start jailing Wall Street banksters or fire Eric Holder for failing to do so. Its a fair point, especially considering the widespread damage they caused. Things like the confluence of Solyndra and Goldman Sachs will only further damage Obama’s credibility. And I’m sure the GOP will make hay with the “Chicago Way” aspect of the story, even though they’re dirtier than the Dems on this.[/quote]
Allan I agree with all of the above (and your following post as well.) Like most Americans, I would love to see many Wall Street types go to jail. Not so much for revenge, but as a demonstration that we do, in fact, live by standards of accountability and the rule of law.
However a basic problem with prosecuting the “banksters” is that it is not clear what laws were really broken. Sure there were lots of lies, tricks, and other deceit, but mapping specific actions of specific individuals to specific violations of specific laws is not easy. Most of the law in this area deals with the subjective areas of “disclosure” and “material information” etc.
Of course I’m not a lawyer, but it is entirely believable to me that there just really is no solid case against these guys. Remember Enron? The feds were barely able to convict Skilling, and Lay was well on the path to wiggling out of his conviction when he died (technically, Lay died an innocent man.)
I’m not trying to make excuses for Obama or anyone, but I think the fundamental problem is that the laws needed to prevent these shenanigans just aren’t in place. That problem needs to be fixed first. But, as you know, it’s not gonna happen any time soon.
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