OT: So much for those California “Green” Jobs

[Anonymous]

Solyndra has also raised close to a billion dollars in equity and loans.

So this wasn’t a purely government funded venture. In fact, most of their capital came from the private sector.

This wasn’t some goofy idea that the government blindly tossed money at – it was a startup that founded by experienced managers and backed by serious venture capitalists.

How many auto manufactures started and failed in the 1930?

How many aircraft manufactures started and failed in the 1950?

How many IT and biotechnology companies started and failed in the past thirty years?

This company is really just another example of a startup that didn’t make it – part of a healthy and functioning capitalist system.

And yes, people are “cheering” this failure. This company is being positioned as a poster-child of Obama’s failed economic policy.

And you really think the government knows what the defense industry is doing with our money?

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/top-secret-america/

When it comes to national security, all too often no expense is spared and few questions are asked – with the result an enterprise so massive that nobody in government has a full understanding of it. It is, as Dana Priest and William M. Arkin have found, ubiquitous, often inefficient and mostly invisible to the people it is meant to protect and who fund it.

The articles in this series and an online database at topsecretamerica.com depict the scope and complexity of the government’s national security program through interactive maps and other graphics. Every data point on the Web site is substantiated by at least two public records.

This shouldn’t be a left/right debate, but the first response to this thread shows that it is.

And our Domo is correct – what is lacking is the sense of proportion. One side of the political spectrum doesn’t know how to count zeros when they see big numbers.

[afx114]

Maybe this is part of the reason for the failure?

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=briansd1]
I wonder how China does it when we can’t. We had the lead and the technology.

Yeah, it’s really smart of us to cheer the bankruptcy of one of our own companies.

[/quote]

Brian: No one is cheering the demise of an American company. That’s a complete red herring and a cheap rhetorical attempt to deflect focus from the facts.

As was just pointed out, this is not a Left versus Right rant, but a pointed reference to the “true” cost of green energy. As has already been discovered by Spain, England and Germany, there are significant costs, both direct and opportunity, in green energy. As I’ve pointed out, the government should not be in the business of picking winners and losers, but should instead be promoting R&D efforts and then let the market drive the winners.

How can China do it, you ask? Well, if you’re interested in facts, China is NOT doing it. Its a friggin’ Potemkin Village over there, as evidenced by the recent chem/enviro issues in Dalian and that supposed “accident” involving high speed rail. The idea that we’re ceding the lead to China can be disproved and any lead that China is enjoying will be ephemeral at best.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=pri_dk][quote=Allan from Fallbrook]I wonder if our Leftist troll buddy will come out [/quote]

Our rightist troll buddy (EconProf) has come out.

Why don’t you ever complain about him?[/quote]

Pri: As a former Army officer, you should appreciate the value of good intel. The remark about the Leftist troll was related to a dust-up that FLU and I had with an idiot that kept banging on about the “500,000 green jobs” that WERE already in California. This was a complete lie and easily exposed, but this person kept insisting that it was fact and then started in with the ad hominem (yes, I did just use the word “idiot”, which might sound like ad hominem, except this person WAS an idiot).

So, as with everything in life, context is important.

As to your use of the word “rightist”, you do realize that you’re using that word incorrectly, right? A “Rightist” is a fascist (again, using context). Of course, you might think EconProf IS a fascist, but that’s between you guys.

Lastly, I’ve always been behind the idea of cutting the shit out of the Defense budget and have posted numerous times what a great idea that would be (along with cuts in entitlement spending, tax reform, bringing taxation in line with previous historical norms, i.e. approx 18% of GDP, etc).

Nice to see, however, that you’ve moved from the strawman to the false equivalence. That’s a good one, just ask Brian.

[Anonymous]

[quote]As to your use of the word “rightist”, you do realize that you’re using that word incorrectly, right?[/quote]

Two of my kids are twins. When they were babies they had their own babble language. It was really cute and quite fascinating, but I never bothered to try to translate it.

They’ve outgrown it now and use the same words as everyone else.

[quote]I’ve always been behind the idea of cutting the shit out of the Defense budget and have posted numerous times what a great idea that would be[/quote]

True, you occasionally drop in a comment along the lines of “and we should cut defense and other stuff also.”

But you don’t seem to have the same passion for these issues, even though they represent problems that are orders of magnitude bigger.

Also, I don’t know what you mean by “false equivalence.”

(I googled it and this was the first result: http://furrybrowndog.wordpress.com/2009/07/22/the-fallacy-of-false-equivalence/

So now I know a little better what the term means.)

But defense waste and green energy waste are far from equivalent. That’s my point.

So, although your outrage may be justified, it seems to be quite selective. And it always seems to come back to Obama.

[briansd1]

[quote=pri_dk]

So, although your outrage may be justified, it seems to be quite selective. And it always seems to come back to Obama.[/quote]

Exactly.

What are the proposals from the right? 0% corporate tax rates.

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7379628n&tag=contentMain;contentBody

[briansd1]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook] How can China do it, you ask? Well, if you’re interested in facts, China is NOT doing it. Its a friggin’ Potemkin Village over there, as evidenced by the recent chem/enviro issues in Dalian and that supposed “accident” involving high speed rail. The idea that we’re ceding the lead to China can be disproved and any lead that China is enjoying will be ephemeral at best.[/quote]

Time will tell, Allan. But I belived that you’ll proven wrong on China just like you were wrong on Iraq. But decades later it’ll be too late to fix our mistakes.

You and I would agree that competition is “war.” China is organizing a big army with big guns. We have ragtag bands of private militia.

In the scheme of things, the high-speed rail incident is nothing. China will power along and continue building infrastructure.

China is embarking a huge project of state sponsored innovation that Japan, Korea, and to a lesser extent Taiwan, successfully implemented. Germany is a strong export led economy thanks to government policies.

Yes, yes, Japan is not the feared industrial power it once was, but they are a rich country and a worthy competitor.

The question is: do we want the best jobs in America or not?

Yes, I agree that we have lots going for us, from demographics, to land mass, to natural resources. We will continue to be a wealthy country. But wealth is relative.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=briansd1][quote=Allan from Fallbrook] How can China do it, you ask? Well, if you’re interested in facts, China is NOT doing it. Its a friggin’ Potemkin Village over there, as evidenced by the recent chem/enviro issues in Dalian and that supposed “accident” involving high speed rail. The idea that we’re ceding the lead to China can be disproved and any lead that China is enjoying will be ephemeral at best.[/quote]

Time will tell, Allan. But I belived that you’ll proven wrong on China just like you were wrong on Iraq. But decades later it’ll be too late to fix our mistakes.

You and I would agree that competition is “war.” China is organizing a big army with big guns. We have ragtag bands of private militia.

In the scheme of things, the high-speed rail incident is nothing. China will power along and continue building infrastructure.

China is embarking a huge project of state sponsored innovation that Japan, Korea, and to a lesser extent Taiwan, successfully implemented. Germany is a strong export led economy thanks to government policies.

Yes, yes, Japan is not the feared industrial power it once was, but they are a rich country and a worthy competitor.

The question is: do we want the best jobs in America or not?

Yes, I agree that we have lots going for us, from demographics, to land mass, to natural resources. We will continue to be a wealthy country. But wealth is relative.[/quote]

Brian: Just out of curiosity, when’s the last time you’ve been to China? Let me know if its been within the last six months, please.

They have an army with big guns? Uh, no, they don’t. What they do have is nearly 100MM people in or approaching old age. They have a birth rate far below their replacement rate (China’s vaunted One Child Policy), they have a male-to-female birthrate imbalance that is nearly 1.2 to 1 in some provinces. They have a coming labor bust that will ensure China will get old before they get rich. They have a horrific environmental record (see Dalian) and, contrary to reports, its getting worse, not better. Their internal security budget is largely than ALL of their military outlays combined and their military spending is increasingly rapidly (to give you some sense of proportion).

As to infrastructure: China uses more fly ash in their cement (that’s right cement, not concrete) than anywhere else in the world. As a result, you now have failing structures all over the place, from buildings to bridges to dams, and all of the projects are fairly new construction. Speaking of dams, read up on the peer-review engineering reports on Three Gorges Dam and then tell me all about China’s infrastructure prowess.

I know you generally don’t like facts, Brian, because they do get in the way of the false narrative, but the facts are all there. Hell, we haven’t even discussed China’s bad loan ratios, in terms of all that state spending you love so much. The country is a mess, but they do an excellent job of hiding it from the world. Do a little research and find out how many riots and incidents of civil unrest occur throughout China in a single year. The number should stun you. It probably won’t, but it should.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=pri_dk][quote]As to your use of the word “rightist”, you do realize that you’re using that word incorrectly, right?[/quote]

Two of my kids are twins. When they were babies they had their own babble language. It was really cute and quite fascinating, but I never bothered to try to translate it.

They’ve outgrown it now and use the same words as everyone else.

[quote]I’ve always been behind the idea of cutting the shit out of the Defense budget and have posted numerous times what a great idea that would be[/quote]

True, you occasionally drop in a comment along the lines of “and we should cut defense and other stuff also.”

But you don’t seem to have the same passion for these issues, even though they represent problems that are orders of magnitude bigger.

Also, I don’t know what you mean by “false equivalence.”

(I googled it and this was the first result: http://furrybrowndog.wordpress.com/2009/07/22/the-fallacy-of-false-equivalence/

So now I know a little better what the term means.)

But defense waste and green energy waste are far from equivalent. That’s my point.

So, although your outrage may be justified, it seems to be quite selective. And it always seems to come back to Obama.[/quote]

Pri: Okay, to recap. I babble like an idiot baby and I lack sufficient passion for Defense and entitlement cuts.

Gotcha. Glad we got that out of the way. Now, how about the discussion on government picking winners and losers, versus those successful government R&D programs that properly deploy resources and help market drivers? You know, because Brian wants us to have the right jobs.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=briansd1][quote=pri_dk]

So, although your outrage may be justified, it seems to be quite selective. And it always seems to come back to Obama.[/quote]

Exactly.

[/quote]

Brian: Puh-leeze. Pot meet Kettle.

[patb]

[quote=EconProf]So the taxpayers will pay for this “investment” in green jobs. This is the problem when the government tries to pick winners and losers instead of the private sector. They make choices based on faulty science and the whims of extreme environmentalists. Private investors, with their own money at stake, tend to weigh costs and benefits before allocating resources. They may not always get it right, but they suffer the consequences when wrong (absent government bailouts). I wonder if any politicians or bureaucrats will suffer from this boondogle. Also, had that government “investment” money stayed in taxpayers’ pockets and been spent on consumer items, how many real private sector jobs been created?[/quote]

Answer None: Because the Private sector picks jobs in China over jobs in San Diego.

[Anonymous]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Pri: Okay, to recap. I babble like an idiot baby and I lack sufficient passion for Defense and entitlement cuts.
[/quote]

Ok, I know that you didn’t mean to call my kids idiots…my bad for mentioning them in the first place.

My point is that you seem to have your own private vernacular – particularly with this “leftist” stuff. It really comes across as an attempted substitute for the world “liberal” – a term that is ubiquitous with the right-wing blowhards like Limbaugh.

Every Limbaugh/Beck/Hannity/etc. show starts out with essentially the same intro: “Look what those liberals are doing now!” and then proceeds with stories about the outrageous behavior of Obama and the “liberals,” while completely ignoring the similar and, often much bigger, abuses from the right.

Some of your posts aren’t much different. Except you say “leftist” instead of “liberal.”

[briansd1]

Allan, so China is a mess and we have nothing to worry about. We can rest on our laurels.

You mentioned WWII for getting us out of the Great Depression, a decade after it began. Why does it have to be war and killing people?

True or only partly true, so what if we perceive China as the competition and we work together to outdo the perceived marvels they are building in China?

*

No, I haven’t been to China in the past 6 months. But I have a Taiwanese friend, based in Taipei, who is a buyer of products make in China. Her family is Taiwanese (not 1949 refugees from the Mainland) but they all work and have investments in China. Many of her childhood friends are working in China. She’s coming here this weekend, so we’ll get a chance to talk more.

I have other friends in China whom I regularly keep in touch with.

One friend and his wife are immigrating from Beijing to Canada after working hard and saving money. They are immigrating not because of bad economic condition but to avoid the stress of a hard-driving environment.

China has the benefit of a huge prosperous overseas community that will do business and bring skills to China if the right incentives are there. They have a global class of professionals that can work anywhere in the world. That can only benefit Chinese manufacturers who want to export.

Africa is a huge emerging markets. Chinese small businesses are opening up all over and bringing Chinese products to eager consumers.

BTW, if a Republican is to win the White House, for our country’s sake, let’s hope that it’s Jon Huntsman because he does understand China.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=pri_dk][quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Pri: Okay, to recap. I babble like an idiot baby and I lack sufficient passion for Defense and entitlement cuts.
[/quote]

Ok, I know that you didn’t mean to call my kids idiots…my bad for mentioning them in the first place.

My point is that you seem to have your own private vernacular – particularly with this “leftist” stuff. It really comes across as an attempted substitute for the world “liberal” – a term that is ubiquitous with the right-wing blowhards like Limbaugh.

Every Limbaugh/Beck/Hannity/etc. show starts out with essentially the same intro: “Look what those liberals are doing now!” and then proceeds with stories about the outrageous behavior of Obama and the “liberals,” while completely ignoring the similar and, often much bigger, abuses from the right.

Some of your posts aren’t much different. Except you say “leftist” instead of “liberal.”[/quote]

Pri: Words mean things. Ideas have weight. I don’t use the term “liberal/Liberal” as a pejorative, both because it is not (to me) and because it is one of the most beautiful words and concepts in the English language.

I do use the term Leftist (capital L) as a pejorative because it represents an utterly amoral, intellectually bankrupt and thoroughly reprehensible worldview and it has ties to a vile political system that killed 100MM and which I personally took up arms against during my military service. Sadly, the sticky, foul remnants of this same debunked moral infantilism run through our academic circles and pool in certain areas of the urban intelligentsia. It manifests itself in the use of various memes, tropes and symbology/iconography and I take great pains to fire upon it when I see it.

For the record, I have no truck with Limbaugh, Hannity or any of their ilk, and find them as stupid and mindless as their confederates on the Left, including Maddow and Olbermann.

Words mean things. Ideas have weight. Certain ideals are not only worth fighting for, they’re worth dying for.

[afx114]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]For the record, I have no truck with Limbaugh, Hannity or any of their ilk, and find them as stupid and mindless as their confederates on the Left, including Maddow and Olbermann.[/quote]

Did someone say false equivalence?

[Author]

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