OT: Schwarzenegger proposes the complete elimination of all state welfare programs

[jficquette]

[quote=Veritas]John,
Early childhood nutrition and IQ correlate unless you are talking about Jensen’s studies about the heritability of IQ. Vouchers would make teachers accountable for results and not just BS, feel good, PC, Liberal hogwash that masquerades for teaching in public schools.[/quote]

I was speaking to the heritability of IQ so poverty comes from lower IQ and the reduced opportunities that come from that and not the other way around.

We need schools that understand that and can teach to it. Privatized education would do a much better job of it then has been done so far by the public sector.

John

[patientrenter]

[quote=pri_dk]
Nobody said that teachers should not have performance standards. In California, it is actually quite difficult to even become a teacher. Even a person of your caliber and level of success would probably need to go back to school for years just to meet the minimum requirements. (BTW: how do you ever find the time to waste on silly internet message boards with all that responsibility?)

You use phrases like “better” results and “improving it” without defining them, essentially avoiding the meat of the issue with vagueness and platitudes. It sounds so decisive, but you haven’t actually said anything.

So what is “better?” How do you know when “it” needs to be “improved?”

So back to the original question: How does one quantitatively measure the performance of a teacher? Should we “just do it,” or perhaps “get ‘er done?”
[/quote]

pri_dk, you are making my point for me. The entire rest of the country could spend all its time debating how difficult it is to apply vigorous performance standards, with real effect, to everyone. But we don’t, we just get on with it. Does that mean we do it perfectly? No. Does it mean that we do it so badly that it’s worse than no performance standards at all? Not even close.

And limiting vigorous performance standards to the entry stages of a job just doesn’t cut it. That’s not how things work for most of us, and there’s a reason – it’s fighting the battle for greater productivity with one hand tied behind your back. It’s hopelessly ineffective and unnecessary.

Why don’t I get into a blow-by-blow debate about each specific technique to measure teachers’ performance? For the same reason you don’t try to prove to a mathematician that you like ice cream, using mathematical formulas. I think we’ve all seen enough to know, as well as we know that we like ice cream, that any system, in any arena, with a decent amount of competition and with real rewards and accountability for the people involved produces better results for consumers (kids, in this case) than systems without those elements.

[patientrenter]

[quote=pri_dk]
Nobody said that teachers should not have performance standards. In California, it is actually quite difficult to even become a teacher. Even a person of your caliber and level of success would probably need to go back to school for years just to meet the minimum requirements. (BTW: how do you ever find the time to waste on silly internet message boards with all that responsibility?)

You use phrases like “better” results and “improving it” without defining them, essentially avoiding the meat of the issue with vagueness and platitudes. It sounds so decisive, but you haven’t actually said anything.

So what is “better?” How do you know when “it” needs to be “improved?”

So back to the original question: How does one quantitatively measure the performance of a teacher? Should we “just do it,” or perhaps “get ‘er done?”
[/quote]

pri_dk, you are making my point for me. The entire rest of the country could spend all its time debating how difficult it is to apply vigorous performance standards, with real effect, to everyone. But we don’t, we just get on with it. Does that mean we do it perfectly? No. Does it mean that we do it so badly that it’s worse than no performance standards at all? Not even close.

And limiting vigorous performance standards to the entry stages of a job just doesn’t cut it. That’s not how things work for most of us, and there’s a reason – it’s fighting the battle for greater productivity with one hand tied behind your back. It’s hopelessly ineffective and unnecessary.

Why don’t I get into a blow-by-blow debate about each specific technique to measure teachers’ performance? For the same reason you don’t try to prove to a mathematician that you like ice cream, using mathematical formulas. I think we’ve all seen enough to know, as well as we know that we like ice cream, that any system, in any arena, with a decent amount of competition and with real rewards and accountability for the people involved produces better results for consumers (kids, in this case) than systems without those elements.

[patientrenter]

[quote=pri_dk]
Nobody said that teachers should not have performance standards. In California, it is actually quite difficult to even become a teacher. Even a person of your caliber and level of success would probably need to go back to school for years just to meet the minimum requirements. (BTW: how do you ever find the time to waste on silly internet message boards with all that responsibility?)

You use phrases like “better” results and “improving it” without defining them, essentially avoiding the meat of the issue with vagueness and platitudes. It sounds so decisive, but you haven’t actually said anything.

So what is “better?” How do you know when “it” needs to be “improved?”

So back to the original question: How does one quantitatively measure the performance of a teacher? Should we “just do it,” or perhaps “get ‘er done?”
[/quote]

pri_dk, you are making my point for me. The entire rest of the country could spend all its time debating how difficult it is to apply vigorous performance standards, with real effect, to everyone. But we don’t, we just get on with it. Does that mean we do it perfectly? No. Does it mean that we do it so badly that it’s worse than no performance standards at all? Not even close.

And limiting vigorous performance standards to the entry stages of a job just doesn’t cut it. That’s not how things work for most of us, and there’s a reason – it’s fighting the battle for greater productivity with one hand tied behind your back. It’s hopelessly ineffective and unnecessary.

Why don’t I get into a blow-by-blow debate about each specific technique to measure teachers’ performance? For the same reason you don’t try to prove to a mathematician that you like ice cream, using mathematical formulas. I think we’ve all seen enough to know, as well as we know that we like ice cream, that any system, in any arena, with a decent amount of competition and with real rewards and accountability for the people involved produces better results for consumers (kids, in this case) than systems without those elements.

[patientrenter]

[quote=pri_dk]
Nobody said that teachers should not have performance standards. In California, it is actually quite difficult to even become a teacher. Even a person of your caliber and level of success would probably need to go back to school for years just to meet the minimum requirements. (BTW: how do you ever find the time to waste on silly internet message boards with all that responsibility?)

You use phrases like “better” results and “improving it” without defining them, essentially avoiding the meat of the issue with vagueness and platitudes. It sounds so decisive, but you haven’t actually said anything.

So what is “better?” How do you know when “it” needs to be “improved?”

So back to the original question: How does one quantitatively measure the performance of a teacher? Should we “just do it,” or perhaps “get ‘er done?”
[/quote]

pri_dk, you are making my point for me. The entire rest of the country could spend all its time debating how difficult it is to apply vigorous performance standards, with real effect, to everyone. But we don’t, we just get on with it. Does that mean we do it perfectly? No. Does it mean that we do it so badly that it’s worse than no performance standards at all? Not even close.

And limiting vigorous performance standards to the entry stages of a job just doesn’t cut it. That’s not how things work for most of us, and there’s a reason – it’s fighting the battle for greater productivity with one hand tied behind your back. It’s hopelessly ineffective and unnecessary.

Why don’t I get into a blow-by-blow debate about each specific technique to measure teachers’ performance? For the same reason you don’t try to prove to a mathematician that you like ice cream, using mathematical formulas. I think we’ve all seen enough to know, as well as we know that we like ice cream, that any system, in any arena, with a decent amount of competition and with real rewards and accountability for the people involved produces better results for consumers (kids, in this case) than systems without those elements.

[patientrenter]

[quote=pri_dk]
Nobody said that teachers should not have performance standards. In California, it is actually quite difficult to even become a teacher. Even a person of your caliber and level of success would probably need to go back to school for years just to meet the minimum requirements. (BTW: how do you ever find the time to waste on silly internet message boards with all that responsibility?)

You use phrases like “better” results and “improving it” without defining them, essentially avoiding the meat of the issue with vagueness and platitudes. It sounds so decisive, but you haven’t actually said anything.

So what is “better?” How do you know when “it” needs to be “improved?”

So back to the original question: How does one quantitatively measure the performance of a teacher? Should we “just do it,” or perhaps “get ‘er done?”
[/quote]

pri_dk, you are making my point for me. The entire rest of the country could spend all its time debating how difficult it is to apply vigorous performance standards, with real effect, to everyone. But we don’t, we just get on with it. Does that mean we do it perfectly? No. Does it mean that we do it so badly that it’s worse than no performance standards at all? Not even close.

And limiting vigorous performance standards to the entry stages of a job just doesn’t cut it. That’s not how things work for most of us, and there’s a reason – it’s fighting the battle for greater productivity with one hand tied behind your back. It’s hopelessly ineffective and unnecessary.

Why don’t I get into a blow-by-blow debate about each specific technique to measure teachers’ performance? For the same reason you don’t try to prove to a mathematician that you like ice cream, using mathematical formulas. I think we’ve all seen enough to know, as well as we know that we like ice cream, that any system, in any arena, with a decent amount of competition and with real rewards and accountability for the people involved produces better results for consumers (kids, in this case) than systems without those elements.

[Ricechex]

[quote=SD Realtor]”A military academy style public school system would serve us very well, I believe.”

Brian I would definitely agree with that.

As a side note I also believe that more physical activity would improve academic achievement dramatically. It is bad enough that pretty much any normal 7 year old boy is classified as ADD cuz he cannot sit still. I think that in most cases this is simply a boy being a boy. They need to be running around. Tire them out and you find they are a hell of alot more attentive. Adding more physical activity and maybe scaling back a bit on the academics may serve to INCREASE attentiveness and the quality of what the kids learn. Just my two cents. I do like the military style idea though. Lots of physical activity and more of a focus on respect, discipline, and other intangibles that will accelerate learning in the future. [/quote]

I have 2 teacher friends, married couple. They have both been teaching for SD Unified for 10+ years. Their son was quite active, and since a child he has been enrolled in private school, because they felt he would kicked out of public school due to the low tolerance for activity. The child is now 10 years old, and does extremely well academically, as he is very bright, but still an active boy.

[Ricechex]

[quote=SD Realtor]”A military academy style public school system would serve us very well, I believe.”

Brian I would definitely agree with that.

As a side note I also believe that more physical activity would improve academic achievement dramatically. It is bad enough that pretty much any normal 7 year old boy is classified as ADD cuz he cannot sit still. I think that in most cases this is simply a boy being a boy. They need to be running around. Tire them out and you find they are a hell of alot more attentive. Adding more physical activity and maybe scaling back a bit on the academics may serve to INCREASE attentiveness and the quality of what the kids learn. Just my two cents. I do like the military style idea though. Lots of physical activity and more of a focus on respect, discipline, and other intangibles that will accelerate learning in the future. [/quote]

I have 2 teacher friends, married couple. They have both been teaching for SD Unified for 10+ years. Their son was quite active, and since a child he has been enrolled in private school, because they felt he would kicked out of public school due to the low tolerance for activity. The child is now 10 years old, and does extremely well academically, as he is very bright, but still an active boy.

[Ricechex]

[quote=SD Realtor]”A military academy style public school system would serve us very well, I believe.”

Brian I would definitely agree with that.

As a side note I also believe that more physical activity would improve academic achievement dramatically. It is bad enough that pretty much any normal 7 year old boy is classified as ADD cuz he cannot sit still. I think that in most cases this is simply a boy being a boy. They need to be running around. Tire them out and you find they are a hell of alot more attentive. Adding more physical activity and maybe scaling back a bit on the academics may serve to INCREASE attentiveness and the quality of what the kids learn. Just my two cents. I do like the military style idea though. Lots of physical activity and more of a focus on respect, discipline, and other intangibles that will accelerate learning in the future. [/quote]

I have 2 teacher friends, married couple. They have both been teaching for SD Unified for 10+ years. Their son was quite active, and since a child he has been enrolled in private school, because they felt he would kicked out of public school due to the low tolerance for activity. The child is now 10 years old, and does extremely well academically, as he is very bright, but still an active boy.

[Ricechex]

[quote=SD Realtor]”A military academy style public school system would serve us very well, I believe.”

Brian I would definitely agree with that.

As a side note I also believe that more physical activity would improve academic achievement dramatically. It is bad enough that pretty much any normal 7 year old boy is classified as ADD cuz he cannot sit still. I think that in most cases this is simply a boy being a boy. They need to be running around. Tire them out and you find they are a hell of alot more attentive. Adding more physical activity and maybe scaling back a bit on the academics may serve to INCREASE attentiveness and the quality of what the kids learn. Just my two cents. I do like the military style idea though. Lots of physical activity and more of a focus on respect, discipline, and other intangibles that will accelerate learning in the future. [/quote]

I have 2 teacher friends, married couple. They have both been teaching for SD Unified for 10+ years. Their son was quite active, and since a child he has been enrolled in private school, because they felt he would kicked out of public school due to the low tolerance for activity. The child is now 10 years old, and does extremely well academically, as he is very bright, but still an active boy.

[Ricechex]

[quote=SD Realtor]”A military academy style public school system would serve us very well, I believe.”

Brian I would definitely agree with that.

As a side note I also believe that more physical activity would improve academic achievement dramatically. It is bad enough that pretty much any normal 7 year old boy is classified as ADD cuz he cannot sit still. I think that in most cases this is simply a boy being a boy. They need to be running around. Tire them out and you find they are a hell of alot more attentive. Adding more physical activity and maybe scaling back a bit on the academics may serve to INCREASE attentiveness and the quality of what the kids learn. Just my two cents. I do like the military style idea though. Lots of physical activity and more of a focus on respect, discipline, and other intangibles that will accelerate learning in the future. [/quote]

I have 2 teacher friends, married couple. They have both been teaching for SD Unified for 10+ years. Their son was quite active, and since a child he has been enrolled in private school, because they felt he would kicked out of public school due to the low tolerance for activity. The child is now 10 years old, and does extremely well academically, as he is very bright, but still an active boy.

[patientrenter]

When I was growing up, we had rocks for breakfast, and we were thankful, and perfectly healthy for it.

Not quite, but I grew up going to average public schools (managed by religious orders) with very large class sizes and minimal special services or facilities, and a decent but mixed group of teachers. I avoided PE so successfully I don’t think I went more than a few times in many years, and get out of breath from running since I was a teenager.

I support myself, feed myself, and do my part (through taxes) to enable that for quite a few other people too. I just don’t see why we need to have perfect and expensive schools before we can deliver productive members of society. But we do need a no-nonsense intolerant attitude about poor educational performance and inefficiency. And if you like running around a track, SDR, Allan, UCGal, etc. then go for it! I’ll be stirring my drink.

[patientrenter]

When I was growing up, we had rocks for breakfast, and we were thankful, and perfectly healthy for it.

Not quite, but I grew up going to average public schools (managed by religious orders) with very large class sizes and minimal special services or facilities, and a decent but mixed group of teachers. I avoided PE so successfully I don’t think I went more than a few times in many years, and get out of breath from running since I was a teenager.

I support myself, feed myself, and do my part (through taxes) to enable that for quite a few other people too. I just don’t see why we need to have perfect and expensive schools before we can deliver productive members of society. But we do need a no-nonsense intolerant attitude about poor educational performance and inefficiency. And if you like running around a track, SDR, Allan, UCGal, etc. then go for it! I’ll be stirring my drink.

[patientrenter]

When I was growing up, we had rocks for breakfast, and we were thankful, and perfectly healthy for it.

Not quite, but I grew up going to average public schools (managed by religious orders) with very large class sizes and minimal special services or facilities, and a decent but mixed group of teachers. I avoided PE so successfully I don’t think I went more than a few times in many years, and get out of breath from running since I was a teenager.

I support myself, feed myself, and do my part (through taxes) to enable that for quite a few other people too. I just don’t see why we need to have perfect and expensive schools before we can deliver productive members of society. But we do need a no-nonsense intolerant attitude about poor educational performance and inefficiency. And if you like running around a track, SDR, Allan, UCGal, etc. then go for it! I’ll be stirring my drink.

[patientrenter]

When I was growing up, we had rocks for breakfast, and we were thankful, and perfectly healthy for it.

Not quite, but I grew up going to average public schools (managed by religious orders) with very large class sizes and minimal special services or facilities, and a decent but mixed group of teachers. I avoided PE so successfully I don’t think I went more than a few times in many years, and get out of breath from running since I was a teenager.

I support myself, feed myself, and do my part (through taxes) to enable that for quite a few other people too. I just don’t see why we need to have perfect and expensive schools before we can deliver productive members of society. But we do need a no-nonsense intolerant attitude about poor educational performance and inefficiency. And if you like running around a track, SDR, Allan, UCGal, etc. then go for it! I’ll be stirring my drink.

[Author]

Posts