OT: Rand Paul is an idiot

[Coronita]

oh… nothing good is going to come out of this thread. I can already feel it.

I miss the days that we can talk about overleveraged irresponsible home buyers and roast those people.

[utcsox]

[quote=SK in CV]
That’s silly. Vaccinations are an important part of healthcare. It is not all of healthcare. 110 years ago, the supreme court ruled that state mandated vaccinations are legal. And smallpox was eradicated. Do you think that was a bad idea?
[/quote]

Most agree both mandatory vaccinations and health care insurance are good public health policies. The issue is politics, whether or not the government can coerce you to immunize. If so, then it sure can force you to carry health insurance. I think this is going to be a huge election issue in the Republican primary 2016.

[an]

[Anonymous]

[quote=utcsox]I think this is going to be a huge election issue in the Republican primary 2016.[/quote]

Given the Republican party’s game plan for the past two decades has been to create hysteria over non-issues, I’d say you’re right.

The personal liberty argument that some are trying to make with vaccines is pointless and hypocritical.

If the government can force people to go to war and die for the sake of the common good, then surely it can force people to get a vaccination and be healthy for the sake of the common good.

[biggoldbear]

Not far off, Molecular Biology PhD who likes numbers too. I have a feeling most of the Pigg’s are numbers people 😉 I’m glad you found my explanation clear and helpful.

[quote=bobby]you must be a math major (stat), pediatrician or epidemiologist.
well put.
I am a physician who love numbers (engineer in previous life) and can’t explain as well as you did

[quote=biggoldbear]Just in case anyone runs into a “informed” anti-vaxer, some vaccines can cause adverse reactions in a small number of people (From CDC) http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00046738.htm

But this argument is similar to saying that some people would be better off not wearing a seat belt because sometimes they trap people in a burning car.

Except not getting vaccines is worse, because of the already mentioned effect on herd immunity. You are not just putting yourself and children at risk, you are putting others at risk too.

The problem is that for some diseases the risk of the vaccine is actually greater than the risk of getting the disease, but this is only because the vaccine works so well. If people start to avoid the vaccine, this math changes quickly (as we all can see clearly now).[/quote][/quote]

[FlyerInHi]

It’s funny, I don’t see Rand Paul agitating to prevent the military from vaccinating service members, which they do.

The government also forces immigrants to get vaccinated before they get entry or residency visas.

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=biggoldbear]Not far off, Molecular Biology PhD who likes numbers too. I have a feeling most of the Pigg’s are numbers people 😉 I’m glad you found my explanation clear and helpful.

[quote=bobby]you must be a math major (stat), pediatrician or epidemiologist.
well put.
I am a physician who love numbers (engineer in previous life) and can’t explain as well as you did

[quote=biggoldbear]Just in case anyone runs into a “informed” anti-vaxer, some vaccines can cause adverse reactions in a small number of people (From CDC) http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00046738.htm

But this argument is similar to saying that some people would be better off not wearing a seat belt because sometimes they trap people in a burning car.

Except not getting vaccines is worse, because of the already mentioned effect on herd immunity. You are not just putting yourself and children at risk, you are putting others at risk too.

The problem is that for some diseases the risk of the vaccine is actually greater than the risk of getting the disease, but this is only because the vaccine works so well. If people start to avoid the vaccine, this math changes quickly (as we all can see clearly now).[/quote][/quote][/quote]

That makes perfect sense and could explain why some highly educated parents choose not to vaccinate their kids. But as you pointed out “If people start to avoid the vaccine, this math changes quickly (as we all can see clearly now)”.

[poorgradstudent]

[quote=FlyerInHi]It’s funny, I don’t see Rand Paul agitating to prevent the military from vaccinating service members, which they do.

The government also forces immigrants to get vaccinated before they get entry or residency visas.[/quote]

Not to put words in his mouth, but I’d imagine battle-readiness concerns outweigh other concerns for troops. It’s generally accepted that volunteer military members have to give away a lot of personal liberty, including where they choose to live.

Immigrants are not protected by the Constitution.

I’m not saying the personal liberty argument is a good one, but Liberty vs. Security is a constant balancing act, and at least it *is* an argument, as opposed to playing with false facts.

[Anonymous]

[quote=poorgradstudent]Immigrants are not protected by the Constitution.[/quote]

Yes they are, even undocumented immigrants.

But that’s not relevant because there is no Constitutional protection against a law mandating vaccination.

[quote]I’m not saying the personal liberty argument is a good one, but Liberty vs. Security is a constant balancing act, and at least it *is* an argument, as opposed to playing with false facts.[/quote]

That’s the irony. So many are willing – even eager – to sacrifice liberty in exchange for some small protection from distant and improbable threats like terrorism, and yet will not budge when it comes to immunizations.

It doesn’t matter if ISIS or influenza is the cause. Dead is dead.

[Coronita]

[quote=FlyerInHi]It’s funny, I don’t see Rand Paul agitating to prevent the military from vaccinating service members, which they do.

The government also forces immigrants to get vaccinated before they get entry or residency visas.[/quote]

Hey Brian…I know where you want to go with this with your intellectual superiority of being a progressive liberal that believes in science versus being a bible humper backassward hilly-billy from the south…

But before you go there, you might want to consider a few things

Hey look Brian…The states that offer bullshit “philosophical” exemptions from vaccinations aren’t concentrated in red, plenty of them in fact blue….
And note the two states that basically say, “tough shit, we don’t care what you religious or philosophical beliefs are, your kids are getting vaccinated”..Neither of those states are blue too.

Oh and

http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/04/opinion/sutter-vaccine-mississippi-california/

A staggering 99.7% of kindergartners in Mississippi are vaccinated for measles, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. That’s the highest rate in the nation. In California, the rate is only 92.3%. (Colorado, meanwhile, has the lowest rate, at 81.7%.)
….. According to the San Jose Mercury News, 87% of kindergartners at the Berkeley Rose School, for example, had exemptions from vaccination. Parents at the school “seek more alternative health care,” a spokeswoman told that newspaper. Well, they’re choosing an unsafe alternative — one that puts their kids, and, importantly, all kids in the community, at greater risk.

Holy shit, are you telling me that hilli-billy Mississippians that tend to hump the bible more than believing science….believe more in vaccinating kids versus hipster-ultra-progressive science based families from Berkeley that have tendencies to think things like vaccines are some grand government conspiracy that uses people as guinea pig test subjects and end up seeking alternative, unsafe forms to vaccinations? Could superior science minded ultra-progressives intellectual Berkeley hipsters actually learn a thing or two from backassward hilly-billy bible-humping bumpkins from Mississippi about the importance of vaccinations? Say it ain’t so!

I think the real issue, is that you have plenty of idiots in america in general that don’t believe in vaccination, red or blue.

Apparently, even though Rand did make that idiotic statement, he apparently does believe in getting vaccinated…Is it really a surprise? Politics make people say stupid shit to try to win votes from stupid people. Even Obama does that. So did Bush. And I can’t wait the sort of shit that will come out from Jeb or Hillary.

—————————————

2013-2014 stats. Haven’t had time to look at it in detail.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6341a1.htm

[an]

[quote=flu]
Apparently, even though Rand did make that idiotic statement, he apparently does believe in getting vaccinated…Is it really a surprise? Politics make people say stupid shit to try to win votes from stupid people. Even Obama does that. So did Bush. And I can’t wait the sort of shit that will come out from Jeb or Hillary.[/quote]It’s only idiotic if it comes out of the other side’s mouth. If it comes out of the mouth of people on your side, then it’s fully justified. Historical data be damned. This thread is the prime example of that.

[FlyerInHi]

If politicians were all the same, people wouldn’t prefer one. Plus people wouldn’t get riled up when there’s a change. They’d just shrug it off.

People argue that it’s “same shit” when they’ve lost.

My guess is that people choose sides that most resemble them and with whom they have more affinity. They don’t select the best, most rational, superior choice.

Spouses look like each other; and pets look like their owners. In other words “water seeks its own level” as someone said before.

[CA renter]

[quote=scaredyclassic][quote=livinincali][quote=AN]
Which is why I’d say most do political talk/answer and most pander. At the presidential level, I would go as far as saying all.[/quote]

This is one of the reasons vaccination conspiracy theories exist. Our government has lost the trust of the citizens and it’s credibility by being caught in telling so many lies. Even if you’re completely enamored with your political party and believe their lies, you still think the other party lies about everything.[/quote]

THIS.

this isnt about vaccinations. vaccinations are justa proxy for a deeper groundswell of mistrust.

yeah its nuts, but people r nuts … this is not about science or vaccinatons even. this is about soem deeper feeling that people feel they have lost control of their lives.

also, since everyone is a special snowflake in this world nowadays, it gives parents a way to “differentiate” themselves…I don’t know. i think its not a rational thing at this point. its past that. you might as well argue witch science in salem in the 1600s.[/quote]

Yes, the government has lied about so much that many people now choose to disbelieve just about any official talking points. And there is good reason to distrust the government. They have used the mentally ill, prisoners, military personnel, public employees, sick patients (especially those who had no family or other people to advocate for them), etc. in a variety of medical experiments over the years. And our entire, for-profit healthcare system is set up in a way that encourages long-term chronic illnesses that need ongoing treatment with very expensive technologies and medicines.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/medical-slideshow-code/

What’s idiotic is assuming that the government and/or those who profit from a particular theory would be honest about their motives and what they are doing.

We have chosen to vaccinate our children, but we paid extra to buy the MMR vaccines in their individual components. We did this because we had met two families who are 100% convinced that vaccines had caused their childrens’ autism. There is no way someone could listen to their descriptions of what had happened to their children immediately after getting a vaccination and discount it as being “crazy” or “idiotic.” One family was very wealthy, so they could afford the therapist who worked with their child for multiple hours, every single day. Another family was well off enough and had a dedicated mother who had her two kids sleeping in an oxygen chamber every night, in addition to being on a very expensive, complex diet consisting mostly of organic produce (lots of juicing, herbal concoctions, etc.).

If you had talked to these two families, you would probably have a totally different opinion about these “idiots.”

Remember that those who are ahead of science tend to be ridiculed by the current scientific establishment. It doesn’t help anyone’s cause to call those who have a different opinion “idiots” or “conspiracy theorists.” Anecdote almost always precedes science. Those “idiots” just might be right.

[zk]

[quote=CA renter]
If you had talked to these two families, you would probably have a totally different opinion about these “idiots.”[/quote]

I wouldn’t. Children with regressive autism sometimes regress rapidly at about the same age that MMR vaccines are given. So there will be many instances where the regression occurs immediately after the vaccine is given. That doesn’t mean the vaccine caused it. Many people in their 80’s have had strokes immediately after drinking a glass of water or watching tv. That doesn’t mean the water or the tv caused it. Ordinary people being 100% convinced of anything because of an anecdote won’t change my mind, especially if large studies have been done contradicting whatever they’re convinced about.

[quote=CA renter]
Remember that those who are ahead of science tend to be ridiculed by the current scientific establishment. It doesn’t help anyone’s cause to call those who have a different opinion “idiots” or “conspiracy theorists.” Anecdote almost always precedes science. Those “idiots” just might be right.[/quote]

This is a case commonly made for following non-science. What’s never mentioned (I think it’s scientific illiteracy rather than intentional misdirection) is that for every quack who’s ridiculed by the current scientific establishment and turns out to be right, there are hundreds or thousands who are wrong. For every anecdote that turns out precede science, there are a thousand or a million that don’t.

Science won’t always be right. Almost always, but not always. But when it’s wrong, it’s not afraid to admit it. If it’s afraid to admit it, it’s not science. When new evidence comes out, science deals with it unemotionally and updates the science on the matter. Science is always looking for the truth. The real truth. How many endeavors can you say that about? If you start letting mommy and daddy convince you, clearly there’s emotion in the way of figuring out what really happened. And your odds of being right plummet dramatically.

[poorgradstudent]

There’s nothing wrong with alternative, testable hypotheses in science.

But the autism-vaccine link hypothesis has been pretty thoroughly tested and disproven. Autism is caused by a combination of genetic factors and environmental triggers. Mercury exposure *can* trigger autism in some individuals, but this is they type of mercury pumped out by industrial smokestacks, not the type found in vaccines.

Autism is especially tricky because it’s strictly behavioral in terms of diagnosis (at this time) and it truly is a spectrum disorder. Some autistic individuals don’t even like it being considered a disorder at all, any more than being shy or liking adrenaline rush sports are considered disorders.

Fortunately we understand Autism now far better than we did a decade ago, and are making more progress every day. Better real answers do help avoid the public at large trying to fill in the blank with anecdotal conjecture.

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