OT: Is it really that bad out there for fresh grad attorneys?

[Coronita]

This is a joke right?

Article written about it…
http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/the-exchange/attention-lawyers-10-000-salary-190253092.html

I thought when I saw a senior software programmer being billed out at $38,000/year would be bad…This has to be a joke..

[CDMA ENG]

I am taking a stab at this but no… I don’t think it is a joke.

I am envisioning some kind of immigration situation here. Gil & O’by are looking to hire an indentured servant from oversea for the price of a Green Card but to first prove to the state department that they cannot find “good american help”. They are advertising the position under the scenario described above to dissuade any applicants.

Or they are looking for a Law Grad with a rich family to supplement thier staffing and payroll.

CE

P.S.

Could be part time work… 2088 Hours in a billable year. At 10K for 2088 hours it works out to 4.79 an hour… Below minimum wage…

[scaredyclassic]

Notva joke. It’s on http://www.abajournal.com w lots of reader comments.

Market forces.

Expect turnover. Training oppty?

No one can pay loans on it.

[Coronita]

This is almost as insulting as I can recall when I attended an entrepreneur convention in S.D. in which you had project managers/etc trying to tell enginerds to work for them for free or less than minimum wage, saying the could outsource the work overseas.

Some folks contacted me and tried to tell me “work for a free at a startup and gain experience”. My response was “I have the experience, you don’t….You need me more than I need you. Try again.”

I hate firms that try to exploit other people like this…Really shitty. As much as I make jokes about lawyers, there’s something to be said with someone that commited to that higher education and knowledge… Meanwhile, you got people in government that work less than a full weeks of work and retire with a generous pension. Go figure.

[Bubblesitter]

There is currently a big glut of lawyers in the market. It is especially tough for recent grads with huge student loan debts. There were too many people entering the profession and simple supply and demand is driving the market. In addition there has been big advances in discovery Software and other tools that make first year associates even less valuable.

The profession is no longer a surefire way to get rich.

Do the profession if you want to help people (or causes), don’t do it to get rich. I have the highest respect for Public Defenders and Prosecutors. I just saw the old movie To Kill a Mockingbird, wow what a classic.

[Bubblesitter]

There is currently a big glut of lawyers in the market. It is especially tough for recent grads with huge student loan debts. There were too many people entering the profession and simple supply and demand is driving the market. In addition there has been big advances in discovery Software and other tools that make first year associates even less valuable.

The profession is no longer a surefire way to get rich.

Do the profession if you want to help people (or causes), don’t do it to get rich. I have the highest respect for Public Defenders and Prosecutors. I just saw the old movie To Kill a Mockingbird, wow what a classic.

[CDMA ENG]

I can’t find the Yahoo link for this but I saw it on friday and Yahoo was reporting that 32 people had already applied for the job…

Poor applicants.

CE

[scaredyclassic]

Here’s a side note that seems grotesquely unfair. There’s something called moral fitness and character application u need to pass to get licensed to be an atty. in Ohio a student failed that test because his job plan didn’t involve making enough money to service his huge debt.

As if he had turned down the big bucks job for the low paying one!!!

link;

http://studentpwns.com/2011/01/20/too-much-debt-quit-your-job-or-you-cant-be-a-lawyer/

the debt loads are truly staggering. i know young people carrying in excess of a 200k in student loan debt. who may have a hard time finding a 50,000/yr job.

keep in mind that this debt is NONDISCHARGEABLE in bankruptcy. it is there forever, till you die.

any kid who applies to law school and pays sticker price (around 50,000/yr at many schools) and borrows to live is truly not thinking about the reality of it all.

on the other hand, i can remember borrowing a big chunk of change and being told i was an idiot.

it’s wrong to lend young people this much money,s since they are thinking, hell, they wouldn’t lend it to me if things generally don’t work out for people…

and I have nothing now anyway, so what the hell!

it truly creeps me out.

just checked; tuition at my school is 3x what it was when i started. golly.

but if you go to this inexpensive school

http://www.cslawschool.com/financial-information/tuition-comparison/

live at home, and work, you’d be outh there debt free easily…

that’s what I’d want my kids to do if they were so inclined…

[dumbrenter]

On the bright side, there is some on the job training, health insurance and a clothing allowance.
A clothing allowance!! What else could a new lawyer ask for?

You guys are making too much out of this. Whine if somebody offers a low cost opportunity to network & gain experience while still in school or Whine if the same job is outsourced to China.
Whining itself is becoming so popular these days that it is in the danger of being outsourced itself. What are you going to do then?

[paramount]

I can see this college lending bubble is going to end badly, very badly.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=squat250]Here’s a side note that seems grotesquely unfair. There’s something called moral fitness and character application u need to pass to get licensed to be an atty. in Ohio a student failed that test because his job plan didn’t involve making enough money to service his huge debt.

As if he had turned down the big bucks job for the low paying one!!!

link;

http://studentpwns.com/2011/01/20/too-much-debt-quit-your-job-or-you-cant-be-a-lawyer/

the debt loads are truly staggering. i know young people carrying in excess of a 200k in student loan debt. who may have a hard time finding a 50,000/yr job.

keep in mind that this debt is NONDISCHARGEABLE in bankruptcy. it is there forever, till you die.

any kid who applies to law school and pays sticker price (around 50,000/yr at many schools) and borrows to live is truly not thinking about the reality of it all.

on the other hand, i can remember borrowing a big chunk of change and being told i was an idiot.

it’s wrong to lend young people this much money,s since they are thinking, hell, they wouldn’t lend it to me if things generally don’t work out for people…

and I have nothing now anyway, so what the hell!

it truly creeps me out.

just checked; tuition at my school is 3x what it was when i started. golly.

but if you go to this inexpensive school

http://www.cslawschool.com/financial-information/tuition-comparison/

live at home, and work, you’d be outh there debt free easily…

that’s what I’d want my kids to do if they were so inclined…[/quote]

Good post, scaredy. I feel bad for these kids, also, but realize they put themselves there by borrowing for exorbitant tuition and sometimes borrowing enough for living expenses while a student. That is folly, IMHO, especially in this economy.

As a certified paralegal who charges “piecework” prices and flat fees for particular jobs, I KNOW I likely have a higher net income than some of these new attorneys simply working from my home in my shorts. (Yes, I DO dress to the go the office :))

The problem is that for this exorbitant tuition, they only teach “theory” in law schools. This does NOT prepare the graduate to work in any state. The reality is that each state has their own “Rules of Court.” In CA, each county within the state has its own “Local Rules” and each judge has it’s own “courtroom rules” and “trial rules.”

You can’t learn all this from law school or even paralegal school. The only way to learn it is by doing and being there … repeatedly. A paralegal who has been “in the trenches” for decades has FAR more “experience” than a recent law school graduate but is not “licensed” to practice law. Even though I can argue a motion with my hands cuffed behind my back, unless I am representing myself I will never get the opportunity. Almost every motion I have written has been won by an attorney who did not make any changes to it before it was filed. Back in “my day,” Cal Western SOL in SD charged less than $3K per semester (plus books). I did not have a bachelor’s degree so could not apply. My ship sailed decades ago and I accepted this long ago :=]

Intelligence, skill and expertise has almost nothing to do with “educational level” attained, IMO.

It is unequivocally NOT WORTH IT to attend law school at the current prices, IMHO. I’ve posted here before that most of the attorneys I’ve done work for are PAST retirement age. They still work because their services are in demand and their expertise is sorely needed in “Of Counsel” positions in firms. Most attorneys work until they are near death or have their “hands in the pot” one way or another. Unlike an “employee,” these attorneys are “business partners” and don’t typically get downsized or riffed or given a “golden handshake.” This phenomenon takes away thousands of openings for those new bar card recipients who can’t afford malpractice insurance premiums on their own whilst paying on their student loans at the same time. This is a travesty but it is what it is.

Young people should look very carefully at the majors most likely to pay off in monetary rewards before spending thousands (and years of their lives) on college and graduate school. If none of these fields seem interesting to them, they should get ONLY an associate degree at a low-cost CC (to satisfy their GE credits) and keep their options open for enrolling in a university in the future. During CC and after, they should try to get a job in one of these “hot” fields that seem “boring” to them … even part-time (example: accounting) to try it out and see if they like it before deciding not to major in it. Who knows? They might find it rewarding enough to work towards a bachelor degree in it!

[Coronita]

[quote=paramount]I can see this college lending bubble is going to end badly, very badly.[/quote]

It already is starting to cook…Read about them in the news. They’re talking about it all over…

[scaredyclassic]

Maybe in some sense investing in a professional degree is an inflation hedge like housing. A degree from 15 y ago costs 3 times as much to buy today.

Not sure the analogy holds up.

The asset dies with you.

Maybe a liquor license would’ve been better.

[scaredyclassic]

It’s going to difficult to burst the education bubble because the GOV is gonna keep lending and the kids are gonna keep lining up to take the money..

There’s going to have to be more stories of long term impoverishment to get students to think twice. And there will always be a dumber student waiting to take the smarter guys loan and seat!

Not sure how it ends.

It’s so wrong to be signing up 18 year olds fOr this type of debt. The draft is relatively humane in some ways.

[Coronita]

[quote=squat250]It’s going to difficult to burst the education bubble because the GOV is gonna keep lending and the kids are gonna keep lining up to take the money..

There’s going to have to be more stories of long term impoverishment to get students to think twice. And there will always be a dumber student waiting to take the smarter guys loan and seat!

Not sure how it ends.

It’s so wrong to be signing up 18 year olds fOr this type of debt. The draft is relatively humane in some ways.[/quote]

My goal in life is to pass on an inheritable business to my kid and significant other..The problem with what I do. It doesn’t lend itself to do that….Sometimes, traditional brick and mortar biz is the way to go imho…

Maybe a gas station or pharmacy or liquor store…Just saying….

[Author]

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