OT: Ayn Rand’s “Atlas Shrugged”

[davelj]

[quote=CONCHO]Dave, you missed the third flaw. Some people are sociopathic cheaters, and many of them never get caught or punished. Also, the personalities that cheat gravitate towards positions of power and, over time, the levers of power become concentrated in the hands of sociopathic cheaters. This is the big failing of communism, too. The fact that Bernie Madoff and Ken Lay bilked people out of billions isn’t a fault of capitalism, it’s a fault of certain sociopathic humans. Laws and enforcement are unfortunate necessities to ensure that as many of the cheaters as possible get caught. Laissez-Faire systems could only work if people were angels, but then of course communism would work great if everyone were angels too.

Why does anyone think that *any* system thought up by flawed human beings could ever be perfect? Didn’t they pay attention in Sunday school?[/quote]

Actually I think that Ayn Rand recognized that there were sociopathic cheaters – as you call them – among us. And she recognized, as you do, that such folks seek out positions of power. I think she believed that such folks would have a much harder time lording over the masses under capitalism than under communism, which I think is largely, although not completely, correct. Certainly many of the socialistic characters in Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead were sociopathic power seekers. So, I don’t think the presence of this human trait was completely lost on her.

[jficquette]

Davelj,

That chart shows the correlaton. Notice the denser dots on the lower IQ end and lower income.

I am no expert on her so I really have nothing to say. I would like to suggest though that she had no way of knowing what moving from a labor based economy to an information based economy would do to those born with lesser abilities.

John

[jficquette]

Davelj,

That chart shows the correlaton. Notice the denser dots on the lower IQ end and lower income.

I am no expert on her so I really have nothing to say. I would like to suggest though that she had no way of knowing what moving from a labor based economy to an information based economy would do to those born with lesser abilities.

John

[jficquette]

Davelj,

That chart shows the correlaton. Notice the denser dots on the lower IQ end and lower income.

I am no expert on her so I really have nothing to say. I would like to suggest though that she had no way of knowing what moving from a labor based economy to an information based economy would do to those born with lesser abilities.

John

[jficquette]

Davelj,

That chart shows the correlaton. Notice the denser dots on the lower IQ end and lower income.

I am no expert on her so I really have nothing to say. I would like to suggest though that she had no way of knowing what moving from a labor based economy to an information based economy would do to those born with lesser abilities.

John

[jficquette]

Davelj,

That chart shows the correlaton. Notice the denser dots on the lower IQ end and lower income.

I am no expert on her so I really have nothing to say. I would like to suggest though that she had no way of knowing what moving from a labor based economy to an information based economy would do to those born with lesser abilities.

John

[davelj]

[quote=jficquette]Davelj,

That chart shows the correlaton. Notice the denser dots on the lower IQ end and lower income.

I am no expert on her so I really have nothing to say. I would like to suggest though that she had no way of knowing what moving from a labor based economy to an information based economy would do to those born with lesser abilities.

John

[/quote]

Read the article:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/…

As the author explains and as the scattergraph suggests, the correlation is statistically insignificant. (My use of the word “absolutely” may have overstated the case.) If you don’t know much about her writings then on what do you base your comments?

[davelj]

[quote=jficquette]Davelj,

That chart shows the correlaton. Notice the denser dots on the lower IQ end and lower income.

I am no expert on her so I really have nothing to say. I would like to suggest though that she had no way of knowing what moving from a labor based economy to an information based economy would do to those born with lesser abilities.

John

[/quote]

Read the article:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/…

As the author explains and as the scattergraph suggests, the correlation is statistically insignificant. (My use of the word “absolutely” may have overstated the case.) If you don’t know much about her writings then on what do you base your comments?

[davelj]

[quote=jficquette]Davelj,

That chart shows the correlaton. Notice the denser dots on the lower IQ end and lower income.

I am no expert on her so I really have nothing to say. I would like to suggest though that she had no way of knowing what moving from a labor based economy to an information based economy would do to those born with lesser abilities.

John

[/quote]

Read the article:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/…

As the author explains and as the scattergraph suggests, the correlation is statistically insignificant. (My use of the word “absolutely” may have overstated the case.) If you don’t know much about her writings then on what do you base your comments?

[davelj]

[quote=jficquette]Davelj,

That chart shows the correlaton. Notice the denser dots on the lower IQ end and lower income.

I am no expert on her so I really have nothing to say. I would like to suggest though that she had no way of knowing what moving from a labor based economy to an information based economy would do to those born with lesser abilities.

John

[/quote]

Read the article:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/…

As the author explains and as the scattergraph suggests, the correlation is statistically insignificant. (My use of the word “absolutely” may have overstated the case.) If you don’t know much about her writings then on what do you base your comments?

[davelj]

[quote=jficquette]Davelj,

That chart shows the correlaton. Notice the denser dots on the lower IQ end and lower income.

I am no expert on her so I really have nothing to say. I would like to suggest though that she had no way of knowing what moving from a labor based economy to an information based economy would do to those born with lesser abilities.

John

[/quote]

Read the article:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/…

As the author explains and as the scattergraph suggests, the correlation is statistically insignificant. (My use of the word “absolutely” may have overstated the case.) If you don’t know much about her writings then on what do you base your comments?

[sdgrrl]

One thing I noticed Ayn Rand having a respect for is the Industrialist; John Rockefeller, JP Morgan, Henry Ford etc. It seems the downfall to a business occurs when it leaves the hands of the pull yourself up by your bootstraps owner/creator and into the impersonal hands of greedy CEO’s who are more plugged into the DC circle than the actual hands on operations of the company.

Its not the business owner most of us despise, it’s the corporate guy who breezes into a business, looting as much as he can get and going on with his life elsewhere richer and fatter. Many of these CEO’s have no personal stake other than loss of reputation to make them want to create the best product, but who cares if your unpopular when you have your own island in the South Pacific. Their mentality often seems to me “I better get as much as I can before I get booted outta here”.

-Concho, thank you for your input regarding the Chicago Boys, I’ll have a lot of fun researching it and discovering how it all went wrong.

-Surflust, I agree with your post completely how its a bit unfair to demonize capitalism/free market when we haven’t really seen it happen in the US; though it seems the lending/mortgage industries had a laissez faire existence for awhile and we saw how it ended up. I also agree that in order to have a free market society one must have integrity if only for the sake of doing good business to make more profit.

Butleroftwo, I don’t have too many words. I’m actually happy that Obama put the smack down on Pelosi and told her to take out the Family Panning Pork. Also, I don’t remember Obama apologizing to Arabs, but I do remember him saying something to the extent that we will not apologize for the way we live as Americans, but hey, I admit I’m a supporter so I’m definitely one sided.

-kismetdad, thank you for referencing that article I can’t wait to read it and enjoyed the trivia you threw in there about the level of influence “Atlas Shrugged” has played in lives.

-davelj, I agree luck can play a fortunate role in our lives, but we can’t depend on it. Traditional Chinese culture understands the importance of luck and that it why it is so mystically desired in babies, newlyweds and pretty much every aspect of life. I think Ayn Rand would see luck as a form of mysticism and therefore she would reject it and tell people to plod on regardless of good or bad luck.

-jf, your sounding a little liberal in your wanting to recognize the sadness of the human plight because of dumb people…lol. Nice to see you again.

[sdgrrl]

One thing I noticed Ayn Rand having a respect for is the Industrialist; John Rockefeller, JP Morgan, Henry Ford etc. It seems the downfall to a business occurs when it leaves the hands of the pull yourself up by your bootstraps owner/creator and into the impersonal hands of greedy CEO’s who are more plugged into the DC circle than the actual hands on operations of the company.

Its not the business owner most of us despise, it’s the corporate guy who breezes into a business, looting as much as he can get and going on with his life elsewhere richer and fatter. Many of these CEO’s have no personal stake other than loss of reputation to make them want to create the best product, but who cares if your unpopular when you have your own island in the South Pacific. Their mentality often seems to me “I better get as much as I can before I get booted outta here”.

-Concho, thank you for your input regarding the Chicago Boys, I’ll have a lot of fun researching it and discovering how it all went wrong.

-Surflust, I agree with your post completely how its a bit unfair to demonize capitalism/free market when we haven’t really seen it happen in the US; though it seems the lending/mortgage industries had a laissez faire existence for awhile and we saw how it ended up. I also agree that in order to have a free market society one must have integrity if only for the sake of doing good business to make more profit.

Butleroftwo, I don’t have too many words. I’m actually happy that Obama put the smack down on Pelosi and told her to take out the Family Panning Pork. Also, I don’t remember Obama apologizing to Arabs, but I do remember him saying something to the extent that we will not apologize for the way we live as Americans, but hey, I admit I’m a supporter so I’m definitely one sided.

-kismetdad, thank you for referencing that article I can’t wait to read it and enjoyed the trivia you threw in there about the level of influence “Atlas Shrugged” has played in lives.

-davelj, I agree luck can play a fortunate role in our lives, but we can’t depend on it. Traditional Chinese culture understands the importance of luck and that it why it is so mystically desired in babies, newlyweds and pretty much every aspect of life. I think Ayn Rand would see luck as a form of mysticism and therefore she would reject it and tell people to plod on regardless of good or bad luck.

-jf, your sounding a little liberal in your wanting to recognize the sadness of the human plight because of dumb people…lol. Nice to see you again.

[sdgrrl]

One thing I noticed Ayn Rand having a respect for is the Industrialist; John Rockefeller, JP Morgan, Henry Ford etc. It seems the downfall to a business occurs when it leaves the hands of the pull yourself up by your bootstraps owner/creator and into the impersonal hands of greedy CEO’s who are more plugged into the DC circle than the actual hands on operations of the company.

Its not the business owner most of us despise, it’s the corporate guy who breezes into a business, looting as much as he can get and going on with his life elsewhere richer and fatter. Many of these CEO’s have no personal stake other than loss of reputation to make them want to create the best product, but who cares if your unpopular when you have your own island in the South Pacific. Their mentality often seems to me “I better get as much as I can before I get booted outta here”.

-Concho, thank you for your input regarding the Chicago Boys, I’ll have a lot of fun researching it and discovering how it all went wrong.

-Surflust, I agree with your post completely how its a bit unfair to demonize capitalism/free market when we haven’t really seen it happen in the US; though it seems the lending/mortgage industries had a laissez faire existence for awhile and we saw how it ended up. I also agree that in order to have a free market society one must have integrity if only for the sake of doing good business to make more profit.

Butleroftwo, I don’t have too many words. I’m actually happy that Obama put the smack down on Pelosi and told her to take out the Family Panning Pork. Also, I don’t remember Obama apologizing to Arabs, but I do remember him saying something to the extent that we will not apologize for the way we live as Americans, but hey, I admit I’m a supporter so I’m definitely one sided.

-kismetdad, thank you for referencing that article I can’t wait to read it and enjoyed the trivia you threw in there about the level of influence “Atlas Shrugged” has played in lives.

-davelj, I agree luck can play a fortunate role in our lives, but we can’t depend on it. Traditional Chinese culture understands the importance of luck and that it why it is so mystically desired in babies, newlyweds and pretty much every aspect of life. I think Ayn Rand would see luck as a form of mysticism and therefore she would reject it and tell people to plod on regardless of good or bad luck.

-jf, your sounding a little liberal in your wanting to recognize the sadness of the human plight because of dumb people…lol. Nice to see you again.

[sdgrrl]

One thing I noticed Ayn Rand having a respect for is the Industrialist; John Rockefeller, JP Morgan, Henry Ford etc. It seems the downfall to a business occurs when it leaves the hands of the pull yourself up by your bootstraps owner/creator and into the impersonal hands of greedy CEO’s who are more plugged into the DC circle than the actual hands on operations of the company.

Its not the business owner most of us despise, it’s the corporate guy who breezes into a business, looting as much as he can get and going on with his life elsewhere richer and fatter. Many of these CEO’s have no personal stake other than loss of reputation to make them want to create the best product, but who cares if your unpopular when you have your own island in the South Pacific. Their mentality often seems to me “I better get as much as I can before I get booted outta here”.

-Concho, thank you for your input regarding the Chicago Boys, I’ll have a lot of fun researching it and discovering how it all went wrong.

-Surflust, I agree with your post completely how its a bit unfair to demonize capitalism/free market when we haven’t really seen it happen in the US; though it seems the lending/mortgage industries had a laissez faire existence for awhile and we saw how it ended up. I also agree that in order to have a free market society one must have integrity if only for the sake of doing good business to make more profit.

Butleroftwo, I don’t have too many words. I’m actually happy that Obama put the smack down on Pelosi and told her to take out the Family Panning Pork. Also, I don’t remember Obama apologizing to Arabs, but I do remember him saying something to the extent that we will not apologize for the way we live as Americans, but hey, I admit I’m a supporter so I’m definitely one sided.

-kismetdad, thank you for referencing that article I can’t wait to read it and enjoyed the trivia you threw in there about the level of influence “Atlas Shrugged” has played in lives.

-davelj, I agree luck can play a fortunate role in our lives, but we can’t depend on it. Traditional Chinese culture understands the importance of luck and that it why it is so mystically desired in babies, newlyweds and pretty much every aspect of life. I think Ayn Rand would see luck as a form of mysticism and therefore she would reject it and tell people to plod on regardless of good or bad luck.

-jf, your sounding a little liberal in your wanting to recognize the sadness of the human plight because of dumb people…lol. Nice to see you again.

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