OT: Ayn Rand’s “Atlas Shrugged”

[sd_matt]

[quote=briansd1][quote=Arraya]
I’m not pessimistic about the world. It’s this 18th century social organization devised by pre-science enlightenment philosophers and based on abstractions that we are running that I am pessimistic about. It’s past its shelf-life and starting to stink.

Economics, is essentially politics wrapped in complex math to give it the veneer of scientific legitimacy. [/quote]

Arraya, I think that you’re far ahead our times.

The truth is that money makes the world go ’round. Money motivates people. Without it economic activity would slow down to a halt. And that would not be good for our standard of living.

As you suggested before, will some technology replace money? Not for a long time, IMHO.

I’ve said that, maybe one day, we’ll achieve a Star Trek like world where we work looking forward the the permission to enjoy the hollow deck.[/quote]

Since we’re threadjackin here may recommend the book “The Singularity is Near” by Raymond Kurzweil. How do I sum it up..hmmm…I guess it predicts how people will merge with technology and explores the good and bad. Think of it as a legit version of Art Bell episode.

I always liked Star Trek for the same reason that I liked the original Law and Order. They both made you think but in different ways. The technology of Star Trek is ridiculous in some ways.

The biggies are what happens when machines become more intelligent than people and what happens when people augment their own intelligence with technology. To take the second part and transition into politics. I am left wondering whom will be allowed by the PTB to augment themselves, can that be even controlled, ect ect. A big can of worms.

[Arraya]

[quote=briansd1]

1: The truth is that money makes the world go ’round.
2: Money motivates people.
3:Without it economic activity would slow down to a halt. And that would not be good for our standard of living.
[/quote]

1: False, energy makes the world go round, literally.

Money, monetary interactions and it’s study(economics) is a set of rules, ‘incentives’ and information for people to follow – which “make the world go round”

2: The freedom(goods, services and survival needs) that money attains motivate people. As far as innovation, well, no – that has been looked at in scientific studies ad nauseum

3:The need for economic activity which essentially means that enough money needs to flow around so the whole system does not seize up is necessity of this system. True. It’s also one of the major flaws of the system. Where people are “encouraged” to behave a certain way to serve the needs of the system.

On the consumer side it manifests in anxiety driven pathological consumerism driven by propaganda, er, advertising. Debt addiction and a host of other psychological ills.

On the natural resources side, it means the system requires exponentially increases amounts of natural resource extraction and that is impossible. We are starting to bump up to planetary limitations(limits to growth) now.

[Arraya]

[quote=briansd1]

1: The truth is that money makes the world go ’round.
2: Money motivates people.
3:Without it economic activity would slow down to a halt. And that would not be good for our standard of living.
[/quote]

1: False, energy makes the world go round, literally.

Money, monetary interactions and it’s study(economics) is a set of rules, ‘incentives’ and information for people to follow – which “make the world go round”

2: The freedom(goods, services and survival needs) that money attains motivate people. As far as innovation, well, no – that has been looked at in scientific studies ad nauseum

3:The need for economic activity which essentially means that enough money needs to flow around so the whole system does not seize up is necessity of this system. True. It’s also one of the major flaws of the system. Where people are “encouraged” to behave a certain way to serve the needs of the system.

On the consumer side it manifests in anxiety driven pathological consumerism driven by propaganda, er, advertising. Debt addiction and a host of other psychological ills.

On the natural resources side, it means the system requires exponentially increases amounts of natural resource extraction and that is impossible. We are starting to bump up to planetary limitations(limits to growth) now.

[Arraya]

[quote=briansd1]

1: The truth is that money makes the world go ’round.
2: Money motivates people.
3:Without it economic activity would slow down to a halt. And that would not be good for our standard of living.
[/quote]

1: False, energy makes the world go round, literally.

Money, monetary interactions and it’s study(economics) is a set of rules, ‘incentives’ and information for people to follow – which “make the world go round”

2: The freedom(goods, services and survival needs) that money attains motivate people. As far as innovation, well, no – that has been looked at in scientific studies ad nauseum

3:The need for economic activity which essentially means that enough money needs to flow around so the whole system does not seize up is necessity of this system. True. It’s also one of the major flaws of the system. Where people are “encouraged” to behave a certain way to serve the needs of the system.

On the consumer side it manifests in anxiety driven pathological consumerism driven by propaganda, er, advertising. Debt addiction and a host of other psychological ills.

On the natural resources side, it means the system requires exponentially increases amounts of natural resource extraction and that is impossible. We are starting to bump up to planetary limitations(limits to growth) now.

[Arraya]

[quote=briansd1]

1: The truth is that money makes the world go ’round.
2: Money motivates people.
3:Without it economic activity would slow down to a halt. And that would not be good for our standard of living.
[/quote]

1: False, energy makes the world go round, literally.

Money, monetary interactions and it’s study(economics) is a set of rules, ‘incentives’ and information for people to follow – which “make the world go round”

2: The freedom(goods, services and survival needs) that money attains motivate people. As far as innovation, well, no – that has been looked at in scientific studies ad nauseum

3:The need for economic activity which essentially means that enough money needs to flow around so the whole system does not seize up is necessity of this system. True. It’s also one of the major flaws of the system. Where people are “encouraged” to behave a certain way to serve the needs of the system.

On the consumer side it manifests in anxiety driven pathological consumerism driven by propaganda, er, advertising. Debt addiction and a host of other psychological ills.

On the natural resources side, it means the system requires exponentially increases amounts of natural resource extraction and that is impossible. We are starting to bump up to planetary limitations(limits to growth) now.

[Arraya]

[quote=briansd1]

1: The truth is that money makes the world go ’round.
2: Money motivates people.
3:Without it economic activity would slow down to a halt. And that would not be good for our standard of living.
[/quote]

1: False, energy makes the world go round, literally.

Money, monetary interactions and it’s study(economics) is a set of rules, ‘incentives’ and information for people to follow – which “make the world go round”

2: The freedom(goods, services and survival needs) that money attains motivate people. As far as innovation, well, no – that has been looked at in scientific studies ad nauseum

3:The need for economic activity which essentially means that enough money needs to flow around so the whole system does not seize up is necessity of this system. True. It’s also one of the major flaws of the system. Where people are “encouraged” to behave a certain way to serve the needs of the system.

On the consumer side it manifests in anxiety driven pathological consumerism driven by propaganda, er, advertising. Debt addiction and a host of other psychological ills.

On the natural resources side, it means the system requires exponentially increases amounts of natural resource extraction and that is impossible. We are starting to bump up to planetary limitations(limits to growth) now.

[briansd1]

[quote=Arraya] energy makes the world go round, literally.[/quote]

Yeah but without money or other system of incentives, the economy would slow down to a halt.

I was reading that, in the Middle Ages, building churches and cathedrals for the purpose of salvation drove economic activity in Europe.

[quote=Arraya]
On the consumer side it manifests in anxiety driven pathological consumerism driven by propaganda, er, advertising. Debt addiction and a host of other psychological ills.
[/quote]

True that consumerism is a perverse system that keeps people buying and throwing away.

But better to have seemingly happy, busy, employed, pathological consumers than discontented unemployed masses ready to revolt.

[briansd1]

[quote=Arraya] energy makes the world go round, literally.[/quote]

Yeah but without money or other system of incentives, the economy would slow down to a halt.

I was reading that, in the Middle Ages, building churches and cathedrals for the purpose of salvation drove economic activity in Europe.

[quote=Arraya]
On the consumer side it manifests in anxiety driven pathological consumerism driven by propaganda, er, advertising. Debt addiction and a host of other psychological ills.
[/quote]

True that consumerism is a perverse system that keeps people buying and throwing away.

But better to have seemingly happy, busy, employed, pathological consumers than discontented unemployed masses ready to revolt.

[briansd1]

[quote=Arraya] energy makes the world go round, literally.[/quote]

Yeah but without money or other system of incentives, the economy would slow down to a halt.

I was reading that, in the Middle Ages, building churches and cathedrals for the purpose of salvation drove economic activity in Europe.

[quote=Arraya]
On the consumer side it manifests in anxiety driven pathological consumerism driven by propaganda, er, advertising. Debt addiction and a host of other psychological ills.
[/quote]

True that consumerism is a perverse system that keeps people buying and throwing away.

But better to have seemingly happy, busy, employed, pathological consumers than discontented unemployed masses ready to revolt.

[briansd1]

[quote=Arraya] energy makes the world go round, literally.[/quote]

Yeah but without money or other system of incentives, the economy would slow down to a halt.

I was reading that, in the Middle Ages, building churches and cathedrals for the purpose of salvation drove economic activity in Europe.

[quote=Arraya]
On the consumer side it manifests in anxiety driven pathological consumerism driven by propaganda, er, advertising. Debt addiction and a host of other psychological ills.
[/quote]

True that consumerism is a perverse system that keeps people buying and throwing away.

But better to have seemingly happy, busy, employed, pathological consumers than discontented unemployed masses ready to revolt.

[briansd1]

[quote=Arraya] energy makes the world go round, literally.[/quote]

Yeah but without money or other system of incentives, the economy would slow down to a halt.

I was reading that, in the Middle Ages, building churches and cathedrals for the purpose of salvation drove economic activity in Europe.

[quote=Arraya]
On the consumer side it manifests in anxiety driven pathological consumerism driven by propaganda, er, advertising. Debt addiction and a host of other psychological ills.
[/quote]

True that consumerism is a perverse system that keeps people buying and throwing away.

But better to have seemingly happy, busy, employed, pathological consumers than discontented unemployed masses ready to revolt.

[briansd1]

[quote=Arraya]
The financial system is not real. It’s layers of abstractions that dictate and require a certain behavior. If the whole thing spontaneously combusted it would not mean a damn thing to the natural order of things( you know like water and air quality, energy supplies, the ability to move things around with our applied scientific knowledge called technology). You know the things that are empirically tested and quantifiable. The financial system is only in our heads and thus, if it collapsed, does not mean anything unless we choose to act in a detrimental manner.

[/quote]

That’s a very interesting thought, Arraya.

You’ve said before that the financial system would collapse on its own weight and that you would rather have it occur sooner than later.

But if money is not real and something just conjuged up by humans, then it doesn’t matter if we continue to spend and get into debt.

So why not enjoy to the maximum what money can provide us today? The money denominated accounts that we keep aren’t real anyway… something else will replace them in the future.

If I can acquire hard assets (such as real estate) today, then why not do it? My money could go poof tomorrow, but I will still have the hard assets. That’s probably why people are buying gold and commodities.

[briansd1]

[quote=Arraya]
The financial system is not real. It’s layers of abstractions that dictate and require a certain behavior. If the whole thing spontaneously combusted it would not mean a damn thing to the natural order of things( you know like water and air quality, energy supplies, the ability to move things around with our applied scientific knowledge called technology). You know the things that are empirically tested and quantifiable. The financial system is only in our heads and thus, if it collapsed, does not mean anything unless we choose to act in a detrimental manner.

[/quote]

That’s a very interesting thought, Arraya.

You’ve said before that the financial system would collapse on its own weight and that you would rather have it occur sooner than later.

But if money is not real and something just conjuged up by humans, then it doesn’t matter if we continue to spend and get into debt.

So why not enjoy to the maximum what money can provide us today? The money denominated accounts that we keep aren’t real anyway… something else will replace them in the future.

If I can acquire hard assets (such as real estate) today, then why not do it? My money could go poof tomorrow, but I will still have the hard assets. That’s probably why people are buying gold and commodities.

[briansd1]

[quote=Arraya]
The financial system is not real. It’s layers of abstractions that dictate and require a certain behavior. If the whole thing spontaneously combusted it would not mean a damn thing to the natural order of things( you know like water and air quality, energy supplies, the ability to move things around with our applied scientific knowledge called technology). You know the things that are empirically tested and quantifiable. The financial system is only in our heads and thus, if it collapsed, does not mean anything unless we choose to act in a detrimental manner.

[/quote]

That’s a very interesting thought, Arraya.

You’ve said before that the financial system would collapse on its own weight and that you would rather have it occur sooner than later.

But if money is not real and something just conjuged up by humans, then it doesn’t matter if we continue to spend and get into debt.

So why not enjoy to the maximum what money can provide us today? The money denominated accounts that we keep aren’t real anyway… something else will replace them in the future.

If I can acquire hard assets (such as real estate) today, then why not do it? My money could go poof tomorrow, but I will still have the hard assets. That’s probably why people are buying gold and commodities.

[briansd1]

[quote=Arraya]
The financial system is not real. It’s layers of abstractions that dictate and require a certain behavior. If the whole thing spontaneously combusted it would not mean a damn thing to the natural order of things( you know like water and air quality, energy supplies, the ability to move things around with our applied scientific knowledge called technology). You know the things that are empirically tested and quantifiable. The financial system is only in our heads and thus, if it collapsed, does not mean anything unless we choose to act in a detrimental manner.

[/quote]

That’s a very interesting thought, Arraya.

You’ve said before that the financial system would collapse on its own weight and that you would rather have it occur sooner than later.

But if money is not real and something just conjuged up by humans, then it doesn’t matter if we continue to spend and get into debt.

So why not enjoy to the maximum what money can provide us today? The money denominated accounts that we keep aren’t real anyway… something else will replace them in the future.

If I can acquire hard assets (such as real estate) today, then why not do it? My money could go poof tomorrow, but I will still have the hard assets. That’s probably why people are buying gold and commodities.

[Author]

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