Nationswide protests-will they spread?

[briansd1]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
Brian: Examples, please.[/quote]

The period during and after any revolution is always a period of economic recession. It can take decades for output to return to pre-revolution levels.

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
Brian: Progressive change? Within the existing system? I’m presuming you mean the current system, because in your next breath you mention reform of the system. Okay, I’ll bite. What change? What reform? No more aphorisms or tautologies, please, but actual ideas.
[/quote]

I would start with implementing Paul Krugman’s, Robert Reich’s and Elizabeth Warren’s ideas.

These guys are intelligent scholars who are willing to work within the existing system. I would never want a hot blooded revolutionary who doesn’t have economic background, but who rises by happenstance, in charge of the economy.

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
And, the use of “eminence grise” was entirely sarcastic. Krugman is the Rush Limbaugh of the economics “profession”. [/quote]

I believe that the real eminences grises are Wall Street executives and corporate executives. We need to find a way run the country for the benefits of the citizens, not the corporations.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook][quote=briansd1]
Revolution only leads to poverty and chaos. The problem view revolution, IMO, is that it sweep away the establishment and intelligentsia and installs ignorant people in power who don’t any have any clue how run and manage a country or an economy.
[/quote]

Brian: Which revolutions, SPECIFICALLY. You offer aphorisms and non-specific examples.

So… which revolutions? The American? French? Russian? Chinese? Which?

[briansd1]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

So… which revolutions? The American? French? Russian? Chinese? Which?[/quote]

All of them.

Revolution have some feel good moments but political upheaval goes along with economic hardship.

Some argue that the American Revolution was in part a result of a bad economy.
http://teacher.scholastic.com/scholasticnews/indepth/upfront/features/index.asp?article=f011209_Revolution

Of course, the French Revolution was because of a lousy economy. The French Revolution brought about the Reign of Terror.

Russia, China,… revolutions did not improve people’s lives.

[sd_matt]

[quote=Arraya][quote=AN][quote=sd_matt]To me this whole protest is like the chicken protesting the fox when the chicken should be protesting the farmer for lifting the fence.[/quote]
That would require some connecting of the dots. Way too complicated and time consuming. Chickens don’t think that deep.[/quote]

Maybe some of the chickens might ask why the farmer is controlled by the fox? What is the motivation for the farmer lifting the fence? Let’s connect some dots.

Here is some video of the farmer abusing the chickens again.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/19/uc-davis-pepper-spray-video_n_1103075.html%5B/quote%5D
LOL…punishment for being stupid! They should be occupying Congress or the City or State Govt.
Correct me if I’m wrong here…hasn’t the Tea Party’s focus been more on government? I’m not saying that I agree or disagree with the Tea Party philosophically.If they are indeed focusing more on the farmer than the fox than that would make them smarter than the Occupy folks.

[Arraya]

[quote=sd_matt][quote=Arraya][quote=AN][quote=sd_matt]To me this whole protest is like the chicken protesting the fox when the chicken should be protesting the farmer for lifting the fence.[/quote]
That would require some connecting of the dots. Way too complicated and time consuming. Chickens don’t think that deep.[/quote]

Maybe some of the chickens might ask why the farmer is controlled by the fox? What is the motivation for the farmer lifting the fence? Let’s connect some dots.

Here is some video of the farmer abusing the chickens again.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/19/uc-davis-pepper-spray-video_n_1103075.html%5B/quote%5D
LOL…punishment for being stupid! They should be occupying Congress or the City or State Govt.
Correct me if I’m wrong here…hasn’t the Tea Party’s focus been more on government? I’m not saying that I agree or disagree with the Tea Party philosophically.If they are indeed focusing more on the farmer than the fox than that would make them smarter than the Occupy folks.[/quote]

The financial system is where the power resides. It should be apparent to all that capital dictates to governments. In Modern “liberal” governments, the rich are pitted against the poor, gaining their wealth by appropriating the work of others; and the government is in “business” to protect the ruling class or what James Madison called the “leveling impulses” of the propertyless multitude. What you are seeing is the naturally arising leveling impulses that grow out of system built on such contradictions.

The capitalist class runs the government and their power resides in the financial system – which demands and dictates abhorrent and anti-social behavior.

Regulating this abomination of system is a complete waste of time – only complete dissolution will do.

I agree that they should not be solely focusing on the financial system but our whole socioeconomic paradigm and its ontological underpinnings.

[sd_matt]

[quote=Arraya][quote=sd_matt][quote=Arraya][quote=AN][quote=sd_matt]To me this whole protest is like the chicken protesting the fox when the chicken should be protesting the farmer for lifting the fence.[/quote]
That would require some connecting of the dots. Way too complicated and time consuming. Chickens don’t think that deep.[/quote]

Maybe some of the chickens might ask why the farmer is controlled by the fox? What is the motivation for the farmer lifting the fence? Let’s connect some dots.

Here is some video of the farmer abusing the chickens again.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/19/uc-davis-pepper-spray-video_n_1103075.html%5B/quote%5D
LOL…punishment for being stupid! They should be occupying Congress or the City or State Govt.
Correct me if I’m wrong here…hasn’t the Tea Party’s focus been more on government? I’m not saying that I agree or disagree with the Tea Party philosophically.If they are indeed focusing more on the farmer than the fox than that would make them smarter than the Occupy folks.[/quote]

The financial system is where the power resides. It should be apparent to all that capital dictates to governments. In Modern “liberal” governments, the rich are pitted against the poor, gaining their wealth by appropriating the work of others; and the government is in “business” to protect the ruling class or what James Madison called the “leveling impulses” of the propertyless multitude. What you are seeing is the naturally arising leveling impulses that grow out of system built on such contradictions.

The capitalist class runs the government and their power resides in the financial system – which demands and dictates abhorrent and anti-social behavior.

Regulating this abomination of system is a complete waste of time – only complete dissolution will do.

I agree that they should not be solely focusing on the financial system but our whole socioeconomic paradigm and its ontological underpinnings.[/quote]

If the masses continue to fail to take advantage of this massive opportunity to educate themselves then they will never know with what to replace this current abomination. They will simply be duped again.
Every liberal knows who Michael Moore is but none seem to know who Dean Baker is. Every conservative knows who Rush and Hannity are but how many know of Peter Schiff?
And you can find these people on the net…even YouTube of all places simply by asking “Whom in the economic world saw this coming?”
Simply doing this would be a change of the paradigm. Of course the sheeple will never do this….sigh.

[bubba99]

I would like to bring to the discussion the recent AT&T F/U that will cost those of us foolish enough to still own ATT stock 4 Billion $$$. Randall Stephenson will continue as CEO in spite of the really bad decision to guarantee T-Mobile a 4 Billion Dollar non-completion fee if they could not get regulatory approval. Randall and the board will continue as part of the .1%, while ATT employees who lost the wrong client are toast.

Corzine who stole 1.2 Billion will remain in relative comfort, while common thieves are in jail for life.

OWS is fueled by the complete lack of accountability of the .1%, while the 99% go to jail for the smallest transgression. Like the royalty that came before them, the .1% actually believe they are worthy and divine, and deserve all they get no matter how bad their decision process – no matter who is put out of work or how much is stolen(Corzine).

OWS will continue to grow until either all the possible police power is brought to crush it, or the revolution actually takes hold, and democracy is taken back.

[CA renter]

[quote=SK in CV][quote=Arraya]Maybe some of the chickens might ask why the farmer is controlled by the fox? What is the motivation for the farmer lifting the fence? Let’s connect some dots.

[/quote]

Bingo. I think that’s exactly what this is about. It’s the evil fox AND the farmer who has more than just lifted the fence, he has served the chickens on a silver platter. While the farmer is telling the chickens to renew his contract, because he knows what’s best for them.

And some chickens, who believe they sit at the top of the roost and are safe, argue that letting the foxes have free reign of the hen house, and sacrificing the bottom rung of hens, cull them, so to speak, is the solution. Destroy their nests, evict them from their shelter, and somehow equilibrium will be restored. Gold feed. No more fiat feed. With carcasses everywhere. Problem solved.

Who wants wings?[/quote]

Great posts from both of you.

[masayako]

1. Good intention but bad execution & marketing
2. Lack of coherent objectives

will seal the deal for them. Unfortunately, the OWS movement is not making the slightest ding to the corrupted system. It’s just causing headaches to the general public and getting more and more negative publicity. It could have been different if they come up with their solid objectives and run with them instead of it bring “all over the place”. That’s just my feeling.

[sd_matt]

I watched part of Schiff debating the OWS people and turned it off. All he had to say was “Look guys. I warned you all ahead of time. I’m built my business on honesty. I’m the example of what good business is and what it should be across the board”.

But those people are so thick that they will probably know the Bakers, Toscanos, Roubinis of the world.

Angry chickens running in circles pecking at random things.

[Coronita]

[quote=bubba99]I would like to bring to the discussion the recent AT&T F/U that will cost those of us foolish enough to still own ATT stock 4 Billion $$$. Randall Stephenson will continue as CEO in spite of the really bad decision to guarantee T-Mobile a 4 Billion Dollar non-completion fee if they could not get regulatory approval. Randall and the board will continue as part of the .1%, while ATT employees who lost the wrong client are toast.

Corzine who stole 1.2 Billion will remain in relative comfort, while common thieves are in jail for life.

OWS is fueled by the complete lack of accountability of the .1%, while the 99% go to jail for the smallest transgression. Like the royalty that came before them, the .1% actually believe they are worthy and divine, and deserve all they get no matter how bad their decision process – no matter who is put out of work or how much is stolen(Corzine).

OWS will continue to grow until either all the possible police power is brought to crush it, or the revolution actually takes hold, and democracy is taken back.[/quote]

1) Were you forced to own ATT stock?

2) I don’t recall ATT getting a government bailout…

You do realize the $4billion breakup fee includes assets (for example wireless spectrum).

I don’t think there was anything wrong… ATT made a decision to try to acquire t-mobile. These transactions always have a breakup fee. Government stepped in and says (is saying no) because of monopoly concerns…
(In this case, I would think that ATT + TMobile would result in higher consumer prices…It would definitely drive down vendor costs to since there would be less competition there too)…But nevertheless, last time I checked, ATT is still profitable.Why should this be a OWS protest again? If people don’t like ATT’s business decisions and think they are ripping off consumers, don’t use ATT. It’s that simple….

a) Don’t use their residential landline service. You can get voip such as ooma like I do.

b) Don’t use their cell service. You can use att, tmobile, verizon, sprint, or the really small players too

c) Don’t use att uverse…You can go to your cable or satellite dish.

The problem with OWS is most people don’t know WTF they are protesting against…Just something that has a big financial dollar….I don’t see any fundamental difference between tea-baggers and ows folks frankly…

BTW: ATT giving 4billion to tmobile is going to do nothing more than prop up tmobile. The companies that are really going to be hurting are sprint,cricket,and other small players…Because tmobile never really competed directly with Verizon and ATT. Tmobile was always a lower cost alternative that competes with sprint, cricket,etc….If they gain 4billion, they would come out much stronger…

[paramount]

[quote=masayako]1. Good intention but bad execution & marketing
2. Lack of coherent objectives

will seal the deal for them. Unfortunately, the OWS movement is not making the slightest ding to the corrupted system. It’s just causing headaches to the general public and getting more and more negative publicity. It could have been different if they come up with their solid objectives and run with them instead of it bring “all over the place”. That’s just my feeling.[/quote]

In a way it was successful b/c it got people talking.

The negative publicity no doubt primarily originated from the establishment.

By the way, I can’t help but wonder if local police and DHS used OWS as an exercise (among other things)?

[Arraya]

Well, this has to make you scratch your head at a time of economic turmoil and civil disobedience.

This is pecking order preservation legislation. Or to protect from what James Madison called the “leveling impulses” of the masses.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/12/16/1046078/-Obama-has-THROWN-Down-the-Gauntlet:-Occupy-Must-Stand-and-Fight-NOW!-?via=siderecent

I IMPLORE every single Occupier in the this nation to watch and share this video. The legislation that this fascist government and administration is worthy of Nazi Germany. And, that is NOT an exaggeration. It is a fact. I can not do justice to the implications of this bill, please watch the video.

Again and again and again, Obama has betrayed the American citizenry and governed for expansion of corporate & military power and profit. And, again and again and again, many of his supporters have rationalized/justified/or even championed policy and appointments from the Obama administration that would have drawn near universal protest and outrage if implemented by Republicans or the Bush administration.

This must end. It is time for Occupy to not only challenge the corporate power structure, but unflinchingly challenge ANY politician or political party that governs against the people for the expansion of corporate/military profit.

I do not know how a single American, democrat/republican/independent/green or otherwise can support ANY politician that would codify indefinite detention without charges or trial against American citizens. It is insanity. Yet, if we march forward and move along with the circus act that is the two party stage corporate election circus of 2012, we are all enablers of the destruction of our constitution and unraveling the last tattered remnants of our democracy.

There is no lesser of two evils. There is now only evil. And, it is up to us to stand with courage to create a different alternative and dialogue to solve this crisis.

Obama can’t be the Occupy movement’s nominee. Neither can any of the Republicans. They do not and WILL NOT represent us. This bill proves that fact beyond a shadow of any doubt.

We must move forward with courage.

ABSOLUTE MUST READ: http://www.salon.com/…

[CA renter]

[quote=Arraya]Well, this has to make you scratch your head at a time of economic turmoil and civil disobedience.

This is pecking order preservation legislation. Or to protect from what James Madison called the “leveling impulses” of the masses.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/12/16/1046078/-Obama-has-THROWN-Down-the-Gauntlet:-Occupy-Must-Stand-and-Fight-NOW!-?via=siderecent

I IMPLORE every single Occupier in the this nation to watch and share this video. The legislation that this fascist government and administration is worthy of Nazi Germany. And, that is NOT an exaggeration. It is a fact. I can not do justice to the implications of this bill, please watch the video.

Again and again and again, Obama has betrayed the American citizenry and governed for expansion of corporate & military power and profit. And, again and again and again, many of his supporters have rationalized/justified/or even championed policy and appointments from the Obama administration that would have drawn near universal protest and outrage if implemented by Republicans or the Bush administration.

This must end. It is time for Occupy to not only challenge the corporate power structure, but unflinchingly challenge ANY politician or political party that governs against the people for the expansion of corporate/military profit.

I do not know how a single American, democrat/republican/independent/green or otherwise can support ANY politician that would codify indefinite detention without charges or trial against American citizens. It is insanity. Yet, if we march forward and move along with the circus act that is the two party stage corporate election circus of 2012, we are all enablers of the destruction of our constitution and unraveling the last tattered remnants of our democracy.

There is no lesser of two evils. There is now only evil. And, it is up to us to stand with courage to create a different alternative and dialogue to solve this crisis.

Obama can’t be the Occupy movement’s nominee. Neither can any of the Republicans. They do not and WILL NOT represent us. This bill proves that fact beyond a shadow of any doubt.

We must move forward with courage.

ABSOLUTE MUST READ: http://www.salon.com/…

[/quote]

Agreed, this should send shivers down every American citizen’s spine.

[paramount]

Our best hope is Ron Paul.

[Author]

Posts