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[lostkitty]

nsr-

Universal healthcare is a potential solution, however, it is not panacea.

That is exactly what we are discussing – the fact that universal healthcare is a possible solution to our absolutely horrible current system.  No one here is dumb enough to believe in any 'panacea'.  There are downsides to everything.

 One thing no one is discussing is how much the current system, in particular the meidcal insurance costs to businesses (especially small businesses), is a major drain on the resources/profits of these companies.  Spiralling healthcare costs, especially of the retirees living on pensions, has severely stressed, and even bankrupt many a company's pension program.

 This has resulted in the elimination of these programs by many companies for current and future employees. 

[lostkitty]

nsr-

Universal healthcare is a potential solution, however, it is not panacea.

That is exactly what we are discussing – the fact that universal healthcare is a possible solution to our absolutely horrible current system.  No one here is dumb enough to believe in any 'panacea'.  There are downsides to everything.

 One thing no one is discussing is how much the current system, in particular the meidcal insurance costs to businesses (especially small businesses), is a major drain on the resources/profits of these companies.  Spiralling healthcare costs, especially of the retirees living on pensions, has severely stressed, and even bankrupt many a company's pension program.

 This has resulted in the elimination of these programs by many companies for current and future employees. 

[lostkitty]

nsr, all that logic and data, that's not fair. Please, be swayed by PC's anecdotes.

Here are some facts for you jg…

Premiums for employer-based health insurance rose by 7.7 percent in 2006. Small employers saw their premiums, on average, increase 8.8 percent. Firms with less than 24 workers, experienced an increase of 10.5 percent

The annual premium that a health insurer charges an employer for a health plan covering a family of four averaged $11,500 in 2006. Workers contributed nearly $3,000, or 10 percent more than they did in 2005.The annual premiums for family coverage significantly eclipsed the gross earnings for a full-time, minimum-wage worker ($10,712).

In 2005, the United States spent 16 percent of its gross domestic product (GDP) on health care.  Although nearly 47 million Americans are uninsured, the United States spends more on health care than other industrialized nations, and those countries provide health insurance to all their citizens.  Health care spending accounted for 10.9 percent of the GDP in Switzerland, 10.7 percent in Germany, 9.7 percent in Canada and 9.5 percent in France.

Premiums for employer-sponsored health insurance in the United States have been rising four times faster on average than workers' earnings since 2000.

 

[lostkitty]

nsr, all that logic and data, that's not fair. Please, be swayed by PC's anecdotes.

Here are some facts for you jg…

Premiums for employer-based health insurance rose by 7.7 percent in 2006. Small employers saw their premiums, on average, increase 8.8 percent. Firms with less than 24 workers, experienced an increase of 10.5 percent

The annual premium that a health insurer charges an employer for a health plan covering a family of four averaged $11,500 in 2006. Workers contributed nearly $3,000, or 10 percent more than they did in 2005.The annual premiums for family coverage significantly eclipsed the gross earnings for a full-time, minimum-wage worker ($10,712).

In 2005, the United States spent 16 percent of its gross domestic product (GDP) on health care.  Although nearly 47 million Americans are uninsured, the United States spends more on health care than other industrialized nations, and those countries provide health insurance to all their citizens.  Health care spending accounted for 10.9 percent of the GDP in Switzerland, 10.7 percent in Germany, 9.7 percent in Canada and 9.5 percent in France.

Premiums for employer-sponsored health insurance in the United States have been rising four times faster on average than workers' earnings since 2000.

 

[Anonymous]

Here’s a fact for you, lk: my company’s health insurance premiums went up 16%, effective June ’07. And, our pay raises average 5%.

Yeah, things are tough. Big deal.

That’s why we went to HSAs two years ago. A 16% rise hurts a lot less when it’s on a relatively inexpensive, high deductible health insurance plan ($4-6K per year for a family of four).

Pay for ordinary medical expenses out of your pocket, and rely upon health insurance for catastrophic coverage. Revolutionary concept.

[Anonymous]

Here’s a fact for you, lk: my company’s health insurance premiums went up 16%, effective June ’07. And, our pay raises average 5%.

Yeah, things are tough. Big deal.

That’s why we went to HSAs two years ago. A 16% rise hurts a lot less when it’s on a relatively inexpensive, high deductible health insurance plan ($4-6K per year for a family of four).

Pay for ordinary medical expenses out of your pocket, and rely upon health insurance for catastrophic coverage. Revolutionary concept.

[Anonymous]

lk and other fellow travelers: if poor folks want money from well-to-do taxpayers, the poor folks should be prepared to live by rules set by well-to-do taxpayers.

Such rules would include any school age children getting good grades; no children born out of wedlock; graduating from high school; getting one’s weight down to normal range; no drug use, verified by drug tests.

Historically, banks imposed rules (covenants) when they lent money to businesses. My venture capitalists, via our Board of Directors, impose rules. The Salvation Army and Father Joe require aid recipients to conform to reasonable standards.

Any family that wants welfare — be it food, tuition, or medical care assistance — should be expected to abide by reasonable standards of conduct, too.

Do those things, lk and your fellow Socialists, and Red Staters like me will be open to discussing broad aid to folks. Without such, it is money down the drain, and you can ‘include us out.’

[Anonymous]

lk and other fellow travelers: if poor folks want money from well-to-do taxpayers, the poor folks should be prepared to live by rules set by well-to-do taxpayers.

Such rules would include any school age children getting good grades; no children born out of wedlock; graduating from high school; getting one’s weight down to normal range; no drug use, verified by drug tests.

Historically, banks imposed rules (covenants) when they lent money to businesses. My venture capitalists, via our Board of Directors, impose rules. The Salvation Army and Father Joe require aid recipients to conform to reasonable standards.

Any family that wants welfare — be it food, tuition, or medical care assistance — should be expected to abide by reasonable standards of conduct, too.

Do those things, lk and your fellow Socialists, and Red Staters like me will be open to discussing broad aid to folks. Without such, it is money down the drain, and you can ‘include us out.’

[blahblahblah]

Do those things, lk and your fellow Socialists, and Red Staters like me…

Are there even any socialists in this discussion? Speaking for myself, I’m a die-hard capitalist, unlike many of the Red Staters who work in the defense industry, in government itself, or depend on government contracts for their business. I’m also a realist and I recognize that one economic model cannot be applied to all markets any more than one type of engine is best for every type of vehicle.

[blahblahblah]

Do those things, lk and your fellow Socialists, and Red Staters like me…

Are there even any socialists in this discussion? Speaking for myself, I’m a die-hard capitalist, unlike many of the Red Staters who work in the defense industry, in government itself, or depend on government contracts for their business. I’m also a realist and I recognize that one economic model cannot be applied to all markets any more than one type of engine is best for every type of vehicle.

[Anonymous]

C-, I read folks advocating for universal healthcare. That is, in effect, a transfer payment: from the pockets of those with money to the pockets of those without money.

From the pockets of individuals to the pockets of the broad citizenry = socialism, commonsensically.

[Anonymous]

C-, I read folks advocating for universal healthcare. That is, in effect, a transfer payment: from the pockets of those with money to the pockets of those without money.

From the pockets of individuals to the pockets of the broad citizenry = socialism, commonsensically.

[blahblahblah]

read folks advocating for universal healthcare. That is, in effect, a transfer payment: from the pockets of those with money to the pockets of those without money.

That’s one way to look at it, but I view it as a government granted monopoly not-for-profit insurance service. Similar to Social Security or Medicare. You could even grant it to a private company and give them a 3% profit margin or so. Of course, Social Security and Medicare are broken and doomed, but that is only because the public trust has been violated by congress in both cases. Since the taxes for those services are placed in the general fund, the money can be (and is!) spent on anything from bombs to homeland security contracts. And of course there was the huge Medicare drug benefit giveaway to big pharma.

I guess the problem is much larger than healthcare, now that I think about it. Even if you created this service in the US, the congress would raid the fund to buy more bombs and Coast Guard cutters that don’t float and bridges to nowhere in Alaska. The service would then become “in trouble” and it would be argued that government can’t provide it effectively so it must be privatized. We’d be back to square one.

[blahblahblah]

read folks advocating for universal healthcare. That is, in effect, a transfer payment: from the pockets of those with money to the pockets of those without money.

That’s one way to look at it, but I view it as a government granted monopoly not-for-profit insurance service. Similar to Social Security or Medicare. You could even grant it to a private company and give them a 3% profit margin or so. Of course, Social Security and Medicare are broken and doomed, but that is only because the public trust has been violated by congress in both cases. Since the taxes for those services are placed in the general fund, the money can be (and is!) spent on anything from bombs to homeland security contracts. And of course there was the huge Medicare drug benefit giveaway to big pharma.

I guess the problem is much larger than healthcare, now that I think about it. Even if you created this service in the US, the congress would raid the fund to buy more bombs and Coast Guard cutters that don’t float and bridges to nowhere in Alaska. The service would then become “in trouble” and it would be argued that government can’t provide it effectively so it must be privatized. We’d be back to square one.

[speedingpullet]

jg said:

Any family that wants welfare — be it food, tuition, or medical care assistance — should be expected to abide by reasonable standards of conduct, too.

Wow, sometimes jg, I can’t figure out if you’re just taking the mickey or are just bat$hit crazy… 😉

OK, let’s do a bit of reducto ad absurdam on this…

– What do you mean by ‘reasonable’?

– Who would enforce this’ reasonable’ conduct?

– Who gets to chose what is ‘reasonable’?

– How would you monitor when non-taxpayers conduct drops below ‘reasonable’ (if you could ever come up with a ‘one-size-fits-all’ code of ‘reasonableness’ for the entire population of the country)?

For someone who rails against the all-seeing-eye role of Government already, what you’re suggesting is a whole new tier of beaurocracy on top of the already burdensome level its at now.

Unless, which I believe you might be, you’re suggesting that everyone gives up thier personal morals/ethics and listen only to ordained Ministers/Priests/Pastors in the Christian Church.
In which case, you’re suggesting that we revert back to a system very similar to the politcal/moral power afforded by the Imams, in all those countries that we’re currently at war with….and where we’re currently trying to bring ‘Democracy and Freedom’.

[Author]

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