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NeetaT.
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November 5, 2009 at 10:47 AM #478889November 5, 2009 at 12:10 PM #478073
Allan from Fallbrook
Participant[quote=pri_dk][quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Forget about how endemically corrupt Italy is, or that the Mafia/organized crime effectively run that country. Forget Berlusconi’s shenanigans. Forget the fact that Italy’s intelligence and security apparatus is essentially a wholly owned subsidiary of the CIA.[/quote]
Allan,
You are correct. We should forget about all of the above. Because it is totally irrelevant to the issue.
The only issue here is this: Did these agents break the law? If so, they should be held accountable. A crime committed in a nation that has a corrupt government is no less of a crime.[/quote]
Pri: No disagreement here. My point, using the references about Italy, was that this was a show trial and conducted as same.
We obviously don’t have the time or space to really delve into this, but Italy, like France, Germany, the UK and others (including Poland), have not only supported the rendition policy, but are actively involved with it as well (for instance, there are numerous “black” sites in Poland used for interrogations).
This goes well beyond disingenuous, in that the government of Italy is well aware of their internal policies regarding security and intelligence procedures, and this “trial” was nothing other than a craven attempt to curry favor with the leftist elements.
November 5, 2009 at 12:10 PM #478243Participant[quote=pri_dk][quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Forget about how endemically corrupt Italy is, or that the Mafia/organized crime effectively run that country. Forget Berlusconi’s shenanigans. Forget the fact that Italy’s intelligence and security apparatus is essentially a wholly owned subsidiary of the CIA.[/quote]
Allan,
You are correct. We should forget about all of the above. Because it is totally irrelevant to the issue.
The only issue here is this: Did these agents break the law? If so, they should be held accountable. A crime committed in a nation that has a corrupt government is no less of a crime.[/quote]
Pri: No disagreement here. My point, using the references about Italy, was that this was a show trial and conducted as same.
We obviously don’t have the time or space to really delve into this, but Italy, like France, Germany, the UK and others (including Poland), have not only supported the rendition policy, but are actively involved with it as well (for instance, there are numerous “black” sites in Poland used for interrogations).
This goes well beyond disingenuous, in that the government of Italy is well aware of their internal policies regarding security and intelligence procedures, and this “trial” was nothing other than a craven attempt to curry favor with the leftist elements.
November 5, 2009 at 12:10 PM #478609Participant[quote=pri_dk][quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Forget about how endemically corrupt Italy is, or that the Mafia/organized crime effectively run that country. Forget Berlusconi’s shenanigans. Forget the fact that Italy’s intelligence and security apparatus is essentially a wholly owned subsidiary of the CIA.[/quote]
Allan,
You are correct. We should forget about all of the above. Because it is totally irrelevant to the issue.
The only issue here is this: Did these agents break the law? If so, they should be held accountable. A crime committed in a nation that has a corrupt government is no less of a crime.[/quote]
Pri: No disagreement here. My point, using the references about Italy, was that this was a show trial and conducted as same.
We obviously don’t have the time or space to really delve into this, but Italy, like France, Germany, the UK and others (including Poland), have not only supported the rendition policy, but are actively involved with it as well (for instance, there are numerous “black” sites in Poland used for interrogations).
This goes well beyond disingenuous, in that the government of Italy is well aware of their internal policies regarding security and intelligence procedures, and this “trial” was nothing other than a craven attempt to curry favor with the leftist elements.
November 5, 2009 at 12:10 PM #478689Participant[quote=pri_dk][quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Forget about how endemically corrupt Italy is, or that the Mafia/organized crime effectively run that country. Forget Berlusconi’s shenanigans. Forget the fact that Italy’s intelligence and security apparatus is essentially a wholly owned subsidiary of the CIA.[/quote]
Allan,
You are correct. We should forget about all of the above. Because it is totally irrelevant to the issue.
The only issue here is this: Did these agents break the law? If so, they should be held accountable. A crime committed in a nation that has a corrupt government is no less of a crime.[/quote]
Pri: No disagreement here. My point, using the references about Italy, was that this was a show trial and conducted as same.
We obviously don’t have the time or space to really delve into this, but Italy, like France, Germany, the UK and others (including Poland), have not only supported the rendition policy, but are actively involved with it as well (for instance, there are numerous “black” sites in Poland used for interrogations).
This goes well beyond disingenuous, in that the government of Italy is well aware of their internal policies regarding security and intelligence procedures, and this “trial” was nothing other than a craven attempt to curry favor with the leftist elements.
November 5, 2009 at 12:10 PM #478909Participant[quote=pri_dk][quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Forget about how endemically corrupt Italy is, or that the Mafia/organized crime effectively run that country. Forget Berlusconi’s shenanigans. Forget the fact that Italy’s intelligence and security apparatus is essentially a wholly owned subsidiary of the CIA.[/quote]
Allan,
You are correct. We should forget about all of the above. Because it is totally irrelevant to the issue.
The only issue here is this: Did these agents break the law? If so, they should be held accountable. A crime committed in a nation that has a corrupt government is no less of a crime.[/quote]
Pri: No disagreement here. My point, using the references about Italy, was that this was a show trial and conducted as same.
We obviously don’t have the time or space to really delve into this, but Italy, like France, Germany, the UK and others (including Poland), have not only supported the rendition policy, but are actively involved with it as well (for instance, there are numerous “black” sites in Poland used for interrogations).
This goes well beyond disingenuous, in that the government of Italy is well aware of their internal policies regarding security and intelligence procedures, and this “trial” was nothing other than a craven attempt to curry favor with the leftist elements.
November 5, 2009 at 12:37 PM #478078briansd1
GuestI don’t see how this is disingenuous on the part of the Italians.
The judiciary is independent of the executive and illegal acts condoned by the executive don’t preclude the judiciary from prosecuting crimes.
Prosecutors don’t prosecute all crimes equally. They exercise good judgment in selecting the cases they bring to court.
I’m sure that there was a lot of political pressure on the prosecutor and the judge. The fact that they pressed with the case shows at least some degree of independence.
November 5, 2009 at 12:37 PM #478248GuestI don’t see how this is disingenuous on the part of the Italians.
The judiciary is independent of the executive and illegal acts condoned by the executive don’t preclude the judiciary from prosecuting crimes.
Prosecutors don’t prosecute all crimes equally. They exercise good judgment in selecting the cases they bring to court.
I’m sure that there was a lot of political pressure on the prosecutor and the judge. The fact that they pressed with the case shows at least some degree of independence.
November 5, 2009 at 12:37 PM #478614GuestI don’t see how this is disingenuous on the part of the Italians.
The judiciary is independent of the executive and illegal acts condoned by the executive don’t preclude the judiciary from prosecuting crimes.
Prosecutors don’t prosecute all crimes equally. They exercise good judgment in selecting the cases they bring to court.
I’m sure that there was a lot of political pressure on the prosecutor and the judge. The fact that they pressed with the case shows at least some degree of independence.
November 5, 2009 at 12:37 PM #478694GuestI don’t see how this is disingenuous on the part of the Italians.
The judiciary is independent of the executive and illegal acts condoned by the executive don’t preclude the judiciary from prosecuting crimes.
Prosecutors don’t prosecute all crimes equally. They exercise good judgment in selecting the cases they bring to court.
I’m sure that there was a lot of political pressure on the prosecutor and the judge. The fact that they pressed with the case shows at least some degree of independence.
November 5, 2009 at 12:37 PM #478914GuestI don’t see how this is disingenuous on the part of the Italians.
The judiciary is independent of the executive and illegal acts condoned by the executive don’t preclude the judiciary from prosecuting crimes.
Prosecutors don’t prosecute all crimes equally. They exercise good judgment in selecting the cases they bring to court.
I’m sure that there was a lot of political pressure on the prosecutor and the judge. The fact that they pressed with the case shows at least some degree of independence.
November 5, 2009 at 12:39 PM #478083Anonymous
GuestAllan,
Good points. I don’t know many facts about this but I suspect that your claims about the involvement of other countries, including Italy.
However I am concerned that many in this country are twisting the war on terror into an opportunity to operate above the law. We have declared a war where almost anyone can be categorized an enemy, while at the same time abandoning international law (Geneva Convention, et. al.) All because this war is “different.”
It’s a dangerous situation, and at this point I’m in favor of just about anything that may provide more accountability to those that prosecute this “war.”
November 5, 2009 at 12:39 PM #478253GuestAllan,
Good points. I don’t know many facts about this but I suspect that your claims about the involvement of other countries, including Italy.
However I am concerned that many in this country are twisting the war on terror into an opportunity to operate above the law. We have declared a war where almost anyone can be categorized an enemy, while at the same time abandoning international law (Geneva Convention, et. al.) All because this war is “different.”
It’s a dangerous situation, and at this point I’m in favor of just about anything that may provide more accountability to those that prosecute this “war.”
November 5, 2009 at 12:39 PM #478619GuestAllan,
Good points. I don’t know many facts about this but I suspect that your claims about the involvement of other countries, including Italy.
However I am concerned that many in this country are twisting the war on terror into an opportunity to operate above the law. We have declared a war where almost anyone can be categorized an enemy, while at the same time abandoning international law (Geneva Convention, et. al.) All because this war is “different.”
It’s a dangerous situation, and at this point I’m in favor of just about anything that may provide more accountability to those that prosecute this “war.”
November 5, 2009 at 12:39 PM #478699GuestAllan,
Good points. I don’t know many facts about this but I suspect that your claims about the involvement of other countries, including Italy.
However I am concerned that many in this country are twisting the war on terror into an opportunity to operate above the law. We have declared a war where almost anyone can be categorized an enemy, while at the same time abandoning international law (Geneva Convention, et. al.) All because this war is “different.”
It’s a dangerous situation, and at this point I’m in favor of just about anything that may provide more accountability to those that prosecute this “war.”
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