How hard is it to DIY this plumbing job yourself?

[Coronita]

Assuming I go the “cut the elbows at the 45degrees mark”, how hard is it to remove the remaining elbow from the pipe? A lot of heat, and some light twists using a vise grip..Or are we talking about a lot of elbow grease?

I’ve never tried to break lose a pipe fitting that has been soldered, so I don’t know exactly know how much force I’m expecting…

Also, I don’t know if I have a saw that can cut through that elbow. Hmmm… Time to add to my tool collection?

If I decide to not cut the elbow, would it be easier if I try to remove the regulator first, and once out of the way, I have an elbow with a little pipe on the top, and a valve and an elbow I can remove separately?…Or am I assuming incorrectly that removing the regulator will be easier than cutting the elbows?

[ucodegen]

You guys are going about disassembly the hard way. Take a note of the pressure regulator. It is a coupling type. That means it can be disconnected and removed without de-soldering anything. See the coupling portion on each end of the pressure regulator? It helps in dismantling – so I would recommend replacing it with same type, same manufacturer if possible (which will keep the dimensions the same and would be able to reuse the upper coupling connector and elbow w/out dismantling that). Note that the gate valve is before the pressure regulator – this is to allow easy servicing of the pressure regulator.

Turn off water at the street connection (meter), I tend to drain by opening one of the highest faucets and most of the lowest. Even after draining, you may have quite a bit of water coming out of the line after the regulator (pressure regulators also act like a one way valve). Be prepared – water draining is unavoidable and can be a surprise when a kid or spouse decides to try a faucet upstairs even after you tell them the water is off – it happens.

After removing the pressure regulator, the lower end with the gate valve will be easy to remove (comparatively). Water feed is from the bottom, and you will need to remove water from the lower portion, probably by siphoning. Even with MAPP gas, water in the pipe can make it hard to heat because water can absorb a considerable amount of energy and copper is a great thermal conductor. Just work towards the ends when the regulator is removed. No cutting needed.

Important
If the pressure regulator is still working (check with a gauge – make sure you are measuring after the regulator because some outside/garden lines are fed pre-regulator), you might not want to bother touching it – check for pressure creep with all lines closed. Your regulator is adjustable. If it turns out that your gate valve is the only thing not working right, you may want to consider fixing it. It looks like yours may be the ‘serviceable’ type where you can remove the gate and stem without removing the valve body. The main problem with gate valves is crap getting into the gate channel and preventing it from closing completely. Gate valves do not seal/close with a rubber seal – the only rubber washers are on the stem. Gate valves use a tapered brass ‘gate’ – thereby the name. Closing the valve drives the brass gate in between two tapered brass seats (like a wedge). The second problem occurs when people don’t open them all the way, and water passing through wears down the edge of the gate over time. Gate valves should be all the way open or all the way closed – never ‘between’.

To remove the gate assembly, just open the gate valve at least half way, remove handle, remove packing/seal bolt (nut closest to handle), then loosen at the next nut which is part of the top of the body (there is a seam line that is sometimes hard to see – you’ll see it when loosening). You may need to jockey moving the gate by turning the stem vs turning the removable portion of the body. NOTE: Do all the above after turning off water at meter and draining.

When I re-pressure, I tend to crack several valves located at the high point in the house and then crack open the street/meter feed. I then start closing off the house valves as water starts flowing smoothly. When all house valves are closed, I open the street all the way.

NOTE: MAPP gas is the only way to go with this one. You may be there until eternity arrives with Propane.

Ref on valves: http://pointing.spiraxsarco.com/resources/steam-engineering-tutorials/pipeline-ancillaries/isolation-valves-linear-movement.asp

[Hobie]

Removing the soldered section is very easy. Once the solder is hot enough it liquefies and will very easily slides off with a leather glove or pliers.

Heat the joint only. Slowly start twisting. Done.

Clean the house end pipes as mentioned and always use lots of flux. If you burn it off or don’t use enough it will never seal.

Breaking the joint at the reg unions is a good option. Use a couple of pipe wrenches. A hacksaw will cut copper easily if that is the route you take.

Uco has great advise but I take issue with gate valves. For the $, replace it with a very reliable, tight, fast acting new ball valve.

One last thing: Regulator is directional. enough said.

[no_such_reality]

A lot of good observations above.

How much space do you have between the pipes and wall? Mine has about 6 inches, yours looks really cramped in the picture, like maybe an inch. The pressure regulator looks threaded but does look like there is not enough room to turn to thread.

I’d probably go with spdrun’s repack, otherwise redo the whole thing to make more serviceable.

Note: really glad to see all the great advice on the forums again.

[Coronita]

[quote=no_such_reality]A lot of good observations above.

How much space do you have between the pipes and wall? Mine has about 6 inches, yours looks really cramped in the picture, like maybe an inch. The pressure regulator looks threaded but does look like there is not enough room to turn to thread.

I’d probably go with spdrun’s repack, otherwise redo the whole thing to make more serviceable.

Note: really glad to see all the great advice on the forums again.[/quote]

Yeah, I miss these old forum days. There’s about a 1 inch gap between the wall and the threaded nut on the regulator so I shouldn’t have a clearance problem. The issue is getting it undone. I think getting the regulator off will probably be ok since I can use two crescent wrenches to loosen both nuts.

The valve looks like it’s going to be a PITA. And I was tempted to try to just service the drop gate as ucodegen siggrdted. But then again, I really hate these valves…

For curiosity sake, I wonder if my regulator has already failed so I am going to go buy a gauge to find out.

Thanks everyone for the advice. I really wish we can see more of this sort of thing here on the forums.

So dumb question…..What makes a good MAPP torch versus a crappy one? I am assuming the coupon special at harbor freight would be in the crap category?

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=moneymaker]I put a ball valve in many years ago but used shark bite fittings as I did not want to use torches (oxy acetalene) as that was all I had at the time. had no problems but did have to have the water department replace their valve as it was defective at the street, they put a ball valve in as well after freezing the line with liquid nitrogen, talk about working quickly, they had to finish before the line thawed.[/quote]

Shark bites are good. I use them on first floor condos where there are no individual unit shutoff and the whole building needs to be shut off for servicing.

The shark bites pipes are cheaper than copper, but the fitting are expensive.

I have seen new houses with shark bites only with each application plumbed separately in a hub and spoke fashion

I would use Pex if building a new house.
https://www.google.com/amp/www.familyhandyman.com/plumbing/pex-piping-everything-you-need-to-know/amp

[Coronita]

[quote=FlyerInHi][quote=moneymaker]I put a ball valve in many years ago but used shark bite fittings as I did not want to use torches (oxy acetalene) as that was all I had at the time. had no problems but did have to have the water department replace their valve as it was defective at the street, they put a ball valve in as well after freezing the line with liquid nitrogen, talk about working quickly, they had to finish before the line thawed.[/quote]

Shark bites are good. I use them on first floor condos where there are no individual unit shutoff and the whole building needs to be shut off for servicing.

The shark bites pipes are cheaper than copper, but the fitting are expensive.

I have seen new houses with shark bites only with each application plumbed separately in a hub and spoke fashion

I would use Pex if building a new house.
https://www.google.com/amp/www.familyhandyman.com/plumbing/pex-piping-everything-you-need-to-know/amp%5B/quote%5D

I don’t know if I would use PEX on potable water. I don’t think there has been any studies done if it is safe for drinking….then again, PVC isn’t exactly good either and lots of houses run PVC.

[ucodegen]

[quote=flu]
So dumb question…..What makes a good MAPP torch versus a crappy one? I am assuming the coupon special at harbor freight would be in the crap category?[/quote]

I didn’t see a MAPP torch at harbor freight, only propane. You have to be careful just switch gasses on the same torch. It doesn’t always work. MAPP gas requires more oxygen per molecule. It is a carbon heavy fuel (because of the acetylene in it). The torch needs to be one that creates a ‘swirling’ flame – sometimes called a ‘turbo torch’.

When removing the connection at the regulator, make sure you stabilize the pipe – copper is soft.

[quote=flu]The valve looks like it’s going to be a PITA. And I was tempted to try to just service the drop gate as ucodegen siggrdted. But then again, I really hate these valves…[/quote]
Just trying to give the lowest cost solution. If you start changing connections – de-soldering and re-soldering, you have to make sure pieces line up without putting stress on the connections when you screw in the regulator. Best way would be to do almost all but the last solder connection – bolt in the regulator and snug it at the couplings and then make the last solder connection. You don’t want the distance between the two couplings too long or short for the regulator. When fitting it together, the regulator is the last thing going in, it works like an interlocking puzzle.

[quote=FlyerInHi]Shark bites are good. I use them on first floor condos where there are no individual unit shutoff and the whole building needs to be shut off for servicing. [/quote]
I stay away from shark-bite/PEX, particularly for in-wall and ceiling construction. There are several lawsuits with respect to problems with PEX and the connectors.

https://failures.wikispaces.com/PEX+Plumbing+Failures?responseToken=04cd03e88575ef370dae6f8622409f8bd
http://www.plumbingfittingsettlement.com/FAQ.aspx
https://www.lawyersandsettlements.com/articles/zurn-pex-plumbing/zurn-pex-time-bomb-behind-walls-10673.html
http://gotaclassaction.com/nibco-inc-named-in-class-action-lawsuit-over-cross-linked-polyethylene-plumbing-tubes/
https://www.classaction.org/pex-plumbing-lawsuit

The last thing I want is water ‘getting loose’ in the wall and ceiling spaces. One generally does not discover it until quite a bit of damage is done.

Contractors (some) love the stuff because it assembles very quickly. Just bid as if you are doing copper and the extra hours saved is just additional $$ in the pocket.

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=ucodegen]

Contractors (some) love the stuff because it assembles very quickly. Just bid as if you are doing copper and the extra hours saved is just additional $$ in the pocket.[/quote]

maybe… I’m on the HOA board of an early 1980s condo complex and we spend a lot of money on plumbing. the re-routes are all PEX.

I use shark bite fittings when I cannot wait for the whole building to drain in order to solder copper. I’ve use shop vac to suck water out of pipes, but that means I have to solder quickly. I’m slooowww.

You know, when you have a whole building out of water, the residents are all up in arms and want water restored fast.

[Coronita]

[quote=FlyerInHi][quote=ucodegen]

Contractors (some) love the stuff because it assembles very quickly. Just bid as if you are doing copper and the extra hours saved is just additional $$ in the pocket.[/quote]

maybe… I’m on the HOA board of an early 1980s condo complex and we spend a lot of money on plumbing. the re-routes are all PEX.

I use shark bite fittings when I cannot wait for the whole building to drain in order to solder copper. I’ve use shop vac to suck water out of pipes, but that means I have to solder quickly. I’m slooowww.

You know, when you have a whole building out of water, the residents are all up in arms and want water restored fast.[/quote]

Are we sure PEX is safe for drinking water?

[Coronita]

So here’s a side photo of the valve and regulator. I decided not to try to tackle this today, but to think it out more throughly..

[img_assist|nid=26176|title=more plumbing fun|desc=|link=node|align=left|width=500]

As you can see, the two lock nuts on the regulator has enough clearance and (assuming they aren’t completely frozen), should be allow the regulator to be removed.

The concerning part is the bottom elbows. Yes, there appears to be two of them.

Any change of attack? I think the bottom part of the drywall needs to be removed. It’s probably going to get destroyed anyway with any sort of heat to the pipe…

I’m thinking maybe remove both elbows at the bottom and just have a clean pipe running up from the ground to work with…

I also measured the pressure on my pipes. It looks to be around 80-82 PSI…Ouch…I guess it’s been that way for awhile now…

[moneymaker]

My shark bite fittings are outside and have not had any problems with them since put in (7 years now I think). It was my first time using them so I was a little hesitant at first too, they were a little pricey but considering the time saved it was probably a wash. I added a whole house sediment filter at the time too.

[spdrun]

Sheesh, learn how to use a torch.

[ltsddd]

[quote=flu]Any change of attack? [/quote]

Get a pro to do it bro. Pick your battles wisely.

[no_such_reality]

I’d probably open the wall to take a look what I’ve got for pipe to work with. Maybe it’s cleaner looking in person, but I hate judging pipe work with paint slopped all over it.

At the bottom does it elbow back again (third elbow) into the wall or go into the floor? It looks like it bends back into the wall.

The top elbow looks like a nice clean copper solder. The bottom, just looks funny to me, the pieces look to thick, like some sort of bubble gum job a prior owner did.

Don’t mind me, my home’s previous owner was a general contractor who apparently used whatever remnants to repair around here, if a fitting as four screws holding it, it’ll have three different kinds, a flat head, and two different Phillips head and possibly one of those star drive deck screws. I dread opening up things to find work the prior guy did.

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