Good fact based WSJ article on who pays taxes in America

[moneymaker]

I can’t remember the last time I didn’t pay taxes, so either I am fortunate or I need to hire an accountant. I don’t understand how the rich can pay no taxes, and yet I’m sure it happens.

[ocrenter]

[quote=flu][quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Tax evasion is a crime.

Tax avoidance is a Constitutionally guaranteed right.[/quote]

Yes, and as long as romney followed the rules, I don’t see a problem with it at all.[/quote]

You don’t have a problem that Bain capital as well as other private equity firms spent millions to lobby for carried interest tax break that allow Romney to essentially follow his own rules on taxes?

[ocrenter]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Tax evasion is a crime.

Tax avoidance is a Constitutionally guaranteed right.[/quote]

And successfully lobbying to lower one’s own tax rate is the American Dream.

[briansd1]

[quote=flu]
It’s no different than
[/quote]

False equivalence, flu.

The common person who tries to save a little bit here and there does so to take care of his family; and in the end, he spends all his income and is left with nothing.

The billionaire who pays no taxes is a parasite.

The WSJ article is stupid. Taxes should not be proportional based on population, but is should be proportional based on the share of the economic pie.

If you go dutch to a restaurant, each person does not pay the same. Each person pays according to what he gets. If you get the lobster and wine, you should pay more than the person who only gets a salad and water.

[no_such_reality]

[quote=sdduuuude][quote=flu]1. How about government spending less defense
2. How about government spending less social entitlement benefits programs.
3. How about government start actually make some of the corporations that pay no taxes at all pay taxes, like somewhat reforming the expatriation corporate tax rules.[/quote]

Here, here !

I’d be glad to pay pay a higher portion of the total costs if the costs were about 20% of what they are now and I’m not even one of the “rich” ones.

The discussion of fair share only hides the real problem.[/quote]

That real problem is quite simple. If you take Bill Clinton’s last balanced budget, increase it by inflation and population growth, the budget would be $2.8 Trillion.

We’re spending $3.8 Trillion.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=ocrenter][quote=flu][quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Tax evasion is a crime.

Tax avoidance is a Constitutionally guaranteed right.[/quote]

Yes, and as long as romney followed the rules, I don’t see a problem with it at all.[/quote]

You don’t have a problem that Bain capital as well as other private equity firms spent millions to lobby for carried interest tax break that allow Romney to essentially follow his own rules on taxes?[/quote]

OCR: Oh, hell yeah, I have a problem with that. I have a problem with corporate welfare, too, and agribusiness subsidies and how the Pentagon is now a finishing school for the Military-Industrial Complex.

Like I said earlier: We (meaning us proles who aren’t in the oligarchy) have NO advocates in the professional political class and, yes, Brian, that includes BOTH the Dems and the GOP.

They don’t call the Senate the “Millionaire’s Club” for no reason.

Obama is about “authentically” black as Al Jolson. He’s as much a member of the 1% as Romney, given his background, which includes private prep, the Ivy League and law school. Okay, so he doesn’t have a bajillion dollars like Romney, but, believe you me, his net worth is considerable.

We need sweeping reform and we aren’t likely to get it. And I’d ask why. None of the problems we face as a nation are insoluble, nor are they insurmountable. To me, it looks like Simpson-Bowles came up with some good solutions. Why weren’t they implemented? I’m no expert on securities law, but it seems patently obvious that some seriously shady shit went down on Wall Street. Yet, no prosecutions. Hmmm, odd. We’re sitting idly by, while our government performs targeted assassinations of American citizens, intrudes into every aspect of our lives and blithely conducts wars without so much as a how-do-you-do.

We, as a nation, have been subjected to two generations of outright bullshit from our supposed “leaders” and now have fewer rights, less money and less freedom, while we’re busy fighting each other over stupid shit like gay marriage. And, no, Brian, I don’t mean gay marriage is stupid, I mean it’s a contrived “issue” that is sufficiently divisive to keep our focus off what’s really happening.

End rant.

[briansd1]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook] while we’re busy fighting each other over stupid shit like gay marriage. And, no, Brian, I don’t mean gay marriage is stupid, I mean it’s a contrived “issue” that is sufficiently divisive to keep our focus off what’s really happening.

End rant.[/quote]

Abortion and gay marriage are contrived issues only by those who’ve contrived them.

On abortion, the issue was settled a long time ago but conservatives keep on wanting to reflight a lost flight.

On gay marriage, legalize it and be done with it like other advanced countries in the world. It’s only an issue for the conservative side.

Like I said before, conservatives will cave sooner or later. So might as well give up now so that the country can move forward.

We will continue to have legal abortion. It could be 10 years or 5 decades, but gay marriage will be legal at the Federal level. Mark my words.

With a Democrat in the White House and Democratic nominee to the Supreme Court, we will put those “contrived” issues to rest sooner rather than later. So, Allan, they are not “all the same.” One side is better than the other.

[Coronita]

[quote=ocrenter][quote=flu][quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Tax evasion is a crime.

Tax avoidance is a Constitutionally guaranteed right.[/quote]

Yes, and as long as romney followed the rules, I don’t see a problem with it at all.[/quote]

You don’t have a problem that Bain capital as well as other private equity firms spent millions to lobby for carried interest tax break that allow Romney to essentially follow his own rules on taxes?[/quote]

No, not personally with Romney. Yes, personally with Bain Capital as a corporation, just like I have an issue with General Electric paying to income taxes. Minute distinction.

[ocrenter]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]

OCR: Oh, hell yeah, I have a problem with that. I have a problem with corporate welfare, too, and agribusiness subsidies and how the Pentagon is now a finishing school for the Military-Industrial Complex.

Like I said earlier: We (meaning us proles who aren’t in the oligarchy) have NO advocates in the professional political class and, yes, Brian, that includes BOTH the Dems and the GOP.

They don’t call the Senate the “Millionaire’s Club” for no reason.

Obama is about “authentically” black as Al Jolson. He’s as much a member of the 1% as Romney, given his background, which includes private prep, the Ivy League and law school. Okay, so he doesn’t have a bajillion dollars like Romney, but, believe you me, his net worth is considerable.

We need sweeping reform and we aren’t likely to get it. And I’d ask why. None of the problems we face as a nation are insoluble, nor are they insurmountable. To me, it looks like Simpson-Bowles came up with some good solutions. Why weren’t they implemented? I’m no expert on securities law, but it seems patently obvious that some seriously shady shit went down on Wall Street. Yet, no prosecutions. Hmmm, odd. We’re sitting idly by, while our government performs targeted assassinations of American citizens, intrudes into every aspect of our lives and blithely conducts wars without so much as a how-do-you-do.

We, as a nation, have been subjected to two generations of outright bullshit from our supposed “leaders” and now have fewer rights, less money and less freedom, while we’re busy fighting each other over stupid shit like gay marriage. And, no, Brian, I don’t mean gay marriage is stupid, I mean it’s a contrived “issue” that is sufficiently divisive to keep our focus off what’s really happening.

End rant.[/quote]

Well said Allan. Completely agree. And yes, I had to google Al Jolson. Took me a while but LOL on that one.

I would put abortion in with gay marriage as another contrived issue as well.

Absolutely right about the “proles” having no voice (and yes, had to google that too). And sorry to say, but I would have to put doctors, engineers, and lawyers in this working class group as that is the reality these days. The GOP is completely beholden to the 1%, while the Dems completely beholden to the unions and their welfare base. The end result is the lower class gets more hand outs and tax breaks, while the top 1% and the corporations also end up with more hand outs and tax breaks. The W2 working class bees end up footing the bill for everyone.

To use Brian’s dinner analogy. The guy ordering lobster and wine somehow do not need to pay because somehow making “job creators” pay would make them stop creating jobs. Then you have 50% of the table entitled to their meal. Leaving the middle class to pay for everyone.

[Coronita]

[quote=briansd1]

False equivalence, flu.

The common person who tries to save a little bit here and there does so to take care of his family; and in the end, he spends all his income and is left with nothing.

The billionaire who pays no taxes is a parasite.
[/quote]

Horseshit.
1. Billionaires “paying no taxes” first of all is horseshit. Show me one billionaire that paid no taxes.

2. “Fair share” is subjective.

3. Amount of dodging/cheating is irrelevant. Intent and legality however is relevant.

(a) Shutting off a cash register so not to register sales and registers sales tax is cheating. And folks that willing pay cash to a merchant knowing that the merchant’s intent is to do participating in the cheat and as guilty in supporting tax cheats.

Doesn’t matter what “benefit” it may have for an individual… You’re breaking the law somewhat here.

(b) Attempting to lower one’s assessed values to tricks and games as to what Romney has done is purely legal and no different than anyone else trying to lower his/her tax burden. People who rail against Romney doing this better not have submitted his/her or her own reassessment request and/or tried to lower the assessed value by playing games at closing with the closing cost…Otherwise that’s a huge double standard there and an immediate loss of credibility imho.

The only people that will get hit the hardest are the people on W2’s in upper middle class which will be dragged down. They are the ones that always always pay the largest tax burdens whenever politicians talk about taxing the rich..And it won’t even fix the problems.

[an]

[quote=flu]The only people that will get hit the hardest are the people on W2’s in upper middle class which will be dragged down. They are the ones that always always pay the largest tax burdens whenever politicians talk about taxing the rich..And it won’t even fix the problems.[/quote]
Yep, W2 upper middle class folks will continue to be ignored by both parties. At least the Republicans are ignoring them. The Democrats on the other hand are considering them “wealthy”, lumping them with the multimillionaires. If you’re in this group, better wise up and get out of this group. No one is looking out for you.

[KSMountain]

[quote=flu] …just like I have an issue with General Electric paying to income taxes. Minute distinction.[/quote]
I think the “GE pays no taxes” meme is over done and overly simplistic.

GE was founded in 1892. You think they’ve never paid taxes all that time? Don’t you think the amount they pay varies year by year?

Their 2012 net income according to Wiki will be about $14 billion on revenue of $147 billion. You think they aren’t paying all sorts of taxes of various kinds on that, in many different countries?

As we all know, if your business has a losing year, you will pay less taxes that year. Maybe no income taxes if in aggregate your expenses exceed your income. Of course if you do that year after year you won’t be in business for long.

Here’s a quote, admittedly from a company spokesman:

GE paid an effective global tax rate of 7 percent in 2010, counting money paid “to the IRS and foreign counterparts” in other nations. That rate was particularly low, Williams said, because the company lost $32 billion in its financial business during the global financial crisis.

According to the company release, GE’s effective tax rate jumped to 29 percent in 2011. The company paid $2.9 billion in worldwide corporate income tax in 2011, and another $1 billion in other U.S. taxes that year, the release states.

[briansd1]

flu, it’s not all the same.

There are such things as context and proportionality.

An average Joe who attempts to lower his house assessment is not the same as Romney who can summon the County Assessor over to his lawyer’s office.

As an average joe, try to get anything past the California Coastal Commission. Try to get any permit to tear down and rebuild a house in San Diego. Romey got a sea-wall, the right to quadruple his house, lower assessments, etc… I’m pretty sure his name and power had something to do with all that.

[Coronita]

[quote=briansd1]flu, it’s not all the same.

There are such things as context and proportionality.

An average Joe who attempts to lower his house assessment is not the same as Romney who can summon the County Assessor over to his lawyer’s office.

As an average joe, try to get anything past the California Coastal Commission. Try to get any permit to tear down and rebuild a house in San Diego. Romey got a sea-wall, the right to quadruple his house, lower assessments, etc… I’m pretty sure his name and power had something to do with all that.[/quote]

So, in other words, it’s ok to cheat if you’re a little person, is that what you are saying?

Thanks for clarifying…..It’s your problem, not my problem…Now I definitely understand this progressive way of thinking….Where did I see something similar to this..Oh why yes!

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=briansd1][quote=Allan from Fallbrook] while we’re busy fighting each other over stupid shit like gay marriage. And, no, Brian, I don’t mean gay marriage is stupid, I mean it’s a contrived “issue” that is sufficiently divisive to keep our focus off what’s really happening.

End rant.[/quote]

Abortion and gay marriage are contrived issues only by those who’ve contrived them.

On abortion, the issue was settled a long time ago but conservatives keep on wanting to reflight a lost flight.

On gay marriage, legalize it and be done with it like other advanced countries in the world. It’s only an issue for the conservative side.

Like I said before, conservatives will cave sooner or later. So might as well give up now so that the country can move forward.

We will continue to have legal abortion. It could be 10 years or 5 decades, but gay marriage will be legal at the Federal level. Mark my words.

With a Democrat in the White House and Democratic nominee to the Supreme Court, we will put those “contrived” issues to rest sooner rather than later. So, Allan, they are not “all the same.” One side is better than the other.[/quote]

Brian: Go have a cookie and sit in the corner. The adults are talking.

You have now officially turned your brain off and decided to propagandize yourself into oblivion.

How on earth can you, as a supposedly intelligent, rational human being, ever believe in one side being COMPLETELY RIGHT 100% OF THE TIME and the other side being COMPLETELY WRONG 100% OF THE TIME? Dude. And then you turn and accuse FLU of a false equivalence. Sweet bearded Lord Jesus. None is so blind as he who will not see…

[Author]

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