Good fact based WSJ article on who pays taxes in America

[ctr70]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444246904577571042249868040.html

I don’t know WTF people can constantly say “the rich aren’t paying their share” when 5% of tax payers in the U.S. pay 40% of all the income taxes, the bottom 40% paid 5.9% of all income taxes, and 46% of households didn’t pay ANY income taxes. But a lot of those 46% who paid NO income taxes, have no trouble voting to tax the “rich”. Of course not, they don’t have to pay sh#t, why not? And what’s considered “rich” is such a joke, $200,000 a year with kids in Coastal CA is barely freaking middle class.

You continue to get punished for financial prosperity, hard work & putting your nose to the grindstone… you get to carry the tax burden for the whole county, you don’t get to contribute to a Roth IRA, if you pay your mortgage on time you don’t get any of the goodies the deadbeats get like loan mods, principle reductions, free rent squatting in your house for 3+ years, you don’t get to take the loss on rentals over $150k in AGI, etc…. and it goes on and on an on.

[briansd1]

Here’s a more unbiased view of taxes.

http://www.npr.org/2011/11/16/142353732/how-u-s-tax-policies-increased-economic-inequality

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=briansd1]Here’s a more unbiased view of taxes.

http://www.npr.org/2011/11/16/142353732/how-u-s-tax-policies-increased-economic-inequality%5B/quote%5D

Brian: Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! Um, yeah, Tim Dickinson is quite unbiased. He works out of San Francisco and is well-known for his articles in Rolling Stone Magazine:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Dickinson

Two words to help fix the tax problem: TAX REFORM. Interestingly, neither the Dems nor the GOP wish to discuss this. Why do you think that is, Brian?

[poorgradstudent]

I, for one, am quite jealous of those bottom 40% lucky ducks that don’t pay any federal income taxes. I mean, for one thing, they get to live on less than $35K a year, and you can buy a lot of ramen for that! Just because a lot of them are elderly, disabled and full time students doesn’t mean they shouldn’t pay their fair share, amirite? Let’s not let old people or college kids who don’t pay federal income taxes vote.
While 35K a year is a lot of money, you’re right that it’s hard to support a family on 200k a year! Having to choose between having a maid, sending the kids to dance lessons and having a math tutor is not fair! And god forbid you have to send your snowflake to *public* school.
Sure, the bottom 46% pay less proportionally in payroll taxes than those who cap out. They also pay a much greater percentage of their income in sales taxes, but who cares, right? Same percentage, must be fair. If they were smart they would invest some of that fat cash they are raking in and benefit from low tax rates on capital gains and dividends. It’s not our fault the poor waste all their money on their rent, food and health care. They need to learn to not eat and save.

Seriously though, this is America, we have a progressive tax policy. Greatest nation in the world. If you don’t like it, you can get out.

[Coronita]

[quote=poorgradstudent]

Seriously though, this is America, we have a progressive tax policy. Greatest nation in the world. If you don’t like it, you can get out.[/quote]

Non-argument.
Well, you could also say, if you’re the bottom 40% and can’t afford to live in america, they can get the fvck out too.

In fact, I think that’s more of a reality than the former…After all, the same people that make up the corporate tax rules and tax rules for the elistist rich have their pockets padded by them…

I think most common people are focusing on the wrong problem. Taxing “people” more isn’t going to do didly.

1. How about government spending less defense
2. How about government spending less social entitlement benefits programs.
3. How about government start actually make some of the corporations that pay no taxes at all pay taxes, like somewhat reforming the expatriation corporate tax rules.

Before asking any one “individual” to “pay more of their fair share”, I think everyone else should be asking our government to fix #1-3 first. Until then, the lower 40% of this nation are going to get continuously squeezed into poverty, and the once was upper middle class gets squeezed down into lower runs of the economic tier.” And for everyone else with any remote shred of wealth (albeit small), will do everything they possibly can to shelter, hide, dodge the system. Because it is everyone is in it for themselves game mode now.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=flu]. . .
1. How about government spending less defense
2. How about government spending less social entitlement benefits programs.
3. How about government start actually make some of the corporations that pay no taxes at all pay taxes, like somewhat reforming the expatriation corporate tax rules. . . .[/quote]

All good ideas. Yes, how about it?

[bearishgurl]

[quote=poorgradstudent]I, for one, am quite jealous of those bottom 40% lucky ducks that don’t pay any federal income taxes. I mean, for one thing, they get to live on less than $35K a year, and you can buy a lot of ramen for that! Just because a lot of them are elderly, disabled and full time students doesn’t mean they shouldn’t pay their fair share, amirite? Let’s not let old people or college kids who don’t pay federal income taxes vote.
While 35K a year is a lot of money, you’re right that it’s hard to support a family on 200k a year! Having to choose between having a maid, sending the kids to dance lessons and having a math tutor is not fair! And god forbid you have to send your snowflake to *public* school.
Sure, the bottom 46% pay less proportionally in payroll taxes than those who cap out. They also pay a much greater percentage of their income in sales taxes, but who cares, right? Same percentage, must be fair. If they were smart they would invest some of that fat cash they are raking in and benefit from low tax rates on capital gains and dividends. It’s not our fault the poor waste all their money on their rent, food and health care. They need to learn to not eat and save.

Seriously though, this is America, we have a progressive tax policy. Greatest nation in the world. If you don’t like it, you can get out.[/quote]

Great post, poorgradstudent! Except for one caveat. When I was in my “FICA contribution years,” I had this continual vision where I (and my bretheren) were supporting the weekly salon visits of all these little old ladies who never worked (outside of the home) a day in their lives :={.

Their (inflated) SS benefits (due to collecting on a spouse or fmr spouse’s work record) allowed them this pleasure and also to take the bus to an Indian casino or factory outlet to play with their friends 1-2x per month.

It didn’t seem fair that I couldn’t afford any salon, casino OR factory outlet visits and moreover, did not have the leave from work available to do so.

Such is life … the unfairness of it all … I guess we can all find a reason to complain that we were born in the wrong era :=0

[sdduuuude]

[quote=flu]1. How about government spending less defense
2. How about government spending less social entitlement benefits programs.
3. How about government start actually make some of the corporations that pay no taxes at all pay taxes, like somewhat reforming the expatriation corporate tax rules.[/quote]

Here, here !

I’d be glad to pay pay a higher portion of the total costs if the costs were about 20% of what they are now and I’m not even one of the “rich” ones.

The discussion of fair share only hides the real problem.

[ocrenter]

We can see from the 3rd graph that all group have seen a decline in their tax rate over the last 30 years.

At the same time, the top 5% have seen their share of total income expand from 30% to 40% of the economy.

The most impressive number is what is not included in the article. In which the top 1% saw their total income expand from roughly 10% to 20% of the economy within the past 30 years.

What this really means is that all of the income expansion within the top 5% essentially went to the top 1%. Put in another way, the 99% either seen flat growth in income or had falling income.

How come the WSJ missed this important and crucial piece of information???

Back to the top 1% tax rate, which was included in the article, that average rate fell from 35% down to less than 30%. So while the top 1% increased their share of the total income, their tax rate declined.

Is that right?

The reason you as a top 2-5% earner is feeling p*ssed is because you are falling behind just like everyone else, while the top 1% continue to push their weight around.

[JPJones]

[quote=ocrenter]…

Back to the top 1% tax rate, which was included in the article, that average rate fell from 35% down to less than 30%. So while the top 1% increased their share of the total income, their tax rate declined.

Is that right?

…[/quote]

That’s correct, but it definitely isn’t right.

[poorgradstudent]

[quote=flu]
1. How about government spending less defense
2. How about government spending less social entitlement benefits programs.
3. How about government start actually make some of the corporations that pay no taxes at all pay taxes, like somewhat reforming the expatriation corporate tax rules.[/quote]
These are all great ideas in theory, and would all be challenging to implement.

1. If the government spends less on defense, I would happily see most of those savings go to tax cuts for the rich. It’s a pipe dream, because there is so much pork barrel spending on defense it would take a huge, bipartisan effort that just won’t ever happen in our lifetimes.
2. I hate having all social entitlement programs lumped together. Are we talking welfare? medicaid? medicare? social security? The biggest problem with entitlement spending right now is a demographic one, and there are no easy answers to that. Plus, seniors vote in droves, so politically it’s almost suicidal to piss them off. I’m not sure there is room for huge cuts in entitlements without significant long term social costs.
3. I would love it if we could cut individual taxes while increasing corporate taxes. Good luck with that though; corporations are even better at dodging taxes than rich people are.

[CA renter]

[As the] nation’s richest people often point out, they do pay the lion’s share of taxes in the country: The richest 20% pay 64% of the total taxes. (Lower bar). Of course, that’s because they also make most of the money. (Top bar).

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/what-wall-street-protesters-are-so-angry-about-2011-10?op=1#ixzz22uHp2zml

So what does all this mean in terms of net worth? Well, for starters, it means that the top 1% of Americans own 42% of the financial wealth in this country. The top 5%, meanwhile, own nearly 70%.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/what-wall-street-protesters-are-so-angry-about-2011-10?op=1#ixzz22uHAZfoB

And then there are taxes… It’s a great time to make a boatload of money in America, because taxes on the nation’s highest-earners are close to the lowest they’ve ever been.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/what-wall-street-protesters-are-so-angry-about-2011-10?op=1#ixzz22uHcz0wD

The aggregate tax rate for the top 1% is lower than for the next 9%—and not much higher than it is for pretty much everyone else.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/what-wall-street-protesters-are-so-angry-about-2011-10?op=1#ixzz22uHk0zoe

[Coronita]

[quote=poorgradstudent][quote=flu]
1. How about government spending less defense
2. How about government spending less social entitlement benefits programs.
3. How about government start actually make some of the corporations that pay no taxes at all pay taxes, like somewhat reforming the expatriation corporate tax rules.[/quote]
These are all great ideas in theory, and would all be challenging to implement.

1. If the government spends less on defense, I would happily see most of those savings go to tax cuts for the rich. It’s a pipe dream, because there is so much pork barrel spending on defense it would take a huge, bipartisan effort that just won’t ever happen in our lifetimes.
2. I hate having all social entitlement programs lumped together. Are we talking welfare? medicaid? medicare? social security? The biggest problem with entitlement spending right now is a demographic one, and there are no easy answers to that. Plus, seniors vote in droves, so politically it’s almost suicidal to piss them off. I’m not sure there is room for huge cuts in entitlements without significant long term social costs.
3. I would love it if we could cut individual taxes while increasing corporate taxes. Good luck with that though; corporations are even better at dodging taxes than rich people are.[/quote]

So the correct solution then is just to tax the working upper middle class (which don’t have the tax loopholes) and bring them down to the bottom 40-50% and gloss over the real problem…Um, yet that makes a lot of sense to me.

You wonder why Romney has bank accounts in caymen islands. You think it’s bad Romney is trying to get his home reassessed using high power legal counsel.. It’s because it’s legalized tax dodging. Absolutely nothing wrong with it…

It’s no different than

1. common folks that try to skirt paying more property taxes in magic slight of hands…Like if one buys a new home, and offers to pay the seller’s realtor/closing cost if they in the seller in turn lower the selling price.. All else being equal to the seller, i’m sure a lot of buyers have done that just that to lower their property tax rate (albeit small)…for what? To dodge paying more property taxes.

2. people previously reporting Mello-ruse as a tax deductible item when it wasn’t clear whether that was allowed (well, it is now)..

3. common folks that purchase things online and avoid paying state sales tax

4. common folks that try to undercut the selling price of a used car to avoid paying higher

5. common folks that when buying something from a small shop ask for the “cash only” price, knowing very well the merchant is going to intentional not ring it up and, therefore cheat the state out of sales tax.

Yes sir, the only difference between what Romney has at his disposal and the rest of us, is he has more tools, and the rest of us are just jealous with sour grapes that he does and you don’t. Because I guarantee most (not all, but most people) given the ability to dodge their taxes would.

So…Before anyone else asks for some other individual to pay more taxes, look at yourself in the miror and ask yourself, are you?

Regarding entitlement programs, yes I mean all of it. At least a lot of it should be reformed and self-contributed…

But you know the only real solution to self-entitlement programs that are underfunded or upside down is this..In fact the solution to any high debt problem is this

…Cut off the money supply and force the issue about making hard choices and austerity….

When the bill comes due, there is no money, and things shutdown…Then it won’t matter what the “terms, conditions,etc were”…Everything will be changed…Yes, even pensions. So cut off the money supply, and let’s make some real choices…
So get some popcorn, and watch Greece unravel as a data point. We have a lot to learn from it.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Tax evasion is a crime.

Tax avoidance is a Constitutionally guaranteed right.

[Coronita]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]Tax evasion is a crime.

Tax avoidance is a Constitutionally guaranteed right.[/quote]

Yes, and as long as romney followed the rules, I don’t see a problem with it at all.

[Author]

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