Bhutto assassination: CIA plot?

[Allan from Fallbrook]

XBoxBoy: Fair enough. Let me clarify what I meant. I do NOT believe that Carter and the CIA had a master plan to draw the Soviets into Afghanistan. I DO believe that once the Russians were there, we did our utmost to bleed them white. Having worked with SOF guys who supplied the Muj fighters with Stinger missiles (and gave them the know-how to use them) I know that we were heavily involved in the area and the effort.

Do I think we bailed out after the Russians did? Sadly, yes I do.

I don’t give Carter any credit, because he deserves none. I think Charlie Wilson is a stud, as I believe many of the individual field officers (CIA) and SOF guys were as well. I think the situation was driven by the expedient issues at the time and, once the objective was achieved, we took off.

I get irritated whenever I hear the mantra start about an “unwarranted war”, and the presumption of some perfidious neocon plot to rule the world. In that part of the world, at that time, it was basically a continuation of “The Great Game” started by the British 150 years earlier. We were seeking to head off Soviet influence, maintain an acceptable balance of power, and protect the free flow of oil.

I think Carter did us irreparable harm in both that part of the world, and in dealing with the Soviet threat, specifically the various wars by proxy that the Russians were waging at the time.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

And if my post had a mocking tone, I apologize. I clearly let my irritation get the better of me, and that is wrong.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

And if my post had a mocking tone, I apologize. I clearly let my irritation get the better of me, and that is wrong.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

And if my post had a mocking tone, I apologize. I clearly let my irritation get the better of me, and that is wrong.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

And if my post had a mocking tone, I apologize. I clearly let my irritation get the better of me, and that is wrong.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

And if my post had a mocking tone, I apologize. I clearly let my irritation get the better of me, and that is wrong.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Following is pulled directly from stockstradr's posting: 

What is the Great Dark Secret of history that Americans are too ignorant to know or too proud to discuss?

Read this excerpt from an interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski, President Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser:

Q [Interviewer]: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?

B[Zbigniew Brzezinski]: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam War. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

OK, so what is the Great Dark Secret? THE FACTS 1) Carter, Brzezinski, and others in the administration decided back in July '79 to fund covert CIA involvement in the Afghanistan civil war with the goal to give Russia a Vietnam-like failed war. 2) That conspiracy became wildly "successful" and many historians later concluded it not only gave Russia a Vietnam-like failed war (on a greater scale), but was a pivotal element in the collapse of the entire Soviet Union. 3) Afghanistan was the real victim and "paid" the price to the tune of over ONE MILLION Afghan lives and their country was reduced to rubble, all so that America could give Russia its Vietnam on Afghani soil. 4) America sent countless CIA operatives into Afghanistan during the war, to train Afghanis how to be terrorists against Russians in Afghanistan. America sent millions of dollars in weapons into Afghanistan. What downed the 333 Russian helicopters lost during that war? 

This passage asserts not only did the Carter Administration fund and support a secret war inside Afghanistan, but that the Soviets invaded because of it's existence.  However, Brzezinski is unclear as to whether or not the operations plan existed prior to the Russian invasion.  It would certainly appear to be the case, if the Soviet response was driven by their desire to foil said secret war.

So, which is it?  The timing would seem to indicate we became involved following, as would the phrasing of Brzezinski's letter to President Carter, but the way he describes events contradicts that timing, and make it appear that the Soviets became aware of this secret war and then invaded following.

History tells a different story, especially as regards the Carter Administration's handling of special warfare missions and covert operations.  I mentioned the Desert One debacle because it underscores the point that Carter hamstrung not only our conventional military capabilities, but also gutted our SOF and covert programs as well.  It strains credulity to see his hand behind the anti-Soviet effort in Afghanistan.  

     

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Following is pulled directly from stockstradr's posting: 

What is the Great Dark Secret of history that Americans are too ignorant to know or too proud to discuss?

Read this excerpt from an interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski, President Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser:

Q [Interviewer]: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?

B[Zbigniew Brzezinski]: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam War. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

OK, so what is the Great Dark Secret? THE FACTS 1) Carter, Brzezinski, and others in the administration decided back in July '79 to fund covert CIA involvement in the Afghanistan civil war with the goal to give Russia a Vietnam-like failed war. 2) That conspiracy became wildly "successful" and many historians later concluded it not only gave Russia a Vietnam-like failed war (on a greater scale), but was a pivotal element in the collapse of the entire Soviet Union. 3) Afghanistan was the real victim and "paid" the price to the tune of over ONE MILLION Afghan lives and their country was reduced to rubble, all so that America could give Russia its Vietnam on Afghani soil. 4) America sent countless CIA operatives into Afghanistan during the war, to train Afghanis how to be terrorists against Russians in Afghanistan. America sent millions of dollars in weapons into Afghanistan. What downed the 333 Russian helicopters lost during that war? 

This passage asserts not only did the Carter Administration fund and support a secret war inside Afghanistan, but that the Soviets invaded because of it's existence.  However, Brzezinski is unclear as to whether or not the operations plan existed prior to the Russian invasion.  It would certainly appear to be the case, if the Soviet response was driven by their desire to foil said secret war.

So, which is it?  The timing would seem to indicate we became involved following, as would the phrasing of Brzezinski's letter to President Carter, but the way he describes events contradicts that timing, and make it appear that the Soviets became aware of this secret war and then invaded following.

History tells a different story, especially as regards the Carter Administration's handling of special warfare missions and covert operations.  I mentioned the Desert One debacle because it underscores the point that Carter hamstrung not only our conventional military capabilities, but also gutted our SOF and covert programs as well.  It strains credulity to see his hand behind the anti-Soviet effort in Afghanistan.  

     

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Following is pulled directly from stockstradr's posting: 

What is the Great Dark Secret of history that Americans are too ignorant to know or too proud to discuss?

Read this excerpt from an interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski, President Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser:

Q [Interviewer]: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?

B[Zbigniew Brzezinski]: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam War. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

OK, so what is the Great Dark Secret? THE FACTS 1) Carter, Brzezinski, and others in the administration decided back in July '79 to fund covert CIA involvement in the Afghanistan civil war with the goal to give Russia a Vietnam-like failed war. 2) That conspiracy became wildly "successful" and many historians later concluded it not only gave Russia a Vietnam-like failed war (on a greater scale), but was a pivotal element in the collapse of the entire Soviet Union. 3) Afghanistan was the real victim and "paid" the price to the tune of over ONE MILLION Afghan lives and their country was reduced to rubble, all so that America could give Russia its Vietnam on Afghani soil. 4) America sent countless CIA operatives into Afghanistan during the war, to train Afghanis how to be terrorists against Russians in Afghanistan. America sent millions of dollars in weapons into Afghanistan. What downed the 333 Russian helicopters lost during that war? 

This passage asserts not only did the Carter Administration fund and support a secret war inside Afghanistan, but that the Soviets invaded because of it's existence.  However, Brzezinski is unclear as to whether or not the operations plan existed prior to the Russian invasion.  It would certainly appear to be the case, if the Soviet response was driven by their desire to foil said secret war.

So, which is it?  The timing would seem to indicate we became involved following, as would the phrasing of Brzezinski's letter to President Carter, but the way he describes events contradicts that timing, and make it appear that the Soviets became aware of this secret war and then invaded following.

History tells a different story, especially as regards the Carter Administration's handling of special warfare missions and covert operations.  I mentioned the Desert One debacle because it underscores the point that Carter hamstrung not only our conventional military capabilities, but also gutted our SOF and covert programs as well.  It strains credulity to see his hand behind the anti-Soviet effort in Afghanistan.  

     

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Following is pulled directly from stockstradr's posting: 

What is the Great Dark Secret of history that Americans are too ignorant to know or too proud to discuss?

Read this excerpt from an interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski, President Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser:

Q [Interviewer]: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?

B[Zbigniew Brzezinski]: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam War. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

OK, so what is the Great Dark Secret? THE FACTS 1) Carter, Brzezinski, and others in the administration decided back in July '79 to fund covert CIA involvement in the Afghanistan civil war with the goal to give Russia a Vietnam-like failed war. 2) That conspiracy became wildly "successful" and many historians later concluded it not only gave Russia a Vietnam-like failed war (on a greater scale), but was a pivotal element in the collapse of the entire Soviet Union. 3) Afghanistan was the real victim and "paid" the price to the tune of over ONE MILLION Afghan lives and their country was reduced to rubble, all so that America could give Russia its Vietnam on Afghani soil. 4) America sent countless CIA operatives into Afghanistan during the war, to train Afghanis how to be terrorists against Russians in Afghanistan. America sent millions of dollars in weapons into Afghanistan. What downed the 333 Russian helicopters lost during that war? 

This passage asserts not only did the Carter Administration fund and support a secret war inside Afghanistan, but that the Soviets invaded because of it's existence.  However, Brzezinski is unclear as to whether or not the operations plan existed prior to the Russian invasion.  It would certainly appear to be the case, if the Soviet response was driven by their desire to foil said secret war.

So, which is it?  The timing would seem to indicate we became involved following, as would the phrasing of Brzezinski's letter to President Carter, but the way he describes events contradicts that timing, and make it appear that the Soviets became aware of this secret war and then invaded following.

History tells a different story, especially as regards the Carter Administration's handling of special warfare missions and covert operations.  I mentioned the Desert One debacle because it underscores the point that Carter hamstrung not only our conventional military capabilities, but also gutted our SOF and covert programs as well.  It strains credulity to see his hand behind the anti-Soviet effort in Afghanistan.  

     

[Allan from Fallbrook]

Following is pulled directly from stockstradr's posting: 

What is the Great Dark Secret of history that Americans are too ignorant to know or too proud to discuss?

Read this excerpt from an interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski, President Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser:

Q [Interviewer]: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?

B[Zbigniew Brzezinski]: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam War. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

OK, so what is the Great Dark Secret? THE FACTS 1) Carter, Brzezinski, and others in the administration decided back in July '79 to fund covert CIA involvement in the Afghanistan civil war with the goal to give Russia a Vietnam-like failed war. 2) That conspiracy became wildly "successful" and many historians later concluded it not only gave Russia a Vietnam-like failed war (on a greater scale), but was a pivotal element in the collapse of the entire Soviet Union. 3) Afghanistan was the real victim and "paid" the price to the tune of over ONE MILLION Afghan lives and their country was reduced to rubble, all so that America could give Russia its Vietnam on Afghani soil. 4) America sent countless CIA operatives into Afghanistan during the war, to train Afghanis how to be terrorists against Russians in Afghanistan. America sent millions of dollars in weapons into Afghanistan. What downed the 333 Russian helicopters lost during that war? 

This passage asserts not only did the Carter Administration fund and support a secret war inside Afghanistan, but that the Soviets invaded because of it's existence.  However, Brzezinski is unclear as to whether or not the operations plan existed prior to the Russian invasion.  It would certainly appear to be the case, if the Soviet response was driven by their desire to foil said secret war.

So, which is it?  The timing would seem to indicate we became involved following, as would the phrasing of Brzezinski's letter to President Carter, but the way he describes events contradicts that timing, and make it appear that the Soviets became aware of this secret war and then invaded following.

History tells a different story, especially as regards the Carter Administration's handling of special warfare missions and covert operations.  I mentioned the Desert One debacle because it underscores the point that Carter hamstrung not only our conventional military capabilities, but also gutted our SOF and covert programs as well.  It strains credulity to see his hand behind the anti-Soviet effort in Afghanistan.  

     

[XBoxBoy]

Allan,

Thanks for the clarification. I think we agree as to what happened in Afghanistan. As to Brzezinski, my impression is he’s doing what lots of people do. ie. after the fact he changes details to cast himself in a better light.

From what little I know, the Carter admin was not particularly supportive of the CIA, it’s covert operations, nor funding to the rebels in Afghanistan. But whether they were supportive or not, is kinda moot. The USA did fund the war and that’s fairly easy to document.

My only real point of disagreement then is whether we should have done what we did. I get the sense you supported what we did, and that you feel we probably should have done more. Sorry, but I disagree. However, since I’m not inclined to get into the lengthy debate about the value vs. the cost of covert operations, and the history of such, I’ll just leave it with I disagree, and hope you’ll agree to disagree on whether we should or should not have done what we did. Besides, in the end, that’s totally moot. We did it, and we will probably do it again. No one cares whether I support it or not. Such is life.

XBoxBoy

[XBoxBoy]

Allan,

Thanks for the clarification. I think we agree as to what happened in Afghanistan. As to Brzezinski, my impression is he’s doing what lots of people do. ie. after the fact he changes details to cast himself in a better light.

From what little I know, the Carter admin was not particularly supportive of the CIA, it’s covert operations, nor funding to the rebels in Afghanistan. But whether they were supportive or not, is kinda moot. The USA did fund the war and that’s fairly easy to document.

My only real point of disagreement then is whether we should have done what we did. I get the sense you supported what we did, and that you feel we probably should have done more. Sorry, but I disagree. However, since I’m not inclined to get into the lengthy debate about the value vs. the cost of covert operations, and the history of such, I’ll just leave it with I disagree, and hope you’ll agree to disagree on whether we should or should not have done what we did. Besides, in the end, that’s totally moot. We did it, and we will probably do it again. No one cares whether I support it or not. Such is life.

XBoxBoy

[XBoxBoy]

Allan,

Thanks for the clarification. I think we agree as to what happened in Afghanistan. As to Brzezinski, my impression is he’s doing what lots of people do. ie. after the fact he changes details to cast himself in a better light.

From what little I know, the Carter admin was not particularly supportive of the CIA, it’s covert operations, nor funding to the rebels in Afghanistan. But whether they were supportive or not, is kinda moot. The USA did fund the war and that’s fairly easy to document.

My only real point of disagreement then is whether we should have done what we did. I get the sense you supported what we did, and that you feel we probably should have done more. Sorry, but I disagree. However, since I’m not inclined to get into the lengthy debate about the value vs. the cost of covert operations, and the history of such, I’ll just leave it with I disagree, and hope you’ll agree to disagree on whether we should or should not have done what we did. Besides, in the end, that’s totally moot. We did it, and we will probably do it again. No one cares whether I support it or not. Such is life.

XBoxBoy

[XBoxBoy]

Allan,

Thanks for the clarification. I think we agree as to what happened in Afghanistan. As to Brzezinski, my impression is he’s doing what lots of people do. ie. after the fact he changes details to cast himself in a better light.

From what little I know, the Carter admin was not particularly supportive of the CIA, it’s covert operations, nor funding to the rebels in Afghanistan. But whether they were supportive or not, is kinda moot. The USA did fund the war and that’s fairly easy to document.

My only real point of disagreement then is whether we should have done what we did. I get the sense you supported what we did, and that you feel we probably should have done more. Sorry, but I disagree. However, since I’m not inclined to get into the lengthy debate about the value vs. the cost of covert operations, and the history of such, I’ll just leave it with I disagree, and hope you’ll agree to disagree on whether we should or should not have done what we did. Besides, in the end, that’s totally moot. We did it, and we will probably do it again. No one cares whether I support it or not. Such is life.

XBoxBoy

[Author]

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