Another crash in 2012? Any thoughts?

[sdrealtor]

NO wine glass was involved. Your perspectives are based upon residing in the public sector and rationalizing it all. Sure high standards apply to public safety workers but how big are those liabilities for all the rest of the public sector. When a toll collector on the Golden Gate Bridge gives you the wrong change do they go to jail for theft?

[SD Realtor]

Could it be that the Wall Street guys were also emboldened to run rampant because they also knew that the public sector relied heavily on investments in the crooked game that they were playing? Thus they knew well ahead of time that when the house of cards they built was going to fall, that the feds would have no choice but to bail them out because of these pension investments?

Thus the reality being that the public sector appetite for funding so far exceeded the taxpayer budget base that risky and unrealistic returns were needed on investments just to stay afloat?

Hmmmmmm

[briansd1]

[quote=pri_dk] The only thing that is complicated are your desperate – borderline delusional – rationalizations.
[/quote]

I find CA renter’s rationalization rather one-sided. Her motivations are all about preserving the pay and benefits of the remaining government employee, never mind that that many have been laid-off, and never mind that we’ve had deep cutbacks to services to citizens.

Public service is about serving the citizens, not about fighting for your own benefits.

I would rather see public employees tighten their belts first before cutting services.

Regarding Wall Street and the financial system, you can’t rely on Wall Street during good times and then blame Wall Street when things go bad. We are all part of the same economic system, so we should all share the pain.

[sdrealtor]

plus one

[sdduuuude]

Holy crap. Good post brian.

[Anonymous]

[quote=SD Realtor]Could it be that the Wall Street guys were also emboldened to run rampant because they also knew that the public sector relied heavily on investments in the crooked game that they were playing?[/quote]

Many of the largest managed funds in the world are pension funds. CalPERS is the largest fund in the US.

I’ve said it before here a few times:

Public sector pensions are as Wall Street as Gordon Gekko.

[enron_by_the_sea]

[quote=briansd1]

Regarding Wall Street and the financial system, you can’t rely on Wall Street during good times and then blame Wall Street when things go bad. We are all part of the same economic system, so we should all share the pain.[/quote]

+1

[enron_by_the_sea]

duplicate

[CA renter]

[quote=SD Realtor]You mean I don’t get a pension with my private sector job?

darn….

I am in the wrong sector![/quote]

Many people did indeed get DB pensions in the private sector. They’ve lost so much because they bought into the lies that “unions are bad” and “globalization is good.” This paved the way for the tremendous wealth disparity and hollowing out of our economic base. The anti-union/pro-globalization propaganda destroyed the middle class in America.

Exactly how is this the fault of public sector workers?

[SD Realtor]

So lets take a poll.

How many private sector job holders here on Piggington receive a pension? I have been in the engineering field over 25 years now. Can you show me examples of telecom companies with pension plans for regular salaried engineers? You make it sound like it is a regular thing so I am curious to hear about all these companies.

**************************************************

It is odd to me that you are so far off the mark here. You are making an implication that once upon a time there was a utopia that existed and somehow it was all taken away because of Wall Street. I am not denying wrongdoing buy Wall Street.

So tell me…. when did your utopia exist? When did the state provide all these services, pensions, free higher education for people who were not citizens, welfare and social services, and all of this was 100% supplied by taxpayers.

When was this again?

Nobody needs to be punished. However why can’t we all be on the same playing field? Why can’t all workers public or private simply donate to a 401k?

Is that such a crime?

[CA renter]

[quote=SD Realtor]So lets take a poll.

How many private sector job holders here on Piggington receive a pension? I have been in the engineering field over 25 years now. Can you show me examples of telecom companies with pension plans for regular salaried engineers? You make it sound like it is a regular thing so I am curious to hear about all these companies.

**************************************************

It is odd to me that you are so far off the mark here. You are making an implication that once upon a time there was a utopia that existed and somehow it was all taken away because of Wall Street. I am not denying wrongdoing buy Wall Street.

So tell me…. when did your utopia exist? When did the state provide all these services, pensions, free higher education for people who were not citizens, welfare and social services, and all of this was 100% supplied by taxpayers.

When was this again?

Nobody needs to be punished. However why can’t we all be on the same playing field? Why can’t all workers public or private simply donate to a 401k?

Is that such a crime?[/quote]

I never claimed that the govt paid for the pensions of private sector workers. Private companies did that on their own (often backed by the PBGC).

You should know by now that I do NOT advocate for taxpayer-funded benefits for illegal immigrants. Not because I don’t feel for them, but because it’s not sustainable. Generous social programs are not compatible with porous borders. Since I’m an ardent supporter of social safety nets, socialized medicine, etc., I’m opposed to providing benefits to non-citizens and their children if they aren’t required to pay to enter the system (like many other countries with social safety nets require), especially for those who are not legal residents.

You should also know by now that I do not think Joe Sixpack, the taxpayer, should have to make up for the losses incurred as a result of Wall Street/Fed speculative gambles. I think those in the financial sector — especially those who were very high up in the chain of command during the bubble and knew precisely what they were doing — should lose EVERYTHING (and then some) before taxpayers or public employees take any hits.

The reason I don’t like DC pension plans is because most people are clueless when it comes to finance and would end up destitute if we had to rely 100% on private accounts (no DB pension plans should also mean no Social Security — they are the very same thing, just under different names). We can’t all know everything about every topic. Most of us have very narrow, specialized skills/knowledge. Most of us here on Piggington have an above-average understanding of finance/economics, and even we can’t get it right all of the time. How many here — most of whom have well above-average incomes and financial knowledge — have a fully-funded retirement plan that will comfortably take them through old age without SS or Medicare? If most Piggs can’t do it, how do you expect Joe Sixpack to do it? What do you recommend we do with these people when they are in their 60s, broke, unemployable, and sick? Should we just let them die on the streets? They aren’t going to simply vaporize into thin air because they were unlucky or have a below-average intellect/understanding WRT investing. What do you propose as a solution?

As far as retirement/healthcare benefit trends in the private sector, check out the following charts:

“Retirement Trends in the United States Over the Past Quarter-Century
The vast majority of private-sector working-age Americans who have retirement and
health benefits obtain them through their jobs. Since 1980, significant changes have occurred in
the kind of employment-based retirement plan that workers participate in: Defined benefit (socalled
“traditional” pension) plans have declined (reflecting pressures on defined benefit plan
sponsors to control costs and funding volatility, in addition to increased regulatory burdens),
while defined contribution (401(k)-type) plans have grown. The following figures give a quick
overview of the changing trends in retirement plan coverage among American workers.

http://www.ebri.org/pdf/publications/facts/0607fact.pdf

[CA renter]

[quote=briansd1][quote=pri_dk] The only thing that is complicated are your desperate – borderline delusional – rationalizations.
[/quote]

I find CA renter’s rationalization rather one-sided. Her motivations are all about preserving the pay and benefits of the remaining government employee, never mind that that many have been laid-off, and never mind that we’ve had deep cutbacks to services to citizens.

Public service is about serving the citizens, not about fighting for your own benefits.

I would rather see public employees tighten their belts first before cutting services.

Regarding Wall Street and the financial system, you can’t rely on Wall Street during good times and then blame Wall Street when things go bad. We are all part of the same economic system, so we should all share the pain.[/quote]

How many times do I have to explain that public sector workers already have taken cuts in pay and/or benefits? It’s been going on for many years already. Just one example is the number of public employees who get retiree healthcare. They started dismantling that in the 90s. Since the recession, everyone I know in the public sector has taken cuts in pay and/or benefits. Nobody that I know of has received a net raise in years.

The question isn’t whether or not they should take a hit. The question is who should take a hit before they do so that the hits to workers are minimized (hint: it’s not taxpayers).

[Anonymous]

Yes, start by seizing all the assets of everyone on Wall Street. (Ignore the fact that more than 99.999% of them have broken no laws.)

Let’s start with Rich T. – he’s one of them investment guys, right? I hear he makes good money trading and hedging and all that fancy stuff that causes booms and busts. Hell, the bubble didn’t even put a dent in his income – just look at that chart!

Of course, now that there’s no Wall Street, there’s no place for CalPERS or CalSTRS to put their money, so there’s no growth which means the shortfalls are now gonna be ten times bigger.

And since the public-sector employees have already taken a cut it wouldn’t be right to take any more from them, so we’ll have to go to Wall Street…oh shit we just took all the Wall Street money but still need lots more – so where we gonna get the money to pay Park Ranger Smith her $70K a year for life? (after all, she just turned 50 – you don’t expect her to still have to work the entry kiosk at Anza Borrego, do you?)

(hint: it’s taxpayers).

[moneymaker]

The chance of the market crashing in 2012 is 5% less than the chance of the big one happening here in California. You can take it with a grain of salt but I’m trying to prepare for both.I’ve got my RV, now as long as the crack isn’t more than 3 feet I figure I should be able to jump it over to the other side. Anyone know what BAC closed @ today?

[Anonymous]

CAR,

Before going any further with the “get the money from Wall Street” argument, please provide a short list of names of people who should “lose everything and then some.”

Along with their names, give an estimate of their net worth.

I’ll bet you a fireman’s pension that you that you can’t come up with a list of people that “deserve to lose everything” whose combined net worth equals even half of the public-sector pension shortfalls in the US.

In other words, “Wall Street” doesn’t have enough money to “give back” even if you took every single cent of it.

But please do try – but no fudging!

This can help you get started:

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/54/400list08_The-400-Richest-Americans_Rank.html

You may have to click a few times before you find any evil Wall Street types.

(BTW: It seems that many of those awful “one-percenters” are computer types – do you use any of their products?)

I look forward to you demonstrating your “above average” knowledge of economics and finance.

[Author]

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