[ucodegen]

And shutting down discussion? We’re still talking. Stop your whining. You chose your words.

I said ‘attempts’. Whether it is successful or not depends upon the personality of the person being targeted.

But if you think that children, bearing no responsibility as to the situation they find themselves in, are less worthy than other children simply because of the legal status of their parents, then all three (arrogance, sense of superiority and entitlement) apply.

You still have not answered my question as to Juan and Jose. Is it right to demand that Juan Legal sacrifice some of the quality of the education to his kids so that Jose Illegal can get the same quality education?

My position has nothing to do with arrogance, sense of superiority and entitlement. It is arrogant and displays a sense of entitlement to be illegally within a country and to expect to be served with all of the ‘entitlements’ that a legal citizen pays for, while at the same time, paying for none if it.

If they lead to logical conclusions, don’t complain when those conclusions are exposed.

So far, it looks like your conclusions are being exposed as being weakly supported or just plain wrong.

Here are some things to ponder:
In Mexico, if you are in the country illegally, you are imprisoned in a Mexican jail. After you have served your term, you are deported.
In Mexico, if you have a health problem and are not a citizen, you have to pay cash up front or the hospital will not even see you. This is even true if you are critically injured.

[ucodegen]

And shutting down discussion? We’re still talking. Stop your whining. You chose your words.

I said ‘attempts’. Whether it is successful or not depends upon the personality of the person being targeted.

But if you think that children, bearing no responsibility as to the situation they find themselves in, are less worthy than other children simply because of the legal status of their parents, then all three (arrogance, sense of superiority and entitlement) apply.

You still have not answered my question as to Juan and Jose. Is it right to demand that Juan Legal sacrifice some of the quality of the education to his kids so that Jose Illegal can get the same quality education?

My position has nothing to do with arrogance, sense of superiority and entitlement. It is arrogant and displays a sense of entitlement to be illegally within a country and to expect to be served with all of the ‘entitlements’ that a legal citizen pays for, while at the same time, paying for none if it.

If they lead to logical conclusions, don’t complain when those conclusions are exposed.

So far, it looks like your conclusions are being exposed as being weakly supported or just plain wrong.

Here are some things to ponder:
In Mexico, if you are in the country illegally, you are imprisoned in a Mexican jail. After you have served your term, you are deported.
In Mexico, if you have a health problem and are not a citizen, you have to pay cash up front or the hospital will not even see you. This is even true if you are critically injured.

[ucodegen]

And shutting down discussion? We’re still talking. Stop your whining. You chose your words.

I said ‘attempts’. Whether it is successful or not depends upon the personality of the person being targeted.

But if you think that children, bearing no responsibility as to the situation they find themselves in, are less worthy than other children simply because of the legal status of their parents, then all three (arrogance, sense of superiority and entitlement) apply.

You still have not answered my question as to Juan and Jose. Is it right to demand that Juan Legal sacrifice some of the quality of the education to his kids so that Jose Illegal can get the same quality education?

My position has nothing to do with arrogance, sense of superiority and entitlement. It is arrogant and displays a sense of entitlement to be illegally within a country and to expect to be served with all of the ‘entitlements’ that a legal citizen pays for, while at the same time, paying for none if it.

If they lead to logical conclusions, don’t complain when those conclusions are exposed.

So far, it looks like your conclusions are being exposed as being weakly supported or just plain wrong.

Here are some things to ponder:
In Mexico, if you are in the country illegally, you are imprisoned in a Mexican jail. After you have served your term, you are deported.
In Mexico, if you have a health problem and are not a citizen, you have to pay cash up front or the hospital will not even see you. This is even true if you are critically injured.

[ucodegen]

This reminds me of a few years ago when I was in El Cajon there was a young kid,hispanic who spoke spanish who was using a nail gun during “construction” of one of those apt-to-condo things. Well he was mindlessly nailing the plywood with the gun, just trying to get it stuck back together, it was hilarious and sad at the same time. I wonder how many pipes or wires he must have hit?

Nailgun in the hands of someone inexperienced? That scares the sh*t out of me. It is not called a Nailgun for the heck of it. It can easily put a 16d nail through someones skull, eyes or other body parts.
I’ve seen the same type of thing. I put myself through college doing construction and had the opportunity to ‘inherit’ the journeyman carpenter’s business at 18 (I could have quit college and took up the business). I passed on it. I saw the writing on the wall. I put a lot of the blame on ‘beancounters’ with no experience in the business. The ‘beancounters’ would compare the hourly rate and use that for sole determination, ignoring rework, quality and production rates.

I have also seen the ‘rework’ of these guys. Case in point, a recently purchased new house had damage to the bathtub (probably a hammer dropping on it). Part of the purchase agreement was for the tub to be replaced. Because tubs have an outer raised lip that fits under the tile, the tub has to be ‘cut’ out of the wall. The person who cut out the tub did the cut in one pass.. through the tile, creteboard/cement backing board, moisture barrier, OSB/Green-rock. This creates the problem where the seam between the replaced tile and existing tile is not supported and will flex, breaking the grout and allowing water all the way into the wall. The cuts are supposed to be ‘staggered’ and the cut behind the OSB/Green-rock needs to be ‘crippled’.

Your posts are spot-on. Don’t let the emotional and personal attacks bother you. It simply means they don’t have a valid, logical argument.

Thanks.. I don’t let them bother me.. but I do address them directly and call the attacks for what they are.

BTW, I’d much prefer paying $3.00 per head of lettuce than $.50, if it meant the worker who picked it was legal and earning a livable wage and good benefits; but that’s just me.

I will never fall for the argument that cheaper produce (and we really don’t **know** that, do we?)

Interesting that you mention this. Lettuce is largely picked mechanically, as are beets, potatoes, celery, etc. If you have the book “The Way Things Work”, Simon and Schuster publisher; vol 1 page 434 is a lightweight description of how a beet harvester works. A lettuce harvester is similar except it doesn’t have to pick up the root and effectively the top of the ‘beet’ is the lettuce head in the device. I got the series for my 8th Christmas birthday.

Apples, Oranges, Avocados, Strawberries, etc are picked manually. I wouldn’t be surprised if Strawberries can be picked mechanically since the plant can be sacrificed at picking time.

[ucodegen]

This reminds me of a few years ago when I was in El Cajon there was a young kid,hispanic who spoke spanish who was using a nail gun during “construction” of one of those apt-to-condo things. Well he was mindlessly nailing the plywood with the gun, just trying to get it stuck back together, it was hilarious and sad at the same time. I wonder how many pipes or wires he must have hit?

Nailgun in the hands of someone inexperienced? That scares the sh*t out of me. It is not called a Nailgun for the heck of it. It can easily put a 16d nail through someones skull, eyes or other body parts.
I’ve seen the same type of thing. I put myself through college doing construction and had the opportunity to ‘inherit’ the journeyman carpenter’s business at 18 (I could have quit college and took up the business). I passed on it. I saw the writing on the wall. I put a lot of the blame on ‘beancounters’ with no experience in the business. The ‘beancounters’ would compare the hourly rate and use that for sole determination, ignoring rework, quality and production rates.

I have also seen the ‘rework’ of these guys. Case in point, a recently purchased new house had damage to the bathtub (probably a hammer dropping on it). Part of the purchase agreement was for the tub to be replaced. Because tubs have an outer raised lip that fits under the tile, the tub has to be ‘cut’ out of the wall. The person who cut out the tub did the cut in one pass.. through the tile, creteboard/cement backing board, moisture barrier, OSB/Green-rock. This creates the problem where the seam between the replaced tile and existing tile is not supported and will flex, breaking the grout and allowing water all the way into the wall. The cuts are supposed to be ‘staggered’ and the cut behind the OSB/Green-rock needs to be ‘crippled’.

Your posts are spot-on. Don’t let the emotional and personal attacks bother you. It simply means they don’t have a valid, logical argument.

Thanks.. I don’t let them bother me.. but I do address them directly and call the attacks for what they are.

BTW, I’d much prefer paying $3.00 per head of lettuce than $.50, if it meant the worker who picked it was legal and earning a livable wage and good benefits; but that’s just me.

I will never fall for the argument that cheaper produce (and we really don’t **know** that, do we?)

Interesting that you mention this. Lettuce is largely picked mechanically, as are beets, potatoes, celery, etc. If you have the book “The Way Things Work”, Simon and Schuster publisher; vol 1 page 434 is a lightweight description of how a beet harvester works. A lettuce harvester is similar except it doesn’t have to pick up the root and effectively the top of the ‘beet’ is the lettuce head in the device. I got the series for my 8th Christmas birthday.

Apples, Oranges, Avocados, Strawberries, etc are picked manually. I wouldn’t be surprised if Strawberries can be picked mechanically since the plant can be sacrificed at picking time.

[ucodegen]

This reminds me of a few years ago when I was in El Cajon there was a young kid,hispanic who spoke spanish who was using a nail gun during “construction” of one of those apt-to-condo things. Well he was mindlessly nailing the plywood with the gun, just trying to get it stuck back together, it was hilarious and sad at the same time. I wonder how many pipes or wires he must have hit?

Nailgun in the hands of someone inexperienced? That scares the sh*t out of me. It is not called a Nailgun for the heck of it. It can easily put a 16d nail through someones skull, eyes or other body parts.
I’ve seen the same type of thing. I put myself through college doing construction and had the opportunity to ‘inherit’ the journeyman carpenter’s business at 18 (I could have quit college and took up the business). I passed on it. I saw the writing on the wall. I put a lot of the blame on ‘beancounters’ with no experience in the business. The ‘beancounters’ would compare the hourly rate and use that for sole determination, ignoring rework, quality and production rates.

I have also seen the ‘rework’ of these guys. Case in point, a recently purchased new house had damage to the bathtub (probably a hammer dropping on it). Part of the purchase agreement was for the tub to be replaced. Because tubs have an outer raised lip that fits under the tile, the tub has to be ‘cut’ out of the wall. The person who cut out the tub did the cut in one pass.. through the tile, creteboard/cement backing board, moisture barrier, OSB/Green-rock. This creates the problem where the seam between the replaced tile and existing tile is not supported and will flex, breaking the grout and allowing water all the way into the wall. The cuts are supposed to be ‘staggered’ and the cut behind the OSB/Green-rock needs to be ‘crippled’.

Your posts are spot-on. Don’t let the emotional and personal attacks bother you. It simply means they don’t have a valid, logical argument.

Thanks.. I don’t let them bother me.. but I do address them directly and call the attacks for what they are.

BTW, I’d much prefer paying $3.00 per head of lettuce than $.50, if it meant the worker who picked it was legal and earning a livable wage and good benefits; but that’s just me.

I will never fall for the argument that cheaper produce (and we really don’t **know** that, do we?)

Interesting that you mention this. Lettuce is largely picked mechanically, as are beets, potatoes, celery, etc. If you have the book “The Way Things Work”, Simon and Schuster publisher; vol 1 page 434 is a lightweight description of how a beet harvester works. A lettuce harvester is similar except it doesn’t have to pick up the root and effectively the top of the ‘beet’ is the lettuce head in the device. I got the series for my 8th Christmas birthday.

Apples, Oranges, Avocados, Strawberries, etc are picked manually. I wouldn’t be surprised if Strawberries can be picked mechanically since the plant can be sacrificed at picking time.

[ucodegen]

This reminds me of a few years ago when I was in El Cajon there was a young kid,hispanic who spoke spanish who was using a nail gun during “construction” of one of those apt-to-condo things. Well he was mindlessly nailing the plywood with the gun, just trying to get it stuck back together, it was hilarious and sad at the same time. I wonder how many pipes or wires he must have hit?

Nailgun in the hands of someone inexperienced? That scares the sh*t out of me. It is not called a Nailgun for the heck of it. It can easily put a 16d nail through someones skull, eyes or other body parts.
I’ve seen the same type of thing. I put myself through college doing construction and had the opportunity to ‘inherit’ the journeyman carpenter’s business at 18 (I could have quit college and took up the business). I passed on it. I saw the writing on the wall. I put a lot of the blame on ‘beancounters’ with no experience in the business. The ‘beancounters’ would compare the hourly rate and use that for sole determination, ignoring rework, quality and production rates.

I have also seen the ‘rework’ of these guys. Case in point, a recently purchased new house had damage to the bathtub (probably a hammer dropping on it). Part of the purchase agreement was for the tub to be replaced. Because tubs have an outer raised lip that fits under the tile, the tub has to be ‘cut’ out of the wall. The person who cut out the tub did the cut in one pass.. through the tile, creteboard/cement backing board, moisture barrier, OSB/Green-rock. This creates the problem where the seam between the replaced tile and existing tile is not supported and will flex, breaking the grout and allowing water all the way into the wall. The cuts are supposed to be ‘staggered’ and the cut behind the OSB/Green-rock needs to be ‘crippled’.

Your posts are spot-on. Don’t let the emotional and personal attacks bother you. It simply means they don’t have a valid, logical argument.

Thanks.. I don’t let them bother me.. but I do address them directly and call the attacks for what they are.

BTW, I’d much prefer paying $3.00 per head of lettuce than $.50, if it meant the worker who picked it was legal and earning a livable wage and good benefits; but that’s just me.

I will never fall for the argument that cheaper produce (and we really don’t **know** that, do we?)

Interesting that you mention this. Lettuce is largely picked mechanically, as are beets, potatoes, celery, etc. If you have the book “The Way Things Work”, Simon and Schuster publisher; vol 1 page 434 is a lightweight description of how a beet harvester works. A lettuce harvester is similar except it doesn’t have to pick up the root and effectively the top of the ‘beet’ is the lettuce head in the device. I got the series for my 8th Christmas birthday.

Apples, Oranges, Avocados, Strawberries, etc are picked manually. I wouldn’t be surprised if Strawberries can be picked mechanically since the plant can be sacrificed at picking time.

[ucodegen]

This reminds me of a few years ago when I was in El Cajon there was a young kid,hispanic who spoke spanish who was using a nail gun during “construction” of one of those apt-to-condo things. Well he was mindlessly nailing the plywood with the gun, just trying to get it stuck back together, it was hilarious and sad at the same time. I wonder how many pipes or wires he must have hit?

Nailgun in the hands of someone inexperienced? That scares the sh*t out of me. It is not called a Nailgun for the heck of it. It can easily put a 16d nail through someones skull, eyes or other body parts.
I’ve seen the same type of thing. I put myself through college doing construction and had the opportunity to ‘inherit’ the journeyman carpenter’s business at 18 (I could have quit college and took up the business). I passed on it. I saw the writing on the wall. I put a lot of the blame on ‘beancounters’ with no experience in the business. The ‘beancounters’ would compare the hourly rate and use that for sole determination, ignoring rework, quality and production rates.

I have also seen the ‘rework’ of these guys. Case in point, a recently purchased new house had damage to the bathtub (probably a hammer dropping on it). Part of the purchase agreement was for the tub to be replaced. Because tubs have an outer raised lip that fits under the tile, the tub has to be ‘cut’ out of the wall. The person who cut out the tub did the cut in one pass.. through the tile, creteboard/cement backing board, moisture barrier, OSB/Green-rock. This creates the problem where the seam between the replaced tile and existing tile is not supported and will flex, breaking the grout and allowing water all the way into the wall. The cuts are supposed to be ‘staggered’ and the cut behind the OSB/Green-rock needs to be ‘crippled’.

Your posts are spot-on. Don’t let the emotional and personal attacks bother you. It simply means they don’t have a valid, logical argument.

Thanks.. I don’t let them bother me.. but I do address them directly and call the attacks for what they are.

BTW, I’d much prefer paying $3.00 per head of lettuce than $.50, if it meant the worker who picked it was legal and earning a livable wage and good benefits; but that’s just me.

I will never fall for the argument that cheaper produce (and we really don’t **know** that, do we?)

Interesting that you mention this. Lettuce is largely picked mechanically, as are beets, potatoes, celery, etc. If you have the book “The Way Things Work”, Simon and Schuster publisher; vol 1 page 434 is a lightweight description of how a beet harvester works. A lettuce harvester is similar except it doesn’t have to pick up the root and effectively the top of the ‘beet’ is the lettuce head in the device. I got the series for my 8th Christmas birthday.

Apples, Oranges, Avocados, Strawberries, etc are picked manually. I wouldn’t be surprised if Strawberries can be picked mechanically since the plant can be sacrificed at picking time.

[ucodegen]

, I am simply dumbfounded by your sense of superiority, arrogance and entitlement. Hopefully I misunderstand you.

Ah, another personal attack. Lets try dealing with the facts instead of using emotionally charged words and phrases in an attempt to tilt the discussion.. followed by a ‘naw, you couldn’t be that bad a person, I must be misunderstanding you’ type of phrase.

In your previous post, what was the point of even bringing up ‘racists screed’? Emotionally charged words, yes.. and it attempts to shut down discussion by trying to associate my position with that of a racist (something commonly viewed untenable). Thereby in that mechanism, it is also ‘name calling’ through association.

The argument that undocumented aliens are a huge drain on the system has long been debunked. In some counties and states their contributions are less than associated costs. In others they are more.

No it hasn’t been debunked. The supposed ‘debunk’ was through a straw man argument. The taxes that the illegal would owe on income would flow back to the state through sales taxes. What exposes the straw man is that the U.S. operates as an income tax not a VAT tax system. If it were VAT, we would see sales taxes of 15% and higher. The attempted ‘debunkers’ closed off the argument to the effect that the drop in agricultural costs and resulting drop in food prices more than offsets any cost to the U.S. and that most people in the U.S. don’t want those type of jobs anyway. This attempted diversion ignores the simple fact that introduction of the illegals to the labor pool depresses the lower wage range at a cost to the lower and lower middle classes and that some people actually would take that job.

As previously mentioned by at least one other poster, payment of social security and medicare taxes by those who will never receive any benefits is a huge gain for the system.

Red Herring. Answer me this: How can they pay into the system without a Social Security Number (legal citizen) or Taxpayer ID Number(green card). There is not mechanism for the social security system to accept such money without either associated IDs.. which an illegal does not have. There is also no mechanism to collect income taxes without either Social Security ID or Taxpayer ID.

On education, if I understand you to be saying that you believe that children of citizens are more worthy of an education than those of non-citizens,

Yes.

solely based upon where their parents were born,

No. Remember, many citizens are legal immigrants. Heck, unless you are American Indian, we all are immigrants or descended from immigrants. Lets make it easier for you. Lets change Joe to Juan in the above example. Juan Legal (from Mexico) took the legal path to citizenship; including the tests, waiting period, not being a felon etc. Jose is still Jose Illegal. Would it be right to force Juan to sacrifice some of the quality in his kids education to help improve the education quality of Jose Illegal’s kids? even considering that Jose could have taken the legal path to citizenship like Juan Legal?

[ucodegen]

, I am simply dumbfounded by your sense of superiority, arrogance and entitlement. Hopefully I misunderstand you.

Ah, another personal attack. Lets try dealing with the facts instead of using emotionally charged words and phrases in an attempt to tilt the discussion.. followed by a ‘naw, you couldn’t be that bad a person, I must be misunderstanding you’ type of phrase.

In your previous post, what was the point of even bringing up ‘racists screed’? Emotionally charged words, yes.. and it attempts to shut down discussion by trying to associate my position with that of a racist (something commonly viewed untenable). Thereby in that mechanism, it is also ‘name calling’ through association.

The argument that undocumented aliens are a huge drain on the system has long been debunked. In some counties and states their contributions are less than associated costs. In others they are more.

No it hasn’t been debunked. The supposed ‘debunk’ was through a straw man argument. The taxes that the illegal would owe on income would flow back to the state through sales taxes. What exposes the straw man is that the U.S. operates as an income tax not a VAT tax system. If it were VAT, we would see sales taxes of 15% and higher. The attempted ‘debunkers’ closed off the argument to the effect that the drop in agricultural costs and resulting drop in food prices more than offsets any cost to the U.S. and that most people in the U.S. don’t want those type of jobs anyway. This attempted diversion ignores the simple fact that introduction of the illegals to the labor pool depresses the lower wage range at a cost to the lower and lower middle classes and that some people actually would take that job.

As previously mentioned by at least one other poster, payment of social security and medicare taxes by those who will never receive any benefits is a huge gain for the system.

Red Herring. Answer me this: How can they pay into the system without a Social Security Number (legal citizen) or Taxpayer ID Number(green card). There is not mechanism for the social security system to accept such money without either associated IDs.. which an illegal does not have. There is also no mechanism to collect income taxes without either Social Security ID or Taxpayer ID.

On education, if I understand you to be saying that you believe that children of citizens are more worthy of an education than those of non-citizens,

Yes.

solely based upon where their parents were born,

No. Remember, many citizens are legal immigrants. Heck, unless you are American Indian, we all are immigrants or descended from immigrants. Lets make it easier for you. Lets change Joe to Juan in the above example. Juan Legal (from Mexico) took the legal path to citizenship; including the tests, waiting period, not being a felon etc. Jose is still Jose Illegal. Would it be right to force Juan to sacrifice some of the quality in his kids education to help improve the education quality of Jose Illegal’s kids? even considering that Jose could have taken the legal path to citizenship like Juan Legal?

[ucodegen]

, I am simply dumbfounded by your sense of superiority, arrogance and entitlement. Hopefully I misunderstand you.

Ah, another personal attack. Lets try dealing with the facts instead of using emotionally charged words and phrases in an attempt to tilt the discussion.. followed by a ‘naw, you couldn’t be that bad a person, I must be misunderstanding you’ type of phrase.

In your previous post, what was the point of even bringing up ‘racists screed’? Emotionally charged words, yes.. and it attempts to shut down discussion by trying to associate my position with that of a racist (something commonly viewed untenable). Thereby in that mechanism, it is also ‘name calling’ through association.

The argument that undocumented aliens are a huge drain on the system has long been debunked. In some counties and states their contributions are less than associated costs. In others they are more.

No it hasn’t been debunked. The supposed ‘debunk’ was through a straw man argument. The taxes that the illegal would owe on income would flow back to the state through sales taxes. What exposes the straw man is that the U.S. operates as an income tax not a VAT tax system. If it were VAT, we would see sales taxes of 15% and higher. The attempted ‘debunkers’ closed off the argument to the effect that the drop in agricultural costs and resulting drop in food prices more than offsets any cost to the U.S. and that most people in the U.S. don’t want those type of jobs anyway. This attempted diversion ignores the simple fact that introduction of the illegals to the labor pool depresses the lower wage range at a cost to the lower and lower middle classes and that some people actually would take that job.

As previously mentioned by at least one other poster, payment of social security and medicare taxes by those who will never receive any benefits is a huge gain for the system.

Red Herring. Answer me this: How can they pay into the system without a Social Security Number (legal citizen) or Taxpayer ID Number(green card). There is not mechanism for the social security system to accept such money without either associated IDs.. which an illegal does not have. There is also no mechanism to collect income taxes without either Social Security ID or Taxpayer ID.

On education, if I understand you to be saying that you believe that children of citizens are more worthy of an education than those of non-citizens,

Yes.

solely based upon where their parents were born,

No. Remember, many citizens are legal immigrants. Heck, unless you are American Indian, we all are immigrants or descended from immigrants. Lets make it easier for you. Lets change Joe to Juan in the above example. Juan Legal (from Mexico) took the legal path to citizenship; including the tests, waiting period, not being a felon etc. Jose is still Jose Illegal. Would it be right to force Juan to sacrifice some of the quality in his kids education to help improve the education quality of Jose Illegal’s kids? even considering that Jose could have taken the legal path to citizenship like Juan Legal?

[ucodegen]

, I am simply dumbfounded by your sense of superiority, arrogance and entitlement. Hopefully I misunderstand you.

Ah, another personal attack. Lets try dealing with the facts instead of using emotionally charged words and phrases in an attempt to tilt the discussion.. followed by a ‘naw, you couldn’t be that bad a person, I must be misunderstanding you’ type of phrase.

In your previous post, what was the point of even bringing up ‘racists screed’? Emotionally charged words, yes.. and it attempts to shut down discussion by trying to associate my position with that of a racist (something commonly viewed untenable). Thereby in that mechanism, it is also ‘name calling’ through association.

The argument that undocumented aliens are a huge drain on the system has long been debunked. In some counties and states their contributions are less than associated costs. In others they are more.

No it hasn’t been debunked. The supposed ‘debunk’ was through a straw man argument. The taxes that the illegal would owe on income would flow back to the state through sales taxes. What exposes the straw man is that the U.S. operates as an income tax not a VAT tax system. If it were VAT, we would see sales taxes of 15% and higher. The attempted ‘debunkers’ closed off the argument to the effect that the drop in agricultural costs and resulting drop in food prices more than offsets any cost to the U.S. and that most people in the U.S. don’t want those type of jobs anyway. This attempted diversion ignores the simple fact that introduction of the illegals to the labor pool depresses the lower wage range at a cost to the lower and lower middle classes and that some people actually would take that job.

As previously mentioned by at least one other poster, payment of social security and medicare taxes by those who will never receive any benefits is a huge gain for the system.

Red Herring. Answer me this: How can they pay into the system without a Social Security Number (legal citizen) or Taxpayer ID Number(green card). There is not mechanism for the social security system to accept such money without either associated IDs.. which an illegal does not have. There is also no mechanism to collect income taxes without either Social Security ID or Taxpayer ID.

On education, if I understand you to be saying that you believe that children of citizens are more worthy of an education than those of non-citizens,

Yes.

solely based upon where their parents were born,

No. Remember, many citizens are legal immigrants. Heck, unless you are American Indian, we all are immigrants or descended from immigrants. Lets make it easier for you. Lets change Joe to Juan in the above example. Juan Legal (from Mexico) took the legal path to citizenship; including the tests, waiting period, not being a felon etc. Jose is still Jose Illegal. Would it be right to force Juan to sacrifice some of the quality in his kids education to help improve the education quality of Jose Illegal’s kids? even considering that Jose could have taken the legal path to citizenship like Juan Legal?

[ucodegen]

, I am simply dumbfounded by your sense of superiority, arrogance and entitlement. Hopefully I misunderstand you.

Ah, another personal attack. Lets try dealing with the facts instead of using emotionally charged words and phrases in an attempt to tilt the discussion.. followed by a ‘naw, you couldn’t be that bad a person, I must be misunderstanding you’ type of phrase.

In your previous post, what was the point of even bringing up ‘racists screed’? Emotionally charged words, yes.. and it attempts to shut down discussion by trying to associate my position with that of a racist (something commonly viewed untenable). Thereby in that mechanism, it is also ‘name calling’ through association.

The argument that undocumented aliens are a huge drain on the system has long been debunked. In some counties and states their contributions are less than associated costs. In others they are more.

No it hasn’t been debunked. The supposed ‘debunk’ was through a straw man argument. The taxes that the illegal would owe on income would flow back to the state through sales taxes. What exposes the straw man is that the U.S. operates as an income tax not a VAT tax system. If it were VAT, we would see sales taxes of 15% and higher. The attempted ‘debunkers’ closed off the argument to the effect that the drop in agricultural costs and resulting drop in food prices more than offsets any cost to the U.S. and that most people in the U.S. don’t want those type of jobs anyway. This attempted diversion ignores the simple fact that introduction of the illegals to the labor pool depresses the lower wage range at a cost to the lower and lower middle classes and that some people actually would take that job.

As previously mentioned by at least one other poster, payment of social security and medicare taxes by those who will never receive any benefits is a huge gain for the system.

Red Herring. Answer me this: How can they pay into the system without a Social Security Number (legal citizen) or Taxpayer ID Number(green card). There is not mechanism for the social security system to accept such money without either associated IDs.. which an illegal does not have. There is also no mechanism to collect income taxes without either Social Security ID or Taxpayer ID.

On education, if I understand you to be saying that you believe that children of citizens are more worthy of an education than those of non-citizens,

Yes.

solely based upon where their parents were born,

No. Remember, many citizens are legal immigrants. Heck, unless you are American Indian, we all are immigrants or descended from immigrants. Lets make it easier for you. Lets change Joe to Juan in the above example. Juan Legal (from Mexico) took the legal path to citizenship; including the tests, waiting period, not being a felon etc. Jose is still Jose Illegal. Would it be right to force Juan to sacrifice some of the quality in his kids education to help improve the education quality of Jose Illegal’s kids? even considering that Jose could have taken the legal path to citizenship like Juan Legal?

[ucodegen]

On the first point, no, it wasn’t your point. It was mine. You started out claiming it was just the 6.2%, not 7.65%. If we’re comparing how much money Joe and Jose have to live on, the employer’s share is incidental.

Actually it was mine.. take a look at the statements where I said it was to ‘each’ in response to the person claiming only 4% tax. True, I initially left out the 1.45%. That was because I was checking what it was for. As for the employers amount being incidental, its a yes and no. It is part of what drives employers to hire and illegal at the same wage as a legal. Employers can actually hire an illegal and pay 7.65% more and come out even compared to a citizen.

No need to even address the rest of your long debunked racist screed. But please answer me this. Do you really think that Jose’s 8 year old son really deserves less of an education than Joe’s son simply because of where his parents were born?

When logic fails, resort to name calling (ie racist screed). If you really knew me, you would know that this comment is so far off that it is laughable.
As for the issues of education, YES! I don’t like it but I do understand that when a culture is allowed to ‘offload’ its costs onto another.. it will. The support of Jose’s son potentially denies money to someone who took the legal path. The funds are finite. One of my parents was a teacher in the LA City School District. She saw the costs of this activity and the resulting problems. If Jose was legal, he would be paying income tax which would be, in part, covering the costs for schooling. To me, it is not an issue of race. It is an issue of illegal vs legal. In the last amnesty w/ respect to citizen, many illegals didn’t petition to become citizens for a simple monetary reason. If they were a citizen; they would have to pay income taxes(illegals just get deported, a citizen would have to pay back taxes on undeclared income), it would be easier to track them if they skipped on a loan, it would be harder to skip on judgment(its hard enough to extradite a non Mexican citizen from Mexico. Imagine how hard it is to extradite a Mexican from Mexico).. besides, they are already getting many services for free. Why add costs and risks by becoming a citizen?

My personal belief is that there should be some form of ‘work visa’, with adjustments to taxes (ie. no social security taxes, but possibly a reduced Medicaid tax). I also think that the citizen by birth location needs to be removed. It creates too much of a problem with Anchor babies (sometimes the mother returns back to Mexico with the baby, and is able to draw on US welfare in support of her new dual citizen child – both Mexican because parents are, and U.S. by birth location). I have seen the opposite side of the US birth policy. The nightmare that comes from children of US citizens born abroad (read military and military contractors). Trying to get them cert. as a US citizen is a real pain (DNA tests sometimes required). This doesn’t even cover issues like ability to be President and whether they can hold a clearance.

Why take the effort on getting your country back under the control of the citizens when all you have to do is go north? The Mexican government is exporting its problems north instead of dealing with them, and their citizens are heading north instead of dealing with their government.

[ucodegen]

On the first point, no, it wasn’t your point. It was mine. You started out claiming it was just the 6.2%, not 7.65%. If we’re comparing how much money Joe and Jose have to live on, the employer’s share is incidental.

Actually it was mine.. take a look at the statements where I said it was to ‘each’ in response to the person claiming only 4% tax. True, I initially left out the 1.45%. That was because I was checking what it was for. As for the employers amount being incidental, its a yes and no. It is part of what drives employers to hire and illegal at the same wage as a legal. Employers can actually hire an illegal and pay 7.65% more and come out even compared to a citizen.

No need to even address the rest of your long debunked racist screed. But please answer me this. Do you really think that Jose’s 8 year old son really deserves less of an education than Joe’s son simply because of where his parents were born?

When logic fails, resort to name calling (ie racist screed). If you really knew me, you would know that this comment is so far off that it is laughable.
As for the issues of education, YES! I don’t like it but I do understand that when a culture is allowed to ‘offload’ its costs onto another.. it will. The support of Jose’s son potentially denies money to someone who took the legal path. The funds are finite. One of my parents was a teacher in the LA City School District. She saw the costs of this activity and the resulting problems. If Jose was legal, he would be paying income tax which would be, in part, covering the costs for schooling. To me, it is not an issue of race. It is an issue of illegal vs legal. In the last amnesty w/ respect to citizen, many illegals didn’t petition to become citizens for a simple monetary reason. If they were a citizen; they would have to pay income taxes(illegals just get deported, a citizen would have to pay back taxes on undeclared income), it would be easier to track them if they skipped on a loan, it would be harder to skip on judgment(its hard enough to extradite a non Mexican citizen from Mexico. Imagine how hard it is to extradite a Mexican from Mexico).. besides, they are already getting many services for free. Why add costs and risks by becoming a citizen?

My personal belief is that there should be some form of ‘work visa’, with adjustments to taxes (ie. no social security taxes, but possibly a reduced Medicaid tax). I also think that the citizen by birth location needs to be removed. It creates too much of a problem with Anchor babies (sometimes the mother returns back to Mexico with the baby, and is able to draw on US welfare in support of her new dual citizen child – both Mexican because parents are, and U.S. by birth location). I have seen the opposite side of the US birth policy. The nightmare that comes from children of US citizens born abroad (read military and military contractors). Trying to get them cert. as a US citizen is a real pain (DNA tests sometimes required). This doesn’t even cover issues like ability to be President and whether they can hold a clearance.

Why take the effort on getting your country back under the control of the citizens when all you have to do is go north? The Mexican government is exporting its problems north instead of dealing with them, and their citizens are heading north instead of dealing with their government.

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