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UCGal
ParticipantI’ve been following several EV’s that might hit the market soon.
There’s the Zap X
http://www.zapworld.com/zap-x-crossoverAnd the Zap Alias
http://www.zapworld.com/electric-vehicles/electric-cars/zap-alias
(the price on this one is interesting.The Fisker Karma that someone else mentioned.
http://www.fiskerautomotive.com/The non-vaporware Tesla. (But you need to be wealthy to afford it.)
http://www.teslamotors.com/Toyota is still talking about a plug in prius – but it’s date seems to keep moving out.
I have a hybrid, but at some point in the next several years we’ll need to replace my husbands old truck with something that will fit a family of 4. We’re hoping to get a plug in hybrid or full blown EV.
ParticipantI’ve been following several EV’s that might hit the market soon.
There’s the Zap X
http://www.zapworld.com/zap-x-crossoverAnd the Zap Alias
http://www.zapworld.com/electric-vehicles/electric-cars/zap-alias
(the price on this one is interesting.The Fisker Karma that someone else mentioned.
http://www.fiskerautomotive.com/The non-vaporware Tesla. (But you need to be wealthy to afford it.)
http://www.teslamotors.com/Toyota is still talking about a plug in prius – but it’s date seems to keep moving out.
I have a hybrid, but at some point in the next several years we’ll need to replace my husbands old truck with something that will fit a family of 4. We’re hoping to get a plug in hybrid or full blown EV.
ParticipantBy your argument, two cops, nurse, teacher, firefighters will be consider upper class since they’re making 2x more than the median income. What kind of world are you living in, where you basic civil servants are considered not middle class?
If the couple who are cops/teachers/firefighters etc earn $250k, then yes, IMO, they no longer qualify as middle class. But with the exception of nursing (where there is currently a large market demand, driving wages up) those fields would make it hard to earn that much.
From https://apps.sandiego.gov/pjaol/currjob/control?view=OpenJobListing&job_category_cd=Safety+Srv
Police Officer II maxes out at just under $73k.
A firefighter I makes $45k
A firefighter helo pilot makes $82k
The highest paid teacher in San Diego Unified makes $80k.
(http://www.sandi.net/personnel/pdf/SalaryScheds/teachers.pdf)I go back to the last paragraph of the original post in this thread. The statement is that $250k is middle class. My argument that seems to be missed, is that 250k is not middle class.
And for the record, I’m not underpaid – I think I’ve said several times that I feel fortunate to make a good living. Which is why I look at my salary as an engineer, and my husbands salary as an architect, to put is in UPPER middle class – if not bordering on wealthy by national standards and San Diego standards. And we’re far below the $250k.
What has been said about debt is an interesting point. We were fortunate enough to buy houses (not in San Diego) when we were younger and single. When we married, merged, and moved back to my hometown, we sold our houses and had a nice bit of equity to put down. It was also just before the bubble (2003).
Hypothetical.
Family A makes $200k/year.
Family B makes $200k/year.
Family A and Family B both own identical models in the same development. But Family A bought pre-bubble, and Family B bought at the peak. Who’s richer?Obviously, family B has more debt. But it comes down to choices, fate, timing, etc. But they both have the same income.
ParticipantBy your argument, two cops, nurse, teacher, firefighters will be consider upper class since they’re making 2x more than the median income. What kind of world are you living in, where you basic civil servants are considered not middle class?
If the couple who are cops/teachers/firefighters etc earn $250k, then yes, IMO, they no longer qualify as middle class. But with the exception of nursing (where there is currently a large market demand, driving wages up) those fields would make it hard to earn that much.
From https://apps.sandiego.gov/pjaol/currjob/control?view=OpenJobListing&job_category_cd=Safety+Srv
Police Officer II maxes out at just under $73k.
A firefighter I makes $45k
A firefighter helo pilot makes $82k
The highest paid teacher in San Diego Unified makes $80k.
(http://www.sandi.net/personnel/pdf/SalaryScheds/teachers.pdf)I go back to the last paragraph of the original post in this thread. The statement is that $250k is middle class. My argument that seems to be missed, is that 250k is not middle class.
And for the record, I’m not underpaid – I think I’ve said several times that I feel fortunate to make a good living. Which is why I look at my salary as an engineer, and my husbands salary as an architect, to put is in UPPER middle class – if not bordering on wealthy by national standards and San Diego standards. And we’re far below the $250k.
What has been said about debt is an interesting point. We were fortunate enough to buy houses (not in San Diego) when we were younger and single. When we married, merged, and moved back to my hometown, we sold our houses and had a nice bit of equity to put down. It was also just before the bubble (2003).
Hypothetical.
Family A makes $200k/year.
Family B makes $200k/year.
Family A and Family B both own identical models in the same development. But Family A bought pre-bubble, and Family B bought at the peak. Who’s richer?Obviously, family B has more debt. But it comes down to choices, fate, timing, etc. But they both have the same income.
ParticipantBy your argument, two cops, nurse, teacher, firefighters will be consider upper class since they’re making 2x more than the median income. What kind of world are you living in, where you basic civil servants are considered not middle class?
If the couple who are cops/teachers/firefighters etc earn $250k, then yes, IMO, they no longer qualify as middle class. But with the exception of nursing (where there is currently a large market demand, driving wages up) those fields would make it hard to earn that much.
From https://apps.sandiego.gov/pjaol/currjob/control?view=OpenJobListing&job_category_cd=Safety+Srv
Police Officer II maxes out at just under $73k.
A firefighter I makes $45k
A firefighter helo pilot makes $82k
The highest paid teacher in San Diego Unified makes $80k.
(http://www.sandi.net/personnel/pdf/SalaryScheds/teachers.pdf)I go back to the last paragraph of the original post in this thread. The statement is that $250k is middle class. My argument that seems to be missed, is that 250k is not middle class.
And for the record, I’m not underpaid – I think I’ve said several times that I feel fortunate to make a good living. Which is why I look at my salary as an engineer, and my husbands salary as an architect, to put is in UPPER middle class – if not bordering on wealthy by national standards and San Diego standards. And we’re far below the $250k.
What has been said about debt is an interesting point. We were fortunate enough to buy houses (not in San Diego) when we were younger and single. When we married, merged, and moved back to my hometown, we sold our houses and had a nice bit of equity to put down. It was also just before the bubble (2003).
Hypothetical.
Family A makes $200k/year.
Family B makes $200k/year.
Family A and Family B both own identical models in the same development. But Family A bought pre-bubble, and Family B bought at the peak. Who’s richer?Obviously, family B has more debt. But it comes down to choices, fate, timing, etc. But they both have the same income.
ParticipantBy your argument, two cops, nurse, teacher, firefighters will be consider upper class since they’re making 2x more than the median income. What kind of world are you living in, where you basic civil servants are considered not middle class?
If the couple who are cops/teachers/firefighters etc earn $250k, then yes, IMO, they no longer qualify as middle class. But with the exception of nursing (where there is currently a large market demand, driving wages up) those fields would make it hard to earn that much.
From https://apps.sandiego.gov/pjaol/currjob/control?view=OpenJobListing&job_category_cd=Safety+Srv
Police Officer II maxes out at just under $73k.
A firefighter I makes $45k
A firefighter helo pilot makes $82k
The highest paid teacher in San Diego Unified makes $80k.
(http://www.sandi.net/personnel/pdf/SalaryScheds/teachers.pdf)I go back to the last paragraph of the original post in this thread. The statement is that $250k is middle class. My argument that seems to be missed, is that 250k is not middle class.
And for the record, I’m not underpaid – I think I’ve said several times that I feel fortunate to make a good living. Which is why I look at my salary as an engineer, and my husbands salary as an architect, to put is in UPPER middle class – if not bordering on wealthy by national standards and San Diego standards. And we’re far below the $250k.
What has been said about debt is an interesting point. We were fortunate enough to buy houses (not in San Diego) when we were younger and single. When we married, merged, and moved back to my hometown, we sold our houses and had a nice bit of equity to put down. It was also just before the bubble (2003).
Hypothetical.
Family A makes $200k/year.
Family B makes $200k/year.
Family A and Family B both own identical models in the same development. But Family A bought pre-bubble, and Family B bought at the peak. Who’s richer?Obviously, family B has more debt. But it comes down to choices, fate, timing, etc. But they both have the same income.
ParticipantBy your argument, two cops, nurse, teacher, firefighters will be consider upper class since they’re making 2x more than the median income. What kind of world are you living in, where you basic civil servants are considered not middle class?
If the couple who are cops/teachers/firefighters etc earn $250k, then yes, IMO, they no longer qualify as middle class. But with the exception of nursing (where there is currently a large market demand, driving wages up) those fields would make it hard to earn that much.
From https://apps.sandiego.gov/pjaol/currjob/control?view=OpenJobListing&job_category_cd=Safety+Srv
Police Officer II maxes out at just under $73k.
A firefighter I makes $45k
A firefighter helo pilot makes $82k
The highest paid teacher in San Diego Unified makes $80k.
(http://www.sandi.net/personnel/pdf/SalaryScheds/teachers.pdf)I go back to the last paragraph of the original post in this thread. The statement is that $250k is middle class. My argument that seems to be missed, is that 250k is not middle class.
And for the record, I’m not underpaid – I think I’ve said several times that I feel fortunate to make a good living. Which is why I look at my salary as an engineer, and my husbands salary as an architect, to put is in UPPER middle class – if not bordering on wealthy by national standards and San Diego standards. And we’re far below the $250k.
What has been said about debt is an interesting point. We were fortunate enough to buy houses (not in San Diego) when we were younger and single. When we married, merged, and moved back to my hometown, we sold our houses and had a nice bit of equity to put down. It was also just before the bubble (2003).
Hypothetical.
Family A makes $200k/year.
Family B makes $200k/year.
Family A and Family B both own identical models in the same development. But Family A bought pre-bubble, and Family B bought at the peak. Who’s richer?Obviously, family B has more debt. But it comes down to choices, fate, timing, etc. But they both have the same income.
ParticipantAN –
But you are denying them the incentive to work harder. If a 2 nurses work 3 extra shifts, they can easily make a combine of about $250k. These people who you considered middle class profession are not financially middle by your definition, because they work 2x as hard as their peers.I’m not sure where you get that I’m denying ANYONE the incentive to work hard to get more income.
And for the record – I’ve been known to work LOTS of UNPAID extra hours to get a product out or meet a deadline. I guess by your standards I’m an idiot because there’s no financial gain.
My employer rewards the higher cost of living here in San Diego by paying us on the exact same payscale as they pay folks in the midwest. (They used to have a higher payscale in SoCal – but did away with that a few years ago. We’ve been “adjusted” to the new lower scale by very low annual salary increases) It’s my choice to stay with this employer. I bear full responsibility. As an engineer, I make a comfortable income and can live within my means.
My employer also has a phrase they like to toss out when they announce less than generous merit increases… “It’s not the cost of living – it’s the cost of labor.” Translation – there’s another sucker ready to work for less, so we don’t have to pay you what it costs you to liver here.
Cost of living does not factor in to whether you are in a top income bracket or closer to median income. Raw data dictates it. I’m sure you’ve seen that standard bell curve type figures for salaries. It’s hard to justify calling someone on the far right of the curve as typical of the peak of the peak (middle) of the curve.
My issue is that folks making VERY good money like to kid themselves they’re “middle class” – when you look at the median income – it doesn’t make sense.
Here’s another bit of data for you. In San Diego County, for 2006 the median income was $36,081, it was $67,935 for married filing jointly.
http://www.ftb.ca.gov/aboutftb/press/2008/08_23attach.pdf
$250k is NOT middle class. It’s 3.6 times greater the median income for a couple filing jointly. Even in expensive San Diego it’s not middle class. No matter how much it costs to live here.
ParticipantAN –
But you are denying them the incentive to work harder. If a 2 nurses work 3 extra shifts, they can easily make a combine of about $250k. These people who you considered middle class profession are not financially middle by your definition, because they work 2x as hard as their peers.I’m not sure where you get that I’m denying ANYONE the incentive to work hard to get more income.
And for the record – I’ve been known to work LOTS of UNPAID extra hours to get a product out or meet a deadline. I guess by your standards I’m an idiot because there’s no financial gain.
My employer rewards the higher cost of living here in San Diego by paying us on the exact same payscale as they pay folks in the midwest. (They used to have a higher payscale in SoCal – but did away with that a few years ago. We’ve been “adjusted” to the new lower scale by very low annual salary increases) It’s my choice to stay with this employer. I bear full responsibility. As an engineer, I make a comfortable income and can live within my means.
My employer also has a phrase they like to toss out when they announce less than generous merit increases… “It’s not the cost of living – it’s the cost of labor.” Translation – there’s another sucker ready to work for less, so we don’t have to pay you what it costs you to liver here.
Cost of living does not factor in to whether you are in a top income bracket or closer to median income. Raw data dictates it. I’m sure you’ve seen that standard bell curve type figures for salaries. It’s hard to justify calling someone on the far right of the curve as typical of the peak of the peak (middle) of the curve.
My issue is that folks making VERY good money like to kid themselves they’re “middle class” – when you look at the median income – it doesn’t make sense.
Here’s another bit of data for you. In San Diego County, for 2006 the median income was $36,081, it was $67,935 for married filing jointly.
http://www.ftb.ca.gov/aboutftb/press/2008/08_23attach.pdf
$250k is NOT middle class. It’s 3.6 times greater the median income for a couple filing jointly. Even in expensive San Diego it’s not middle class. No matter how much it costs to live here.
ParticipantAN –
But you are denying them the incentive to work harder. If a 2 nurses work 3 extra shifts, they can easily make a combine of about $250k. These people who you considered middle class profession are not financially middle by your definition, because they work 2x as hard as their peers.I’m not sure where you get that I’m denying ANYONE the incentive to work hard to get more income.
And for the record – I’ve been known to work LOTS of UNPAID extra hours to get a product out or meet a deadline. I guess by your standards I’m an idiot because there’s no financial gain.
My employer rewards the higher cost of living here in San Diego by paying us on the exact same payscale as they pay folks in the midwest. (They used to have a higher payscale in SoCal – but did away with that a few years ago. We’ve been “adjusted” to the new lower scale by very low annual salary increases) It’s my choice to stay with this employer. I bear full responsibility. As an engineer, I make a comfortable income and can live within my means.
My employer also has a phrase they like to toss out when they announce less than generous merit increases… “It’s not the cost of living – it’s the cost of labor.” Translation – there’s another sucker ready to work for less, so we don’t have to pay you what it costs you to liver here.
Cost of living does not factor in to whether you are in a top income bracket or closer to median income. Raw data dictates it. I’m sure you’ve seen that standard bell curve type figures for salaries. It’s hard to justify calling someone on the far right of the curve as typical of the peak of the peak (middle) of the curve.
My issue is that folks making VERY good money like to kid themselves they’re “middle class” – when you look at the median income – it doesn’t make sense.
Here’s another bit of data for you. In San Diego County, for 2006 the median income was $36,081, it was $67,935 for married filing jointly.
http://www.ftb.ca.gov/aboutftb/press/2008/08_23attach.pdf
$250k is NOT middle class. It’s 3.6 times greater the median income for a couple filing jointly. Even in expensive San Diego it’s not middle class. No matter how much it costs to live here.
ParticipantAN –
But you are denying them the incentive to work harder. If a 2 nurses work 3 extra shifts, they can easily make a combine of about $250k. These people who you considered middle class profession are not financially middle by your definition, because they work 2x as hard as their peers.I’m not sure where you get that I’m denying ANYONE the incentive to work hard to get more income.
And for the record – I’ve been known to work LOTS of UNPAID extra hours to get a product out or meet a deadline. I guess by your standards I’m an idiot because there’s no financial gain.
My employer rewards the higher cost of living here in San Diego by paying us on the exact same payscale as they pay folks in the midwest. (They used to have a higher payscale in SoCal – but did away with that a few years ago. We’ve been “adjusted” to the new lower scale by very low annual salary increases) It’s my choice to stay with this employer. I bear full responsibility. As an engineer, I make a comfortable income and can live within my means.
My employer also has a phrase they like to toss out when they announce less than generous merit increases… “It’s not the cost of living – it’s the cost of labor.” Translation – there’s another sucker ready to work for less, so we don’t have to pay you what it costs you to liver here.
Cost of living does not factor in to whether you are in a top income bracket or closer to median income. Raw data dictates it. I’m sure you’ve seen that standard bell curve type figures for salaries. It’s hard to justify calling someone on the far right of the curve as typical of the peak of the peak (middle) of the curve.
My issue is that folks making VERY good money like to kid themselves they’re “middle class” – when you look at the median income – it doesn’t make sense.
Here’s another bit of data for you. In San Diego County, for 2006 the median income was $36,081, it was $67,935 for married filing jointly.
http://www.ftb.ca.gov/aboutftb/press/2008/08_23attach.pdf
$250k is NOT middle class. It’s 3.6 times greater the median income for a couple filing jointly. Even in expensive San Diego it’s not middle class. No matter how much it costs to live here.
ParticipantAN –
But you are denying them the incentive to work harder. If a 2 nurses work 3 extra shifts, they can easily make a combine of about $250k. These people who you considered middle class profession are not financially middle by your definition, because they work 2x as hard as their peers.I’m not sure where you get that I’m denying ANYONE the incentive to work hard to get more income.
And for the record – I’ve been known to work LOTS of UNPAID extra hours to get a product out or meet a deadline. I guess by your standards I’m an idiot because there’s no financial gain.
My employer rewards the higher cost of living here in San Diego by paying us on the exact same payscale as they pay folks in the midwest. (They used to have a higher payscale in SoCal – but did away with that a few years ago. We’ve been “adjusted” to the new lower scale by very low annual salary increases) It’s my choice to stay with this employer. I bear full responsibility. As an engineer, I make a comfortable income and can live within my means.
My employer also has a phrase they like to toss out when they announce less than generous merit increases… “It’s not the cost of living – it’s the cost of labor.” Translation – there’s another sucker ready to work for less, so we don’t have to pay you what it costs you to liver here.
Cost of living does not factor in to whether you are in a top income bracket or closer to median income. Raw data dictates it. I’m sure you’ve seen that standard bell curve type figures for salaries. It’s hard to justify calling someone on the far right of the curve as typical of the peak of the peak (middle) of the curve.
My issue is that folks making VERY good money like to kid themselves they’re “middle class” – when you look at the median income – it doesn’t make sense.
Here’s another bit of data for you. In San Diego County, for 2006 the median income was $36,081, it was $67,935 for married filing jointly.
http://www.ftb.ca.gov/aboutftb/press/2008/08_23attach.pdf
$250k is NOT middle class. It’s 3.6 times greater the median income for a couple filing jointly. Even in expensive San Diego it’s not middle class. No matter how much it costs to live here.
ParticipantAsianautica –
I’m saying that historically the middle class was made up of middle income earners. Like Cops/nurses/teachers/firefighters. I’m not trying to deny anyone the incentive or drive to work harder and earn more. I’m not sure why you suggest that.
It comes down to numbers. Median household income for CA for 2005/2006 was $54,385.
(source: http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/income06/statemhi2.html)So by definition, middle class is the “middle” – or some range around that median income. Not the top 10% of earners.
You said that no-one says $250k is middle class. The OP of this thread claimed just that.
Waiting for bottom said:
$250K in the Bay area or San Diego is middle class. It is not the same as making $250K in Kansas. Feinstein has a responsibility to her constituency to back us up on this.My point is – people have choices. You can live somewhere else and live a grander lifestyle on a smaller income – but perhaps be further from family, the beach, the good weather. Or you can live in San Diego, perhaps for job reasons, family, etc… but it is a choice. And your income won’t go as far.
Here in CA, by any cold analysis of income medians, averages, etc, $250k is NOT middle class. I agree it’s not “uber-rich” – but why not be proud of the fact that it IS upper class.
Another post mentioned earlier generations who had large families in smaller houses. My husband was one of six kids and lived in a row house in Philly – about 1200 sf. They were middle class by every definition – their combined income was about median for their area.
I’m not sure when those of us who are fortunate enough to be doing significantly better than middle class stopped appreciating it. I’m really grateful that my degree in engineering, my husband’s degree in architecture, and frugal lifestyle let us live a very comfortable life. But I don’t call myself middle class. And neither would the IRS.
ParticipantAsianautica –
I’m saying that historically the middle class was made up of middle income earners. Like Cops/nurses/teachers/firefighters. I’m not trying to deny anyone the incentive or drive to work harder and earn more. I’m not sure why you suggest that.
It comes down to numbers. Median household income for CA for 2005/2006 was $54,385.
(source: http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/income06/statemhi2.html)So by definition, middle class is the “middle” – or some range around that median income. Not the top 10% of earners.
You said that no-one says $250k is middle class. The OP of this thread claimed just that.
Waiting for bottom said:
$250K in the Bay area or San Diego is middle class. It is not the same as making $250K in Kansas. Feinstein has a responsibility to her constituency to back us up on this.My point is – people have choices. You can live somewhere else and live a grander lifestyle on a smaller income – but perhaps be further from family, the beach, the good weather. Or you can live in San Diego, perhaps for job reasons, family, etc… but it is a choice. And your income won’t go as far.
Here in CA, by any cold analysis of income medians, averages, etc, $250k is NOT middle class. I agree it’s not “uber-rich” – but why not be proud of the fact that it IS upper class.
Another post mentioned earlier generations who had large families in smaller houses. My husband was one of six kids and lived in a row house in Philly – about 1200 sf. They were middle class by every definition – their combined income was about median for their area.
I’m not sure when those of us who are fortunate enough to be doing significantly better than middle class stopped appreciating it. I’m really grateful that my degree in engineering, my husband’s degree in architecture, and frugal lifestyle let us live a very comfortable life. But I don’t call myself middle class. And neither would the IRS.
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