[carli]

[quote=FlyerInHi]Carli, I would argue that zoning takes away property rights. The rules are cookie cutter arbitrary and don’t take into account the lay of the land, people with resources can get variances but the regular guy is hurt.

So you end up with ugly suburbs like Clairemont that don’t get up zoned and remodeled.

I thInk my view is more big picture than those of soccer moms who don’t want to deal with traffic taxiing their kids around in their SUVs and mini vans.[/quote]

FlyerInHi, since you view yourself as mainly focused on big picture, try to address the big picture question instead of dodging it with a remark about zoning: Why should a developer’s property rights trump individuals’ property rights?

And no need to attempt to discount differing opinions with meaningless labels like soccer mom and silly outdated stereotypes.

[carli]

[quote=FlyerInHi]Actually if you want organic growth, you do let the landowner/developer build whatever he wants.

What about property rights and getting the best and highest use?

Zoning is a relatively new concept. The organic growth neighborhoods that we love now happened without zoning.

I would argue that without zoning, change would happen much more quickly. The market would adjust and provide profit incentives to deliver the housing that people want.[/quote]

So FlyerInHi, there seems to be a major contradiction in your argument that a free market should solely determine development. One one hand, you say developers should have a right to do whatever they want with their property regardless of its impact on surrounding property owners. But you can’t have it both ways. If you want a “hands off” style of government, then you must also believe in the rule of individual property owners/citizens.

So what happens to individual property owners’ rights when a project like One Paseo dramatically impacts their lives and property (not to mention the environment, public safety, as well as so many other factors)? Do individual property owners’ rights go away just because a developer has a right to make a profit? Can’t have it both ways.

There’s a logical reason that community plans and zoning regulations were implemented. They provide a framework, albeit imperfect, for working out these kinds of issues.

[carli]

[quote=AN]carli, so, what you’re saying is, One Paseo is too dense. But yet, you also say there’s no public transit. You also say it’s impossible to stop the development and all of Carmel Valley are zoned to be not very dense. Which mean that you don’t mind that Carmel Valley will forever be a lower density area with no public transit, since there’s not enough density for a need for public transit. Am I understanding that correctly?[/quote]

AN –

Yes to your first two statements, which means yes, I’m saying One Paseo is too dense and yes, I’m saying there is NO public transit.

No to your third statement, as I don’t think I ever said “it’s impossible to stop the development” but what I did say is that there are already developments in the pipeline that should not/could not be stopped.

And no to your fourth statement “…you don’t mind that Carmel Valley will forever be a lower density area with no public transit…” If that’s how you understood what I was stating, I’ll clarify this is not what I meant to express. I do not want Carmel Valley to be solely made up of low density housing, nor do I want it to stay free of public transit. The opposite is true.

I think we differ in terms of the priority we place on things like aesthetics, quality of life (including hassle factors like traffic), environmental impacts, etc, or maybe we just have different needs.

Either way, I believe residents of a city should have a chance to weigh in on both the community planning process as well as major deviations from the plan, such as this one. As you said, it’s too bad we can’t send this One Paseo proposal to a vote.

As someone else mentioned, of course community plans become outdated quickly so let’s figure out a way to respond quicker to the changes in our community. But swinging the pendulum all the way to the other side and throwing out the plan to say yes to any developer’s proposal (the denser, the better) just because we need more housing is not the right answer. There is some common ground in between.

And a free market approach may sound attractive in theory, but I believe most people want a voice in how their surroundings evolve, especially when a considerable part of their income and/or net worth is probably tied up in it. Who among us is willing to say about our neighborhood, “Let the developers build what they want and the market will figure out if it’s the right thing”? No thank you.

[carli]

No, AN, I’ve only been addressing this thread and what’s being proposed in the current version of One Paseo. It’s impossible to make any general, broad brush statements about all building in the area.

But to answer what I think your question is getting at, of course I don’t want to (nor could we) freeze all building in the area until we get public transit. Look at all that’s in process of being built by Pardee alone. That ship has sailed.

What sets One Paseo apart from other developments and makes it so worthy of a closer look is its size. Because it’s so huge, its impact will be that much more hugely felt.

Times like this one present us with the opportunity (and I think responsibility) to express and push for what we need, such as public transit, in order to make this denser housing work.

The developer is requesting a variance to build 3 times what the current zoning allows (the area allows for 500,000 sf but the current One Paseo design is 1.45 mil sf), which will generate 24,000 additional cars/day, creating massive delays, creating valid public safety and environmental concerns, not to mention the huge hassle factor. Other developments request/receive variances to current zoning, but not 3 times what is allowed for the tract, and not with this magnitude of negative impact to the public and environment. Especially not without anyone even addressing any future plans to mitigate that impact, such as public transit.

The slogan for the One Paseo opposition group is “Not THIS One Paseo”. What they’re saying is that no one is opposing development at that spot, just not this crazy huge one.

[carli]

[quote=FlyerInHi]I won’t get my wish, but I would prefer Mission Valley type density and large condo/apartments complexes mixed with 20 story buildings, all along the 56 corridor over sprawl to other parts of San Diego.
[/quote]

Fair enough. I’m all for you wanting whatever you want. Doesn’t mean it will work to cram that many people in an area without decent ways to transport them in and out.

And it’s apples to oranges in the transit department – Mission Valley has several trolley lines, buses and 4 major freeways feeding into it, whereas Carmel Valley has zero public transit and two freeways, if you can even call the 2-lane 56 a freeway.

But here’s a visual – on the SD Transit System map, you’ll see a web of colorful squiggly lines all over Mission Valley and if you scroll down to the north county map, you’ll see absolutely none, just a vast blank space in Carmel Valley: http://www.sdmts.com/MTS/documents/rtm-oct-2014.pdf

Once there’s a decent plan for public transit in the area, denser housing should be supported, but until then, we’re creating more way problems than we’re solving.

[carli]

[quote=FlyerInHi]
Planning a city is about bold vision, not about protecting the quiet lives of some residents who don’t want change.[/quote]

So are you saying you view the current One Paseo as a bold vision? It’s far from it. It qualifies as change but not a bold vision. We only get one chance to impact whatever change happens on this huge chunk of land, but instead are you saying we should just let the developer do what he wants? Simply because it’s a change, and, hey, none of us wants to be the one standing in the way of change?

It’s an easy slam on residents to say they want to protect their quiet (upscale) lives and they don’t want change. The truth is that what many are focused on is helping shape that change. Although I don’t live in CV, I live nearby and feel a responsibility to weigh in on what that change will look like and feel like to live in, plus what impact it will have on our already stressed environment. We know this is what will serve upcoming generations best, not just building however much housing/retail the developer can sell.

So Flyer In HI, where do you weigh in on this version of One Paseo? Sounds like you’d tell the developer to just go for it, it’s okay to ignore the current zoning laws and build what he wants to maximize profits. If I’ve got you wrong, then what are your ideas? Please get involved, review the actual proposal and its impact and provide a few thoughtful suggestions about what you do or don’t want it to look like.

Most of us want more housing, and we see a great opportunity for a village type concept there, with some nice retail and work space, but how much, how high should the buildings be, how densely packed, how much traffic should it generate, what will accessibility be like for public transit, bikes, walkability, etc, and what will the impact on our environment be?

Or does none of that matter?

And P.S. I spent a 20-yr career in midtown Manhattan and lived in that area the vast majority of my life so I appreciate the comparisons but feel they’re irrelevant to our area. And NYC bounced back in the 90’s mainly thanks to the compassion/collaboration of Mayors Koch, Dinkens, followed by the hard nosed but welcome Giuliani who brought public safety back to the city. Without this, companies never would have come back. It wasn’t because they were allowed to build skyscrapers, first it was because it was a city in which they and their workers wanted to be. That’s the boldness of a vision – helping shape a sense of place first, not just saying, sure, go ahead and build stuff.

[carli]

Maybe, just maybe, self driving cars will be a reality in 10 years, but even if so, we’re still going to have to deal with too many cars, self-driving or otherwise, on our roads around here. Self-driving public transit might be the answer. 🙂

[carli]

Here’s a question – Is it likely that a world class city will evolve just because an area is a profitable place for developers to build dense housing/retail, even when a public transit system serving that housing/retail area is non-existent? There are zero plans to add any public transit in Carmel Valley until 2035, and even then it’s only listed in the SANDAG documents as a possibility.

And does anyone think SANDAG will hurry up and implement public transit because of a development in Carmel Valley? It’d be nice to dream they’re that responsive to evolving needs, but unfortunately that’s not the case. Believe me, there are many residents who’ve been lobbying for years for at least a bus to go up and down Del Mar Heights Rd. We don’t even have public transportation for the 4000 students who go to the 3 high schools that are within 2 miles of each other on DM Heights Rd. It’s every family (or carpool) for itself, driving up and down DM Heights Rd. Crazy.

I can’t think of one world class city without a robust public transit system, but I can think of lots of cities with dense housing that continue to attract residents. These cities probably rationalize building these developments for the same reasons – the demand is there, let’s increasing housing stock so our kids can afford to stay, etc. Think of Orange County. Would you call Costa Mesa or Irvine a world class city? That’s where it looks like we’re headed without a public transit system.

But we can change that if we want to…just not by first creating overly dense housing and increasing our traffic mess in an area with zero public transit.

[carli]

Peoplefirst, there are many points I could take issue with in your post, but you really lost all credibility when you stated the current One Paseo proposal is actually good for the environment.

As you know, there will be massive traffic impacts (predictions of 24,000 more car trips/day) and no one, including Kilroy Development, has addressed public transit. People may not realize there is absolutely zero public transit serving Carmel Valley and One Paseo. (Public transit map is here; notice the big blank space throughout Carmel Valley: http://www.gonctd.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/System-Map-Feb-2015.pdf) The closest public transit is the bus that goes north/south on Coast Highway 101 in Del Mar, 2+ miles to the west. Are most people who depend on public transit going to move to a place where they need to walk almost 2.5 miles (including two big hills) to take the bus?

And please don’t say that One Paseo is good for the environment because it will offer some denser housing options. Adding 24,000 additional car trips/day trumps the One Paseo housing deal in terms of environmental impact by a long, long shot.

[carli]

This One Paseo debate and residents’ concern is far beyond a NIMBY response. It’s absolutely crazy that this development has made it this far.

Sherri Lightner, our area’s elected representative to the City Council, has not voiced adequate concern nor is she pushing back on the developer. What more facts does she need other than the lot is approved for 500,000 sf and the developer is proposing (in his scaled down version), 1.45 million sf?

For comparison sake, it’s projected to be similar in density to Horton Plaza downtown, and 3 times the density of UTC mall. It will be 5 times the size of Del Mar Highlands shopping center, right across the street. Most importantly, it will generate 24,000 additional car trips a day, creating huge traffic jams, making it close to impossible for emergency vehicles to respond in a timely way, and also creating huge delays entering the freeways and moving anywhere on Del Mar Heights Rd.

Believe me, many area residents are for “smart growth” with improved walkability, community connectivity and housing options, but that is not what this version of One Paseo would offer. People must not realize that there is NO public transportation on Del Mar Heights Rd or serving One Paseo at all, and there are no plans to implement any public transit until 2035, if at all. One Paseo, as it stands now, is one big car-centric over-development.

It’s crazy talk, and shocking that the project in its current form has even gotten this far. We already have zoning regulations in place, and this variance request is so far out of the scope of what’s reasonable that it’s bizarre the City Council is even considering it. Hmm, let me see, the lot is approved for 500,000 sf and the developer proposes 1.45 mil sf…why is this even being considered, and why is this not a clear waste of the developer’s time/money, as well as taxpayer’s? As one resident wrote in to the local paper in a letter to the editor: “Wouldn’t that be like me tearing down my 3,300-square-foot Carmel Valley tract home and applying to construct a 10,000-square-foot four-story apartment building in its place? What would the planning department — and my neighbors — think of that?”

San Diego residents, even if you live nowhere near this, please don’t let this happen. It will set a dangerous precedent for our city zoning regulations. Make sure your city council rep knows how you feel before the Feb 23rd vote (you can visit the following website, put together by a local resident, to send an email or sign a petition: http://www.whatpricemainstreet.com/).

[carli]

I’ve done a similar move as you’re considering (lived in lower Fairfield County, CT, commuted to Manhattan) and moved here about 8 yrs ago. We also had similar criteria to yours and same feelings about how to raise our family.

FWIW, we landed in Del Mar, which is not perfect, but we still feel fortunate to live here. It will be tough to find what you want under $1.75 mil in Del Mar, and you won’t find the acreage. But your mindset will probably adjust on that and several other points when you get here – for example, instead of lot size, you might evolve to wanting a yard with privacy or a view. I think you’ll find that the weather allows you and your kids to be out at the beach or other local parks, and you won’t miss having a lot of land. Plus, the cost of water is getting so crazy here that even if you have drought tolerant landscape (as we do) without a lawn, you may not want to have more than about a 10,000 sf lot (and I remember being alarmed/amused at having lots measured in square footage instead of acres, but you get used to it!)

Many people on this site have strong personal feelings about which areas are “best” and like to defend them but some, including bearishgirl, do not have firsthand knowledge living in the area you’re leaving so do not speak from experience on that angle. I wholeheartedly agree with SD Realtor that you should come out to the area and rent first, get a feel for each town/area of SD and decide for yourself which is best for you and your family.

Again, feel free to PM me for more info, as I’m wary of getting into yet another debate here about which area is “best.” Obviously, what’s right for me may not be right for you so I don’t feel a need to defend Del Mar or even coastal North County as the right place for you. But I’m happy to privately offer my opinion and observations on the area, coming from the same area as you will be leaving, and with many of the same thoughts as you have about how to raise a family.

[carli]

Oh well, another formerly thoughtful, interesting discussion has turned into a stream of BG’s off-the-wall personal musings. I realize this might be her idea of entertainment, but I have no interest in taking part. I now fully understand and appreciate the “ignore user” button.

[carli]

I don’t feel personal about this at all. I don’t live in either La Jolla or Carmel Valley and as nice as each community is in its own way, I wouldn’t choose to live in either. La Jolla is too touristy and difficult to get in and out of and Carmel Valley is too cookie cutter for us. Just trying to fill the data in with some local color. Although you mention the blog is data driven, we’re all providing opinions at this point, at the request of the OP. Your opinion is in the mix, too, when you state your assumption about which demographic(s) are helping create the delta in real estate prices between La Jolla and Carmel Valley.

This is where we differ – on our opinions. My opinion is that these are vastly different communities and many families who are attracted to Carmel Valley would not choose La Jolla over Carmel Valley. They live in Carmel Valley because it is extremely family oriented, which La Jolla is not.

I guess we’ll never know. But it’s not personal. The OP can live wherever she wants to live; just trying to provide anecdotal background, trying to be helpful to a fellow east coaster who’s moving out here….when we first arrived in the area, we too were smitten by the charm and walkability of La Jolla and started our search there, like many others. But once you live in the area, you begin to see the nuances of each community appear and opinions evolve. Hopefully, that’s helpful, but if not, feel free to ignore. 🙂

[carli]

Not sure I understand as we’re not able to wave magic wands but are instead discussing what’s actually in existence now. If we’re waving magic wands, and if you like the walkability of a village like La Jolla, as the OP stated, we might as well wave the wand and buy a 3500 sf house in modern condition in Del Mar village for $1.2 mil, and be in the same high performing school district as Carmel Valley. Most families would do that. That’s the more direct comparison, but unfortunately those houses cost more like $4-6 million.

But you’re right, this is a little bit of a chicken and egg discussion as the Pardee marketing people did not design the 3500 sf Carmel Valley houses just for kicks but because they saw a need in the marketplace – families moving to Carmel Valley for the schools, not just to live in 3500 sf houses.

And I don’t mean to sound snarky, just trying to illustrate the point.

[carli]

Yes, Westwood, you’re right, the denominator is not the whole 1900 student body…I didn’t think it all the way through but I’m not sure what the correct denominator is. I imagine the district could explain their exact methodology…it gets kind of complicated because they do the lottery in April, publish results in March and then require everyone to make a final selection shortly afterwards. Once that’s done, they usually take a good portion off the waitlist (the 138) but this year, they reported that they didn’t have enough attrition from people who ended up declining or whatever and just a week or so ago, they posted on their website that they would not be backfilling from the waitlist as they’ve done in the past.

But even if it’s the 77% chance you cite, that represents great odds, and the way most of us locals feel is that we’re fine with the default choices (for example, if our kids hadn’t gotten in to CCA, Torrey Pines HS would’ve been our default school since we live in Del Mar, and would be the same for families living in Carmel Valley). It’s not as if TPHS’s academic performance indicators, class sizes, etc are dramatically different than CCA’s and there are even some advantages to TPHS, depending on your perception (TPHS has a more “traditional” high school experience with a football team and a lot of school spirit, a typical bell schedule of classes w/more “reasonable” pace of classwork and not the intense 4×4 CCA schedule, etc).

On another note, I think your statement is inaccurate, “The primary reason that many families chose CV over La Jolla, however, is that you can get a lot of house in CV for over $1 million (if not much yard) and not much house in La Jolla for under $2 million.”

This is impossible to prove, but having lived in the area for 10+ years and knowing many CV families, I think if you took a poll, you’d find that families do in fact move to Carmel Valley primarily for the school district, closely followed by the fact that the CV community is just simply set up for family living, much more so than La Jolla (which is of course a pro or con depending on your perception and demographic.) Carmel Valley = total Familyville while La Jolla = mix of retirees, vacation home owners, singles and families.

To say it’s about square footage when a family chooses Carmel Valley over La Jolla is skipping over a lot of other factors and oversimplifying the typical family’s home buying decision. It may appear as a logical conclusion to you when studying differences in academic performance between districts, but I bet it isn’t what you’d hear from local families.

[Author]

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