Which public schools are better: Carmel Valley or La Jolla

[DaCounselor]

To answer your question er, the SD Unified enrollment options catalogue lays everything out. You have to go to their website to download it. The short story is that 3 out of the 4 programs actually give priority to the lowest achievers. Once you have transferred, the district’s continuity policy keeps you at that school (if you want) so no need to re-apply. The only students given priority over the lowest achievers are siblings of continuity students, regardless of performance.

There are plenty of local 92037 kids to fill those schools. The 2010 census says there are about 12,000 school-age kids in 92037. That is actually an increase over the 2000 census figures so the school-age population is rising, not falling. The fact is that many opt for private schools and that leaves enough space open for lots of transfers.

From what I have seen regarding CV vs LJ the data is what it is. At the middle and high school level (haven’t had time to look at all elementaries but probably there too):

CV – higher test scores, almost entirely local students, minimal free lunches, higher percentage of educated parents (college/grad)

LJ – lower test scores, substantial non-local students, substantial free lunches, lower percentage of educated parents.

CV has overcrowding issues at a few schools that I think exceed such issues in LJ. CV has a significant and growing Asian enrollment. LJ has a significant Hispanic enrollment.

What people do with these facts, how they interpret them and so on, is up to them. These are just the facts m’am.

[earlyretirement]

[quote=sjglaze3]Hi I just had to reply to this thread. My daughter attends Muirlands and is going to LJHS in the fall. She is a VEEP student and takes a school bus in the morning (yes BG the district is still running free school busing). There was no academic requirement, high or low, for being a VEEP student, just being in the right cluster area (we live in South Park). I have been very impressed with the academic rigor at Muirlands and its very strict no tolerance policy on bullying, drugs etc. Incidentally my daughter has a 3.8 GPA and her local bused in friends are likewise doing well academically. Just my 2 cents.[/quote]

Thanks so much sjglaze for taking the time to post that. It’s always nice to hear actual real-life current information from parents. So really appreciate it and congrats on the success of your daughter.

[quote=DaCounselor]To answer your question er, the SD Unified enrollment options catalogue lays everything out. You have to go to their website to download it. The short story is that 3 out of the 4 programs actually give priority to the lowest achievers. Once you have transferred, the district’s continuity policy keeps you at that school (if you want) so no need to re-apply. The only students given priority over the lowest achievers are siblings of continuity students, regardless of performance.

There are plenty of local 92037 kids to fill those schools. The 2010 census says there are about 12,000 school-age kids in 92037. That is actually an increase over the 2000 census figures so the school-age population is rising, not falling. The fact is that many opt for private schools and that leaves enough space open for lots of transfers.

From what I have seen regarding CV vs LJ the data is what it is. At the middle and high school level (haven’t had time to look at all elementaries but probably there too):

CV – higher test scores, almost entirely local students, minimal free lunches, higher percentage of educated parents (college/grad)

LJ – lower test scores, substantial non-local students, substantial free lunches, lower percentage of educated parents.

CV has overcrowding issues at a few schools that I think exceed such issues in LJ. CV has a significant and growing Asian enrollment. LJ has a significant Hispanic enrollment.

What people do with these facts, how they interpret them and so on, is up to them. These are just the facts m’am.[/quote]

Thanks DaCounselor! Yes, I figured this was all available online but I appreciate you taking the time to post it. It’s very helpful. As with this thread, I often hear conflicting information about these types of things. Even from parents that send their kids there. So it’s nice to hear both sides of this.

Super interesting comments.

[Anonymous]

I don’t live in either community, but have often wondered the answer to this question as we have been considering relocating to the San Diego area.

DaCounseler’s data, combined with the most recent API data, suggests that La Jolla is the better school district while he implies the opposite. Why? La Jolla has a much more economically heterogeneous student population with a significant percentage of economically disadvantaged student (not sure of the percentages, seems to 30 to 35 percent for La Jolla middle and high schools based on prior posts). Moreover, the insinuation is that the transfer students have poor academic records or at a minimum, their academic records are not considered when their transfer request is granted (Not sure this is true, but assuming so for the purpose of this analysis). On the other hand, CV has a mostly affluent, homogeneous population. If CV also has better teachers and classroom resources, it should have API scores light years better than La Jolla.

This is simply not the case. TP High has an API of 888; La Jolla 854 (not looking at CCP since it is entirely a lottery school, and the other two aren’t). It’s a bit more pronounced difference
at the middle school, but still not overwhelming; CV middle 977; Muirland Middle 917. If thirty to thirty five percent of la Jolla’s students are poor, not particularly academically directed students, then La Jolla is doing an amazing job as getting them to almost the same place as the allegedly more motivated CV kids. Also, DaCounselor doesn’t look at the La Jolla elementary schools (although transfer levels here are virtually nil). La Jolla Elementary has an API higher than any CV school and Bird Rock higher than all but three CV schools (Ocean Air, Sage Canyon, and Del Mar Heights).

[UCGal]

Just because a student’s household is in a VEEP qualified cluster, that does not translate to the individual student being a poor student academically. It means they live in a neighborhood that the SCHOOL was failing. Not every student.

I have friends who’ve purchased in CV just for the schools. And I have friends who’ve purchased in LJ just for the schools.

I chose to stay where I am (University City) and use the choice system to get into the schools we wanted. In our case, it wasn’t La Jolla, my younger son will continue at Hawthorne Elementary (looks terrible on paper but has a PHENOMENAL seminar program that is unmatched anywhere). My older son will be attending the IB program at Roosevelt.

I agree completely that involved parents are the key. A good student will succeed, anywhere… but parents can’t just plunk their kid down in a “good” school and wash their hands…

As usual – you have to look at what the API numbers are… I transferred my sons from a school that looks good on paper (Curie Elementary) to one that looks terrible on paper – but had a program and 2 specific teachers that are the best of the best. API scores don’t reflect that.

[zk]

[quote=westwood] CV has a mostly affluent, homogeneous population. [/quote]

In case this is important to the OP, a little clarification. CV’s population is far from homogenous, unless you’re speaking strictly from an economic standpoint. (Which westwood, I imagine, was). Economically, it’s mostly a mix of upper-middle class and upper class.

Demographically, it’s a mix. White, Chinese, Korean, Indian, and Middle Eastern with a sprinkling of Mexican (mostly upper-middle to upper class immigrants from Mexico) and the occasional Russian or other European or Asian. Rarely, African-American. Wikipedia will tell you it’s 70% white and 18% Asian. I seriously doubt that. Between Chinese, Korean and Indian, there’s way more than 18%. I’d previously read thirty-something percent Asian somewhere, and that sounds more accurate.

[DaCounselor]

Characterizing CCA as a “lottery” school is technically correct so I take no issue there but I raise the question of what are a kid’s chances of getting in? I have heard but not confirmed a success rate in the range of 90%. If so, that’s my kind of lottery. I have heard but not confirmed that CCA also has a continuity policy and sibling policy so once you are in there is no need to re-apply and your sibs get preference as well. If the above is true, I would not carve this school out of the analysis of LJ v. CV but instead would make the direct comparison. Per the DoE data CCA’s API in ’12 was 917 vs. LJH at 854. Whether someone finds that difference significant or not is up to them. At the middle school level, the DoE show CVM at 974 vs. Muirlands at 913 for ’12. Significant or not is up to you.

With respect to the SDU transfer policies, I make no assumptions and rely entirely on their published catalogue, which can be downloaded quite easily. It says what it says and I know nothing more.

Regarding socio-economically disadvantaged students, I think the data is clear that LJ has a far higher % than CV, which I assume is due to incoming tranfers from transfer program pattern feeder schools. I would expect some degree of higher motivation or at least higher level of parental involvment with respect to kids who are transferring in relation to those who stay put, for the obvious reasons.

I would expect that the transfer students’ performance in general would be higher than if they did not transfer based again on the obvious. However I think the suggestion that LJ has raised these students’ performance to the level of the average “allegedly more motivated” CV student is not borne out by the data, again at the middle and high school levels.

According to the DoE, the “average” CVM student has an API of 974. The same source states that the average API for a socio-economically disadvantaged youth at Muirlands is 793. That is almost 200 points. Significant or not is up to you. At LJH, the socio-economically disadvantaged API is 737 whereas at CCA the average API is 917. Another large difference.

In fairness to LJ I think there is probably data to support that they are raising the scores of transferees and getting better academic performance out of them which is fantastic and the whole point behind the transfer policies. I think the same holds true for CV regarding their small enrollment of disadvantaged students, who at CVM have an API of 844 and at CCA have an API of 840 per the DoE (which still exceed those of their LJ counterparts but not by nearly as much as the “average” CV score)

Overall I would tend to agree with UCGal to also look beyond the numbers based upon your personal situation because the final correct answer is not necessarily related to an average test score or student background data. Nevertheless the scores are what they are and provide an objective source of comparison.

[Anonymous]

Color me not convinced. You can’t do a apples to apples comparison to CCA, nor do we have any objective data to indicate that the admission rate is as high as you claim. If you compare the sub-groups you chose, TP to La Jolla, La Jolla has higher test scores for socially disadvanged (737 to 699). If we went down to elementary schools, La Jolla would score better than nearly all the CV schools.

I don’t have a dog in this fight; I just think the data isn’t as much in CV’s favor as you do. OP would do well with either school district, the numbers are just not that different. If he/she is looking for an economically homogenous student body and is ok with larger schools, CV is definitely the place.

The primary reason that many families chose CV over La Jolla, however, is that you can get a lot of house in CV for over $1 million (if not much yard) and not much house in La Jolla for under $2 million.

[carli]

Yes, historically there’s been a better than 90% chance of getting in to CCA through the lottery. In this year’s lottery (for next 2013-2014 school year), it was reported that there were 138 who did not get in. Since total enrollment is a little less than 1900 students, that equates to about 7% if I did my math correctly.

Students who have a sibling at CCA are guaranteed a spot, but only if both siblings would be enrolled in the same school year. For example, families who have an 8th grader wanting to enroll at CCA next year as well as a graduating high school senior do not gain any advantage for their 8th grader/potential freshman. But if your kids are close enough in age, it works out nicely if the first gets in and the rest want to follow.

[Anonymous]

I don’t think your math is right. Of that 1900, most have already been there for at least a year and weren’t participating in the lottery since they were returning students. Another segment would be siblings. So, the correct denominator is not the entire student body, but the number of slots open after accounting for returning students and siblings of returning students. If you assume most students stay there for all four years once admitted, that number of open slots would be around 475 (for simplicity’s sake, let’s assume that students moving out of the district equals siblings of returning students, in reality, it’s probably lower, meaning the admission rate for new applicants is also lower). If you add the number of students who didn’t get (138) in to that number (475), you wind up with an admission rate of about 77 percent, so 23 percent of applicants did not get in.

[njtosd]

My son will enter CCA this fall. I have been told (although I have no hard data) that there were a significant number of freshman at Torrey Pines HS who wanted to transfer to CCA for sophomore year (and beyond). So your assumptions may be off –

[Anonymous]

Not sure how this affects my assumption since it doesn’t have to do with slots available, but demand for slots.

[carli]

Yes, Westwood, you’re right, the denominator is not the whole 1900 student body…I didn’t think it all the way through but I’m not sure what the correct denominator is. I imagine the district could explain their exact methodology…it gets kind of complicated because they do the lottery in April, publish results in March and then require everyone to make a final selection shortly afterwards. Once that’s done, they usually take a good portion off the waitlist (the 138) but this year, they reported that they didn’t have enough attrition from people who ended up declining or whatever and just a week or so ago, they posted on their website that they would not be backfilling from the waitlist as they’ve done in the past.

But even if it’s the 77% chance you cite, that represents great odds, and the way most of us locals feel is that we’re fine with the default choices (for example, if our kids hadn’t gotten in to CCA, Torrey Pines HS would’ve been our default school since we live in Del Mar, and would be the same for families living in Carmel Valley). It’s not as if TPHS’s academic performance indicators, class sizes, etc are dramatically different than CCA’s and there are even some advantages to TPHS, depending on your perception (TPHS has a more “traditional” high school experience with a football team and a lot of school spirit, a typical bell schedule of classes w/more “reasonable” pace of classwork and not the intense 4×4 CCA schedule, etc).

On another note, I think your statement is inaccurate, “The primary reason that many families chose CV over La Jolla, however, is that you can get a lot of house in CV for over $1 million (if not much yard) and not much house in La Jolla for under $2 million.”

This is impossible to prove, but having lived in the area for 10+ years and knowing many CV families, I think if you took a poll, you’d find that families do in fact move to Carmel Valley primarily for the school district, closely followed by the fact that the CV community is just simply set up for family living, much more so than La Jolla (which is of course a pro or con depending on your perception and demographic.) Carmel Valley = total Familyville while La Jolla = mix of retirees, vacation home owners, singles and families.

To say it’s about square footage when a family chooses Carmel Valley over La Jolla is skipping over a lot of other factors and oversimplifying the typical family’s home buying decision. It may appear as a logical conclusion to you when studying differences in academic performance between districts, but I bet it isn’t what you’d hear from local families.

[Anonymous]

All I said about CCA is that it couldn’t be directly compared to La Jolla High as TP High could be because it isn’t a general admission high school. I still think that is correct.

Otherwise, I think we arguing chicken and an egg. A large part of the reason that CV has more families and hence is perceived as more family friendly is that real estate is cheaper there, and the disparity was even greater 10-15 years ago when CV was being developed than it is now. Put it this way, if a magic wand was waved and you could suddenly buy a 3500 square foot house in La Jolla in a good location and in very good and modern condition for $1.2 or 1.3 million, there would be a lot more families moving there. The fact that those houses cost $2 million or more has many families looking elsewhere.
Indeed, this is one of the reasons OP said he was considered CV.

[carli]

Not sure I understand as we’re not able to wave magic wands but are instead discussing what’s actually in existence now. If we’re waving magic wands, and if you like the walkability of a village like La Jolla, as the OP stated, we might as well wave the wand and buy a 3500 sf house in modern condition in Del Mar village for $1.2 mil, and be in the same high performing school district as Carmel Valley. Most families would do that. That’s the more direct comparison, but unfortunately those houses cost more like $4-6 million.

But you’re right, this is a little bit of a chicken and egg discussion as the Pardee marketing people did not design the 3500 sf Carmel Valley houses just for kicks but because they saw a need in the marketplace – families moving to Carmel Valley for the schools, not just to live in 3500 sf houses.

And I don’t mean to sound snarky, just trying to illustrate the point.

[Anonymous]

Honestly, I think you are taking this way too personally. I already said they are both excellent school districts. Cost puts La Jolla out of the reach of many families that might otherwise like to live there. I’m sure there are also families that would like to live in CV that can’t afford it, but OP’s $1.2 million budget will get him a nice house there. I understand from your posts that you would not like to live in La Jolla over CV, but this is a market data driven blog, and price per square foot indicates that many people are willing to pay a premium to live in La jolla (I agree, coastal Del Mar is almost as pricy).

The only reason I posted initially is the thread began to have a tone of La Jolla schols can’t be as good because it lets in VEEP kids. I don’t believe that to be supported by the data; perhaps others do.

[Author]

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