Unpermitted work on older homes

[zzz]

Is it even possible in metro SD ( 92103, 04, 06) etc to find an original 30-50s home where there is plumbing, kitchen remodels, roof work, decking, etc all done with permits?

Have been looking at homes in these areas for a long time, it seems that the majority of them do not have work done with permits – at least the city cant find em. I’m not even talking about additions done without ( which I’ve seen plenty of as well)

How much of a concern is this or is this just a fact of life for urban metro SD homes that are older? Not all inspectors are worth their sauce, so how much would you rely on a home inspector to judge the quality of the work?

[birmingplumb]

Permits: Depends who you are.
While sitting in a courtroom 1/2 hour before court began in Troy Michigan (waiting for my recently diagnosed with mental illness (bi-polar schizoeffective disorder) oldest son to be led in for sentencing for dwi), a woman entered the courtroom and sat in my row near the center. 5 minutes later, a third person (her husband)entered, walked up to her and said “hold my wallet, there is 3000 dollars you will be fine”. She took the wallet and started to cry.
His case was called first. As if God was sending me a message thru what was about to play out before this Plumbers eyes. “You are charged with performing plumbing without a permit in Clawson Michigan,second offense-what say you” Judge to guy as wife openly sobbs. “Guilty with explanation”- guy said—-” My Dad died 9 months ago and since that time I have been frantically searching for a master plumber to sign and pull permits but it is very difficult to find someone I can trust-I have been taking classes and think I can pass test now.” Guy said.
“You are here again after we caught you before” Then the guy told the real truth. “We are a drain /sewer cleaning company for 35 years my dad started. I never went for my plumbing license like him, I just cleaned drains and he pulled permits when we found we had to replace a root infested sewer, we provide a fair price to good people, have never had a complaint agaist us that we did not correct to customers satisfaction, and basically just help people for a very low price of about 3k when we have to dig 10ft deep trench from house to street and put in a new plastic 4 inch sewer(risking our lives without proper shoring to save homeowner money). We have many happy customers and we are not hurting anybody, I am sorry my father died but I have a family to feed.” She sobbs. They lead in my son. He is acting weird and starring at me. The judge” 90 days in Oakland county jail, credit for 35 days served.”
Meanwhile the Big 3 plant I work at has 10,000 OSHA violations, was built without any permits and despite my letters, grievances and outrage-continues to produce cars all in the name of saving the middle class.
So prosecutor discretion ala Janet Napalitano and the “dream act”is all I can think of.

When any city or government entity, refuses to obey the Law (and believe me you have a Plumbing and Building law,as I just passed your California exam and hold a license (c-36) to Plumb in California, realize that some lobbying group benefits more than the lost permit fees the people of San Diego lose.and Many cities require a inspection prior a sale- which is being supported by building trades and contractors to drum up some work for the needy laid off soon to be homeless tradesmen no longer afforded in this “race to the bottom”.
Step 1 to create change in a policy is to build a fire under the politician. This battle needs to be taken up by the Building Trades Unions in San Diego and Southern California.
Step 2 Find a labor friendly prosecutor to allow a “sting” operation and arrest any non licensed worker who cuts a pipe or pulls a wire .
Step 3 Cause to have the “35 arrested in sting operation, homeowners being protected” new San Diego prosecutor means business in headlines
Step 4 Hire a contractor to start policing companies and visit commercial then residential buildings to pull inspections, check for permits, issue citations and become self supporting.
Then you might have something worth being called “Made in USA” but a remedy is possible- hope this helps understand why-need help on plan-Motown

Motown

[bearishgurl]

Awesome post, birmingplumb!

Any “labor-friendly” prosecutors would have a field day in my neck of the woods (which is <9 mi north of the int'l border). No one is minding the store here and that's the way the homeowners in SD County like it.

I can't tell you how many fantastically-talented "authentic" journey-level tradesman that I have known throughout life who, up to 20 years ago could make a decent living for their families in the trades under subcontractors but can now no longer even support themselves in this county in their chosen line of work so are working doing something else or “semi-retired” and doing “odd jobs.” Some are either collecting union pensions or are eligible for one but have not yet begun to collect it.

I believe all CA community colleges should re-emphasize the Regional Occupational Program (ROP) and bring back all programs and trades with a vengeance. There is absolutely NO REASON in this day and age for a young person to borrow $30K+++ to obtain an (overrated) bachelor’s degree when one can make $28+ per hour (w/benefits) as an apprentice HVAC technician … straight out of the gate after just 12-24 mos training to earn a certificate!

ROP is FREE to qualified low-income students and only $46 per semester hour to everyone else. There’s absolutely no excuse whatsoever not to have a way to make a living by age 20 if not pursuing a four-year degree.

[birmingplumb]

Great point on the HVAC 2 yr program (I took same classes in 1990 as a backup to plumbing). Refrigeration is the way to go,you have great insight/vision.
Current California Law states “no permit required for any repair work done on a single family residence, even plumbing, if repair is under $500.” or words to that effect. Change that law.
What is the difference between installing a water heater (permit,plumbers c-36 license required by law) and changing a washer on a faucet ( no permit, no license required) when in reality, both tasks require a breech of the potable water supply system. (opens the system to possible contamination). So why then is it allowed?
Many have died due to no inspection, no permit & sloppy work-9 members of a single family in Texas come to mind when a kid hit the water heater power vent pipe down basement with a football and the “power vented water heater’s fan caused carbon monoxide to spill taking 9 lives.(No screws [3 required]on each vent pipe joint) So codes do not need new reasons, just concerned citizens holding code offical’s accountable-laws are there.
Glad to discuss this, great things begin with a discussion.Motown

[EconProf]

Birmingplumb: Is a licensed plumber required to clear a drain in Michigan? BG: What about San Diego. My comment will follow your answer(s).

[spdrun]

Birmingplumb – are you seriously suggesting that a permit should be required to change a sink washer? If so, with all due respect: you’re insane. Or just want your profession to be protected by law from people who are smart enough to do the work themselves rather than hire a union parasite.

We can’t make everything 100% safe, and accidents will always happen. The water heater example is moot, since a permit/inspection is required in CA. What do you suggest to prevent DIY work? Only making plumbing parts available for sale to licensed tradesmen?

[RichardJamesEsquire]

A Plumbing Permit is not required for the following plumbing work:
(a) Stopping of leaks in drains, soil, waste, or vent pipe. However, this
exemption does not apply for the replacement of any drain pipe, soil, waste, or
vent pipe with new material in any part as part of the repair.
(b) Clearing of stoppages, or the repair of leaks in soil, waste, or vent pipes,
valves, fixtures, or replacement of exposed traps in existing plumbing systems
serving lavatories, sinks, laundry trays, or similar fixtures.
(c) Replacement in kind of plumbing fixtures in any single dwelling unit, or in
any multiple dwelling unit building with 8 or fewer units.

[RichardJamesEsquire]

I completely disagree with you. HVAC is not that lucrative and entry level would be more like $15 an hour. If someone cuts it they could make the $28 you describe after maybe 5 years if they are good. If your not in a union you can’t be an apprentice. I don’t know about the sheet the metal workers union but that is irrelevant because they are sitting at home right now. I can speak for the pipe trades union. A second year apprentice makes 60% of journeyman scale which is $28 and change unless he can negotiate something above that. There are at least a 100 union guys in town making over $35 and up to a dozen over S40. Probably a similar number or more (to compensate for lack of benefits) working non-union. But the vast majority of the guys driving the hvac vans you see on our freeways are making less than the 28 you describe, have many more years experience than the 2 you describe, and sit at home when there is no work. While HVAC has done better than other building trades the past few years because it is has more service work than the other trades which are primarily construction, it is still in a bad place and not lucrative. Essentially the building trades in So Cal have been destroyed.

I also find it funny that anyone would think the labor unions would care at all about anything residential in San Diego as they do zero residential work here.

[spdrun]

If owners can do the work themselves, then perhaps the “destroyed” tradespeople aren’t needed after all. Time for them to go back to school or move somewhere else. In short: let ’em eat cake — don’t create more regulations for the sake of protecting unneeded jobs.

[sdrealtor]

If you are a skilled tradesperson doing residential work at an hourly rate instead of having a business card that says OWNER you should be a fireman. You are doing the wrong thing or lack the skills to run your own business.

[RichardJamesEsquire]

I agree with you both…except that plumbing regulations are to protect the health and safety of our community…not to create work or limit competition. your plumbing is connected to everyone else’s. Why don’t we have outbreaks of disease, because we maintain standards for sanitation. The homeowner can pull permits themselves. What really matters is that the work is done correctly.

While I have deep empathy for his situation he did bring this upon himself. The problem is a guy who was acting as a plumbing contractor couldn’t pass a plumbing test. A test probably base on plumbing code. A test which he was probably allowed to bring the code book into to look up answers.

Yes all us tradesman, even the ones doing the largest, most technical and difficult infrastructure projects should have been fireman instead…should we have known then what we know now. When I speak of the building trades residential doesn’t even come to mind.

A long time ago a residential plumber made the copper fittings…now they glue stuff together like we did in grade school. !@#$ runs down hill, payday is Friday, don’t chew your finger nails.

A good plumber is piping oxygen to every room in a hospital without the place blowing up and doing other industrial work.
A good HVAC tech is working for an industrial customer which has their own crew of HVAC people not capable of doing the work. Think central plant at a hosptital, college campus, where the buildings housing the HVAC equipment are larger than your homes.

[RichardJamesEsquire]

[quote=spdrun]If owners can do the work themselves, then perhaps the “destroyed” tradespeople aren’t needed after all. Time for them to go back to school or move somewhere else. In short: let ’em eat cake — don’t create more regulations for the sake of protecting unneeded jobs.[/quote]

I already commented on the need for sanitary regulations and that home owners can pull permits.

“unneeded jobs” I think plumbers are pretty needed and make significant contributions to society.

The problems in the building trades is not that they are unneeded (that comment is pretty ignorant and snobby).
The problems in the building trades are-
-a vicious boom and bust cycle (has been like this since before the founding of the nation).
-less jobs opportunities in manufacturing for non-college grads.
-illegal immigration.

I did not say the building trades are destroyed. I said the building trades are destroyed in Southern California.

[birmingplumb]

I probably am insane. But just sometime. No permit required in Michigan to open drain or California.

But the point was missed here based on the responses so far. You have to pull a permit to do plumbing. Many cities knock on your door when a water heater is put to the curb to check permit.
They (anybody with power and influence) do not.

If Plumbing license carrier of a family business died in California (I discovered after studying for Plumbing C-36) California had enough sense to allow any family member to sit for the test waiving even experience as I read it but in any case California is very lenient on this.

The washer example was just to make a point about disease.I do not need to protect “Plumbing” work as we get to “fix” what the homeowner is talked into installing then the damage caused as well.

“Is there a house for sale in San Diego that has permits?
My last answer comes to mind only after reading some of the replys and it is the same answer given to me from Rubin Montehanio, a 42 year old Mexican welder I met in 1984 while we both welded on your San Onefre Nuclear Station and I will quote: “Hey Rubin, why do you live in Tijuana Mexico, drive 100 miles home every day, you make good money don’t you?(7-12’s @29 dollars per)
“You gotta be dogfu..ing me man, are you insane? too many cookoo’s in this state. Motown

[spdrun]

Simple solution to the water heater: put it out in front of an annoying neighbor’s house. Wearing gloves. At 2 am 🙂

Yep, the trades are part of a boom-and-bust cycle. If the tradespeople didn’t have the good sense to save during the boom … F*** ’em.

As far as disease, unless the homeowner is doing work to the OUTSIDE sewer line, it’s vanishingly unlikely that it will affect other homes. It’s also very unlikely that sewage will enter the potable system unless something incredibly bizarre happens.

Despite your protestations to the contrary, your comments smack of a tradesman trying to stay relevant during a down economy. Display some adaptability, rather than advocating forcing people to use your services.

Regarding the test, why not allow ANYONE to sit a comprehensive test, regardless of experience? Seems like the experience requirement in many states is essentially perpetuating a guild, keeping foreigners with just as much ability and talent out of the business.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=birmingplumb] . . . Many cities knock on your door when a water heater is put to the curb to check permit . . . [/quote]

I can believe this, birmingplumb, and have been witness and/or a helper to countless DIY water-heater installations in my day. The trick is to put the old one immediately in the back of a pickup (to go to the dump).

We always installed them on an 18″ or higher wood or concrete pedestal and strapped them (for earthquake protection) per code.

Uninc areas in SD County do NOT have a contract with the trash collection services to pick up large discarded items for free but most of the cities do.

Nevertheless, I’ve always gotten rid of the old one the same time as a new one was installed or saved it for a few days in the backyard until a pickup was avail to go to the dump.

Thanks for reminding me about the vent screws. I just checked and put two more in, realizing a month ago that the vent was loose ;=]

[Author]

Posts