Prop 30: Southern California vs Texas

[Allan from Fallbrook]

SK: Might be an exaggeration, but not much of one. I understand politicians lie and their promises generally don’t count for much, but this administration has been hugely disappointing, especially when juxtaposed to the one that preceded it.

Yes, Wall Street certainly went for Romney in this cycle, but not because Obama took them to the woodshed.

It’s largely business as usual and in pretty much every sense of the word.

[paramount]

The more research I do on Texas, the more I like it – and much of the appeal goes back to one of my original statements: FREEDOM.

I found Lake view property starting at $19,900; but the best part is if you have a boat, you just take it down to the ramp and launch. That’s it!!!

No endless harassment by cops or some damn bureaucrat government worker, endless fees, endless lines, ENDLESS BS!!!

http://www.reserveatlaketravis.com/?gclid=CMD7iNWxh7QCFYN_Qgod8wQAQQ

http://livewatersedgeranch.com/

http://livesouthpoint.com/

[The Truth]

[quote=CA renter]
That’s right, you DIDN’T build that (and I was saying this long before Warren/Obama started saying it). Without all of the social, legal, physical, and military, etc. infrastructure provided by the government, it would be far, far more difficult to make money.[/quote]

BUT the government only gets the money to build that infrastructure thanks to the work of private citizens and companies. We DID do that. Without funding provided by the privately employed, the government has nothing. I am not saying that there should be no government, but that the ‘government’ doesn’t do this out of some grand benevolence with money it earns, but rather money it seized from private individuals and companies.

[quote=CA renter]As for the net, per capita benefit of govt services going to the rich vs the poor, I just stated above why that’s the case. Joe Sixpack, the lowly worker/welfare recipient, is not reaping nearly the same monetary benefit as someone who makes huge sums as a result of our military operations, infrastructure, intellectual property protection, well-regarded financial markets (because of our regulations, not in spite of them), etc.

You’re also wrong about your taxes necessarily going to someone who pays a lower tax rate. You can have someone who pays a rather high tax rate (say 40%) and another who pays a much lower tax rate (say 10%), but the second person might be getting far fewer benefits, per dollar paid, than the one who pays the higher rate. You can pay a 10% rate (or whatever random lower rate), but use very few govt-provided goods and services. The person paying a 40% rate might be a much heavier burden on the govt. [/quote]

Again, you are just making it up – saying what you feel or want it to be. ‘Might be this, could be that…’ You don’t get it: if someone is having a higher portion of their wages confiscated by taxes (and a higher overall dollar amount), they on average are shouldering a higher burden of the government. The fact is, there are over 66 million on some type of welfare program and another 21 million employed by the government. This is supported by 109 privately employed people. This is not sustainable. It’s a picture of our Social Security system on a grand scale.

The PA Dept of Welfare released a study that a single mother of two is generally better off taking a job paying $29K/year than one paying $69K/year thanks to to entitlements that more than make up for the $40K gap. We have something seriously wrong in this country and the entitlement society.

You also seem to be fond of bashing people/entities like Steve Jobs or Walmart. Do you have any idea how much worth has been created for people across the economic spectrum by Jobs or Walmart? But no, you wouldn’t think about that.

[spdrun]

As far as the entitlement gap, redesign the system to taper entitlements rather than removing them at a given cutoff income. Problem solved. As much as I hate dirty bathwater, I’d hate to flush a baby or two down the drain with it 🙂

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=spdrun]As far as the entitlement gap, redesign the system to taper entitlements rather than removing them at a given cutoff income. Problem solved. As much as I hate dirty bathwater, I’d hate to flush a baby or two down the drain with it :)[/quote]

Spdrun: Actually, quite a few good ideas have been floated regarding entitlement reform and from both sides of the aisle. However, changes to these programs are the third rail in American politics and thus nothing will change, until it hits full blown crisis mode.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=paramount]The more research I do on Texas, the more I like it – and much of the appeal goes back to one of my original statements: FREEDOM.

I found Lake view property starting at $19,900; but the best part is if you have a boat, you just take it down to the ramp and launch. That’s it!!!

No endless harassment by cops or some damn bureaucrat government worker, endless fees, endless lines, ENDLESS BS!!!

http://www.reserveatlaketravis.com/?gclid=CMD7iNWxh7QCFYN_Qgod8wQAQQ

http://livewatersedgeranch.com/

http://livesouthpoint.com/
[/quote]

Ahem … a few things come to mind here, paramount. First of all, how close are these lakes to well-paying jobs? You know … the kind you can raise a family (or two parents can raise a family) with? Want to work at the local Kerr McGee truck stop washing diesels or in the cash cage selling cigs? Or . . . are you ready to “retire” now??

And I’m sure you’re aware that these “cheap lots” don’t have any utilities. How much would it cost to hook up to gas and electricity? Or set up a propane tank, dig a leachfield and buy and bury a septic tank? And are you SURE you can get high-speed internet on ALL those lots?

Just an FYI, paramount, not THESE lakes, mind you, but in the last eight years, I’ve swam near a “renowned” beach for about three hours in a large lake and also was waterskiing in a (separate) lake, both in this region. The first time (swimming), I came home on a plane 1.5 days later with my head literally bursting before I deplaned. I rushed to an urgent care clinic where it turned out I had a double ear infection. After having them irrigated for 1.5 hrs (very painful), I was given an antibiotic shot and put on massive antibiotics for 2 weeks. On a subsequent trip, I was only in the water long enough to put on my ski and swim back to the boat. I then used some leftover prescription ear drops I had on the second day of my drive home. The next day, I went to the doctor to find out one of my ears was infected and was again put on antibiotics.

These ARE the same lakes that I remember spending my summers at as a child/teen but the WATER IN THEM is NOT the same. Many of the beaches don’t have any waste receptacles and the beach user is supposed to carry out their trash. However, party-animal teens get in there on weekends and college breaks and leave their trash everywhere, which floats out into the water. There’s no one to police the beaches or collect trash (hence no trash cans). There is very little personnel to police the water quality for the entire state and the state parks (where most of these large “resort-type” lakes are) are far apart from one another. It’s not uncommon to see many dead fish collected together on these beaches and their adjacent inlets.

The “boat ramps” are often unmaintained (have lower partial dropoffs, unbeknownst to authorities), can be very slippery, and depending on water level and what the boater is driving to back their boat into the water, it could be easy for them to lose their vehicle in the water. I’ve seen this happen several times and in all the times I’ve watched the vehicle go under, there were (fortunately) no people or animals in it and the driver bailed. On a couple of occasions, bystanders were successfully able to push the vehicle back up the “ramp” and instruct the driver how to drive out. The rest of the times the vehicle was lost and there were no authorities for miles around. I’ve also watched someone trash the lower end of their engine and prop on a large dead tree trunk which fell into the bottom of the “boat ramp” (again, unbeknownst to authorities).

Ahh, but you’re planning on storing your boat out of the water (on belts) in one of those fancy steel boathouses on foam tanks at your “resort,” right? Well, paramount, I hope you don’t mind jellyfish …. everywhere! They lay their eggs on and under the ladders leading into the water and park themselves everywhere on the insides and under the floor of your boathouse. EVERYTHING you touch within 2′ of the water is covered in slime. But you’ll get used to it.

Due to both wastewater and dam mismanagement, you can often see a line of thick bubbles (detergent) formed both up and downstream when you drive over a dam.

Oh, but there’s more. In the last 3 years, but very notably in 2012, there’s been dozens of (temporary, lol) lake closures there due to a flesh-eating bacteria found in them, causing several deaths and dozens of amputations.

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/honest-angler/2012/08/texas-angler-loses-leg-flesh-eating-bacteria-after-fishing-tourney

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Flesh-eating-bacteria-kills-angler-after-1734361.php

http://www.kvue.com/news/health/165586096.html

http://keanradio.com/does-flesh-eating-bacteria-exist-in-abilene-video/

http://texasfishingforum.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3676170/Re_Flesh_Eating_Bacteria

http://www.kcentv.com/story/15550899/flesh-eating-piranha-caught-in-texas-lake

http://voices.yahoo.com/rare-flesh-eating-bacteria-fells-carolina-teen-after-3733578.html

http://www.macon.com/2012/05/24/2036680/lake-sinclair-man-battling-flesh.html

I could go on.

The aerial views, travel photos (just like your links) and boating and fishing videos all show beautiful forested lakes with multiple islands that would take more than a week to explore. They advertise 18-hole golf, state-run log cabins, well-stocked lakes, nice beaches, houseboat tours, endless waterskiing, plenty of boat gas stations, fireworks, ETC. It all LOOKS like a lot of fun!

What happened to these lakes? Three words … crystal meth mfg. These “lucrative enterprises” were run out of SD, RIV and SB Counties in CA by teams of law enforcement from multiple agencies in the late nineties. Where did all this biz defect to? You guessed it. Those “flyover states” of TX, OK and AR are now infiltrated with them. These states typically operate with 1/4 to 1/5 of the law enforcement personnel (per capita) that CA has. But these “enterprising biz folks” didn’t “set up shop” in the middle of cities and towns there (much too much oversight). No-o-o-o. They made a beeline for the once pristine rural heartland where …. you guessed it again! NO ONE IS MINDING THE STORE, leaving them free to spread their poison and filth in the groundwater and waterways! And the “lone park ranger” resides 30-50 miles away.

I have relatives who have lived in these regions all of their lives and the water coming out of their faucets is has been NON-POTABLE for the past two years. A warning not to drink it is on billboards and constantly broadcast on local on TV and radio stations. It is also “rusty looking” due to the red clay there but is safe to bathe and wash dishes and clothes in.

paramount, I think you have a lot of “homework” to do before you decide to up and “relocate” out of T-town, Cali. Since this region doesn’t quite have a handle yet on this “seemingly intractable” problem, I’ll get you started with these links on the first page of your search:

http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oGdVELk8FQImkA3PFXNyoA?p=crystal%20meth%20raids%20texas%20oklahoma%20arkansas&fr2=sb-top&fr=ytff-yff17

This is what happens when state governments believe “personal freedoms” trump collecting enough taxes to have adequate “gubment bureaucrats” on staff to oversee these important “quality of life” issues which we take for granted here in “overtaxed” CA.

[an]

[quote=bearishgurl]Ahem … a few things come to mind here, paramount. First of all, how close are these lakes to well-paying jobs? You know … the kind you can raise a family (or two parents can raise a family) with? Want to work at the local Kerr McGee truck stop washing diesels or in the cash cage selling cigs? Or . . . are you ready to “retire” now??[/quote]
Seriously, you wrote a whole diatribe bashing Lake Travis without know where it is? It would probably be quicker if you would just search for it on the web. FYI, a simple Google search would show Lake Travis is ~15-20 miles away from Downtown Austin. So, why would you even bring up truck stop and selling cigs? http://goo.gl/maps/sygCE

[CA renter]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook][quote=CA renter][quote=EconProf]Amen Ctr70.
Reminds me of one definition confirmed by the recent election: majority rule democracy is when two wolves and a lamb vote on what to eat for lunch.[/quote]

Seems to me that the thousands of sheep got sick and tired of the small (but very powerful) pack of fat, rapacious wolves that have been decimating their herd…and they finally voted to do something about it.[/quote]

CAR: Except that a vote for Obama does nothing to change the status quo ante. You’ll recall that in 2008, Obama received the lion’s share of Wall Street donations (more than any presidential candidate in history, if I recall correctly) and since his election has done virtually nothing to hold those responsible for the financial meltdown accountable, let alone bring them to justice. If anything, things are largely the way they were before, in spite of Frank-Dodd and all of the promises to “clean up Wall Street”.

While Romney was not my cup of tea, he certainly wasn’t the mustache twirling plutocratic villain the Obama campaign made him out to be. If anything, the GOP and the Dems are aligned closely, fiscally-speaking. Yeah, there are differences on social issues, but when it comes to major policies on defense, spending, entitlements, etc, they’re more alike than different.

Wall Street is still pulling their shit, subprime is back (you didn’t think those inflated auto sales had anything to do with well qualified buyers, did you?) and it seems like everyone in power is hoping that the great mass of Americans will simply forget and move on, rather than demand action.

I don’t think this election represented some massive electoral movement from the populace, nor was it a collective call to action. People either don’t give a shit, are too ignorant to give a shit, or are simply looking to get over on Mommy Gubment and keep the gravy train rolling.[/quote]

Without a doubt, Obama has been terribly weak WRT the financial sector and reining in fraud. The financial firms that were entrenched before they caused the “financial crisis,” have even less competition and more power today. Even MoveOn.org has been very critical of Obama in the past, and that’s saying something. Still, what are our *viable* options? We are only given the option of the puppet on the left hand or the puppet on the right, but the puppet master is the same in either case.

I think many people are hoping that Obama does the right thing(s) during his second term. At the very least, we do know that Wall Street has been less supportive of him this time around, albeit slightly less so.

Keeping eyes open and fingers crossed…

[CA renter]

[quote=The Truth][quote=CA renter]
That’s right, you DIDN’T build that (and I was saying this long before Warren/Obama started saying it). Without all of the social, legal, physical, and military, etc. infrastructure provided by the government, it would be far, far more difficult to make money.[/quote]

BUT the government only gets the money to build that infrastructure thanks to the work of private citizens and companies. We DID do that. Without funding provided by the privately employed, the government has nothing. I am not saying that there should be no government, but that the ‘government’ doesn’t do this out of some grand benevolence with money it earns, but rather money it seized from private individuals and companies.

[quote=CA renter]As for the net, per capita benefit of govt services going to the rich vs the poor, I just stated above why that’s the case. Joe Sixpack, the lowly worker/welfare recipient, is not reaping nearly the same monetary benefit as someone who makes huge sums as a result of our military operations, infrastructure, intellectual property protection, well-regarded financial markets (because of our regulations, not in spite of them), etc.

You’re also wrong about your taxes necessarily going to someone who pays a lower tax rate. You can have someone who pays a rather high tax rate (say 40%) and another who pays a much lower tax rate (say 10%), but the second person might be getting far fewer benefits, per dollar paid, than the one who pays the higher rate. You can pay a 10% rate (or whatever random lower rate), but use very few govt-provided goods and services. The person paying a 40% rate might be a much heavier burden on the govt. [/quote]

Again, you are just making it up – saying what you feel or want it to be. ‘Might be this, could be that…’ You don’t get it: if someone is having a higher portion of their wages confiscated by taxes (and a higher overall dollar amount), they on average are shouldering a higher burden of the government. The fact is, there are over 66 million on some type of welfare program and another 21 million employed by the government. This is supported by 109 privately employed people. This is not sustainable. It’s a picture of our Social Security system on a grand scale.

The PA Dept of Welfare released a study that a single mother of two is generally better off taking a job paying $29K/year than one paying $69K/year thanks to to entitlements that more than make up for the $40K gap. We have something seriously wrong in this country and the entitlement society.

You also seem to be fond of bashing people/entities like Steve Jobs or Walmart. Do you have any idea how much worth has been created for people across the economic spectrum by Jobs or Walmart? But no, you wouldn’t think about that.[/quote]

I’m not making anything up. The way to determine whether or not someone is a net beneficiary of or net contributor to the government is to evaluate what they put in vs. what they get out. What you seem to ignore is the tremendous amount of “corporate welfare” we provide, with a huge portion of our military expenditures, not to mention research dollars, benefiting corporations, not Joe Sixpack (though we’re willing to let J6 die for the benefit of those corporations). You aren’t naive enough to believe that we fight wars in order to vanquish the “bad guys” who do mean things, are you? It is, and has always been, a fight to control natural resources and further enrich the few who have wealth and power. That is the ONLY reason we go to war.

As for the single mother of two, do you think she is choosing to take the $29K job instead of the $69K job? Again, if income and wealth were better distributed (with labor receiving a greater share of the surplus value that THEY create), she would not have to be on welfare in the first place.

Do you know how many decent paying jobs Walmart has destroyed (usually small mom & pop stores where the owners could make a modest, but decent living)?

As for Apple, I have a difficult time idolizing someone who does this:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-04/apple-profit-margins-rise-at-foxconn-s-expense.html

[bearishgurl]

[quote=AN][quote=bearishgurl]Ahem … a few things come to mind here, paramount. First of all, how close are these lakes to well-paying jobs? You know … the kind you can raise a family (or two parents can raise a family) with? Want to work at the local Kerr McGee truck stop washing diesels or in the cash cage selling cigs? Or . . . are you ready to “retire” now??[/quote]Seriously, you wrote a whole diatribe bashing Lake Travis without know where it is? It would probably be quicker if you would just search for it on the web. FYI, a simple Google search would show Lake Travis is ~15-20 miles away from Downtown Austin. So, why would you even bring up truck stop and selling cigs? http://goo.gl/maps/sygCE
[/quote]

AN, I’m truly “flattered” that this is all you could come up with to “pick an argument” with my “diatribe,” lol.

[quote=paramount] . . .
http://www.reserveatlaketravis.com/?gcli…
http://livewatersedgeranch.com/
http://livesouthpoint.com/
[/quote]

Actually, paramount’s first link was the only one near a major city (15-20 miles). Like SantaLuz in SD County, The “Reserve at Lake Travis” has “HOA” or “country club” mandatory membership dues of $129 mo, whether or not an owner has developed their lot yet. It appears that it is still early in its sales of homes and lots and is mostly still vacant. This means the monthly dues could likely rise after it is built out.

http://www.cypressclubmembership.com/index.php?/site/membership_levels/

A lot owner at “The Reserve” is obligated to build a house on his/her lot that is conforming with their strict CC&R’s and the lots and already-built and soon-to-be-built homes are VERY pricey.

http://www.reserveatlaketravis.com/site_plan

paramount’s last two links are ~100 miles from a major city.

My “diatribe” really wasn’t about paramount, in particular. He just happened to be handy … again. It was aimed at him and several Piggs who seem to be constantly lamenting here that the “grass is greener” somewhere other than Cali, yet they remain in Cali all the while they’re repeatedly complaining about it. Pigg paramount even bought another local home AFTER repeatedly complaining on this blog about how “corrupt” CA was!

I think it’s great we get to compare and discuss these other locales. But I feel that every time a Pigg touts some other locale on here as a preferable place to live over Cali, they are often comparing apples to oranges and/or are ignorant about what the lifestyle in their *new* state of interest will actually be like and how local laws there could impact their lifestyles.

Hence my “diatribe.” It all LOOKS GREAT in the ads but you can’t possibly know WTH you’re looking at if you haven’t been there for any length of time!

In paramount’s first link, I feel he would be very hard pressed to build a custom home from scratch to conform with the CC&R’s at “The Reserve,” IMHO. This takes a lot of time, patience and cash, and he already has two homes he would likely have to sell in SoCal before doing this. Then he would have to rent a home in TX while his home at the “Reserve” is being constructed. Moving to [name your “better-run” state] is but a pipe dream for “seemingly” disgruntled Californians, such as paramount, that is, until they find out first-hand what living there is all about. In my experience, they typically wanted to come back home (to Cali) in 1-3 years, and, in many cases, were priced out of the RE market here upon their return for a home similar to the one they sold just a few years prior in order to relocate!

**************************************************

Actually, lakes in the Austin, TX area (as well as other areas of the state) DO and DID have high bacteria levels, including Lake Travis.

http://www.kxan.com/dpp/news/local/austin/lakes-could-have-high-bacteria-levels

http://www.golaketravis.com/news.php?id=2571

http://www.keepbanderabeautiful.org/pollution.html

http://www.texs.com/magazine/archive_detail.php?Key=texas-bass-fishing&ArticleID=217

http://www.texascenter.org/almanac/QUALITYCH2P3.HTML

In addition, the massive use of fertilizer is contributing to this region’s water pollution by leaching into the groundwater and tributaries:

http://www.txpeer.org/toxictour/pilgrim.html

http://www.epa.gov/agriculture/tfer.html

And here’s an interesting video from the state of WY discussing shale oil extraction (fracking) as a possible cause of water pollution (convincing circumstantial but unproven):

http://www.water-contamination-from-shale.com/

In the state of OK, I can tell you that there are several fracking operations located >= 500 yards from the shore of a large lake.

Governments of these “flyover states” essentially allow the raping of their environment to keep their economies moving. Many thousands of residents there make their livelihoods in farming, including beef, pork and poultry production and gas and oil production.

I’m not saying this region is a bad place to live. Maybe you don’t swim or ski in the water and are used to buying your drinking water, anyway. But the bottom line is, you pay for what you get in this life. There is always a REASON why the lots you are seeing in these advertisements from “rural flyover America” are “cheap.” Well, definitely NOT at The Reserve at Lake Travis (high bacteria levels be damned), but you get the drift . . . :-0

[paramount]

[quote=bearishgurl]
My “diatribe” really wasn’t about paramount, in particular. He just happened to be handy … again. It was aimed at him and several Piggs who seem to be constantly lamenting here that the “grass is greener” somewhere other than Cali, yet they remain in Cali all the while they’re repeatedly complaining about it. Pigg paramount even bought another local home AFTER repeatedly complaining on this blog about how “corrupt” CA was!

[/quote]

Apparently the “grass is greener” (keyword greener) in Texas:

SAN RAMON, Calif. (AP) _ Chevron Corp. is moving 800 jobs in the San Francisco Bay area to Texas.

The shift of about a quarter of the petroleum giant’s San Ramon headquarters staff will take place over two years.

The San Francisco Chronicle says the employees, most of them in technical positions dealing with information and advanced energy technologies, will be transferred to Houston.

Chevron notified employees in an email on Thursday.

Chevron was founded in California in 1879.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=paramount][quote=bearishgurl]
My “diatribe” really wasn’t about paramount, in particular. He just happened to be handy … again. It was aimed at him and several Piggs who seem to be constantly lamenting here that the “grass is greener” somewhere other than Cali, yet they remain in Cali all the while they’re repeatedly complaining about it. Pigg paramount even bought another local home AFTER repeatedly complaining on this blog about how “corrupt” CA was!

[/quote]

Apparently the “grass is greener” (keyword greener) in Texas:

SAN RAMON, Calif. (AP) _ Chevron Corp. is moving 800 jobs in the San Francisco Bay area to Texas.

The shift of about a quarter of the petroleum giant’s San Ramon headquarters staff will take place over two years.

The San Francisco Chronicle says the employees, most of them in technical positions dealing with information and advanced energy technologies, will be transferred to Houston.

Chevron notified employees in an email on Thursday.

Chevron was founded in California in 1879.[/quote]

Interesting as well as unfortunate, paramount. San Ramon is my old “stomping ground” . . . back when it had a population of about 4K, lol.

[Author]

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