- This topic has 121 replies, 17 voices, and was last updated 11 years, 10 months ago by
KSMountain.
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July 5, 2012 at 4:45 PM #747285July 5, 2012 at 6:29 PM #747289
ocrenter
Participant[quote=briansd1]The Supreme Court has spoken on the subject of SB1070.
All the AZ state police can do is investigate the immigration status of people apprehended, if there is reasonable suspicion. And even that provision is on hold pending further litigation. It’s doubtful that AZ can setup a fair mechanism to comply with that provision of the law.
Sorry guys, the court has ruled and my side has been vindicated.[/quote]
Brian, dude, even the ILLEGALS themselves will freely admit they are illegal.
What you are arguing is totally counterproductive for what you are trying to achieve.
Here’s the bottom line if you call the illegals “undocumented”: since these foreign nationals are undocumented, let’s get them back to their countries of origin to obtain the proper documentation. Otherwise, how do we know maybe Jose is really Jorge, or Zhang is really Zhou? They were born somewhere where proper certificate of birth was generated, that is their documentation, if they are undocumented, then it is very logical to say they need to go back an obtain those documents.
Now, if these are illegals, at least they have documentation to prove they are who they said they are. This is a whole lot better than someone that is completely without documentation, as the term “undocumented” implies. As their status are currently illegal, policies can be made based on the existence of criminal record or lack thereof, or if they made good and went to college or served the country, to correct the current illegal status into a legal one. And if we find one to be unfit for conversion to legal status, deportation.
The first step in treatment is always the proper diagnosis.
A morbidly obese person will not seek treatment if he thinks he is just a little chub, slightly heavy, big boned, or just overweight. But proper diagnosis of clinical morbid obesity will frequently prompt action. Same with alcoholics, they have to admit they truly are alcoholics before help can take place. Saying they just drink a bit too much or they just party at little harder does nothing for them.
Same with calling illegals undocumented, it doesn’t help them at all, not one bit.
July 5, 2012 at 6:54 PM #747290CDMA ENG
Participant[quote=briansd1]The Supreme Court has spoken on the subject of SB1070.
All the AZ state police can do is investigate the immigration status of people apprehended, if there is reasonable suspicion. And even that provision is on hold pending further litigation. It’s doubtful that AZ can setup a fair mechanism to comply with that provision of the law.
Sorry guys, the court has ruled and my side has been vindicated.[/quote]
Surely you jest… Striking down a state law does not render the federal one useless.
Its illegal here… Its illegal in leftist france… It just fucking illegal everywhere in the world and they treat you as such excempt for this country… Period! In fact is one of the few things that you are acting illegally every minute you are engaged in it.
CE
CE
July 5, 2012 at 7:12 PM #747291briansd1
GuestWhat would the Founding Fathers think?
Back then, babies were born on farms and on the frontiers. Plenty of Anerican citizens were undocumented. There are still plenty today.
July 5, 2012 at 7:23 PM #747292Participant[quote=briansd1]What would the Founding Fathers think?
Back then, babies were born on farms and on the frontiers. Plenty of Anerican citizens were undocumented. There are still plenty today.[/quote]
The founding fathers also owned slaves and subscribed to the notion that blacks were 3/5 human.
There are plenty of americans born in america without any birth certificates? Citation please.
July 5, 2012 at 8:18 PM #747295blake
ParticipantIf you think this is an all time low, you better hope the hispanic votes gap betweeen Obama & Romney is as big as possible.
July 5, 2012 at 8:56 PM #747296Allan from Fallbrook
Participant[quote=briansd1]What would the Founding Fathers think?
Back then, babies were born on farms and on the frontiers. Plenty of Anerican citizens were undocumented. There are still plenty today.[/quote]
Brian: Seriously? Bubba, you really do NOT have a working grasp of American History, do you? Specifically, the writings of the Founding Fathers on citizenship, the right of franchise and maintaining the integrity of the Republic.
Also, the illogic of your assertion that plenty of “American citizens” (key words being American + Citizen) were born on farms and thus lacked documentation is laughable. This is now the logical litmus test for determining if someone is or is not an American citizen?
That reminds me of your counter-argument when I pointed out that nearly 3/4 of black babies are now born out of wedlock and you attempted to assert that, without welfare, it would be WORSE… At some point, logic has to intrude. Doesn’t it?
July 5, 2012 at 8:59 PM #747297Participant[quote=CDMA ENG]
Surely you jest… Striking down a state law does not render the federal one useless.CE[/quote]
CE: No, what renders the federal law(s) useless is the unwillingness of the feds to FULLY enforce them. Hence Arizona’s attempt to take them to task.
July 5, 2012 at 9:46 PM #747298Aecetia
Participant[quote=Allan from Fallbrook][quote=briansd1]What would the Founding Fathers think?
Back then, babies were born on farms and on the frontiers. Plenty of Anerican citizens were undocumented. There are still plenty today.[/quote]
Brian: Seriously? Bubba, you really do NOT have a working grasp of American History, do you? Specifically, the writings of the Founding Fathers on citizenship, the right of franchise and maintaining the integrity of the Republic.
Also, the illogic of your assertion that plenty of “American citizens” (key words being American + Citizen) were born on farms and thus lacked documentation is laughable. This is now the logical litmus test for determining if someone is or is not an American citizen?
That reminds me of your counter-argument when I pointed out that nearly 3/4 of black babies are now born out of wedlock and you attempted to assert that, without welfare, it would be WORSE… At some point, logic has to intrude. Doesn’t it?[/quote]
You should have your own talk radio show. This is very entertaining. Brian would be a caller, not the host.
July 5, 2012 at 10:13 PM #747300Participant[quote=Allan from Fallbrook][quote=CDMA ENG]
Surely you jest… Striking down a state law does not render the federal one useless.CE[/quote]
CE: No, what renders the federal law(s) useless is the unwillingness of the feds to FULLY enforce them. Hence Arizona’s attempt to take them to task.[/quote]
Actually this was my exact point in a different thread.
CE
July 5, 2012 at 10:52 PM #747301GuestWhat kind of documentation other than your group as witnesses If you were born on a wagon trail to the wild frontier of Eastern Tennessee?
What about the kids who were held captive in their parents’ basement?
Anyway, the supreme court ruled that AZ is wrong. Time to move on.
July 5, 2012 at 11:04 PM #747302Guest[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]
Brian: Where to begin? Okay, “the stream of immigrants” you reference was welcomed into the US, as we were undergoing a period of incredibly rapid expansion and needed said influx to maintain the pace of growth.
Concomitant with that, these immigrants were allowed into the country as part of a legal US government program. The immigrants you reference were, by and large, coming to this country LEGALLY. You’re now attempting to conflate LEGAL and ILLEGAL immigration, using the beneficial aspects to obscure the false equivalence [/quote]
Not conflating anything.
Pass an amnesty program and welcome immigrants already here. Then pass a new law to welcome new workers as we need them. Problem solved.
More people create more growth and we can again have a period of rapid expansion.
The immigrants here have already been absorbed into our economy. Make them citizens and embrace them into our society.
Allan, I know American history and there has always been opponents to immigration. But we know from history that immigrants from everywhere made us a better, richer country.
July 5, 2012 at 11:09 PM #747303Participant[quote=briansd1]What kind of documentation other than your group as witnesses If you were born on a wagon trail to the wild frontier of Eastern Tennessee?
What about the kids who were held captive in their parents’ basement?
Anyway, the supreme court ruled that AZ is wrong. Time to move on.[/quote]
I agree, let’s make this official:
UNDOCUMENTED: kids held captive in parents’ basement
ILLEGAL: immigrants that illegally entered the country or overstayed their visa
Time to move on, indeed!
July 6, 2012 at 12:58 AM #747307KSMountain
Participant[quote=briansd1]
We easily have enough room in America for a population of 1 billion.[/quote]
I think that would be appalling.It is not like the growth would be evenly distributed across our landmass. Using current trends as a guide, these folks would flock to the cities, a large percentage to cities on the coasts.
Do you think San Diego (or New York) is ready to handle a doubling or tripling of their population? Are the services ready? The roads, schools, sewers? Water?
What would the quality of life be like? I know Brian you are an advocate for high density vertical noisy downtown living, but not everyone shares your enamoration with that lifestyle.
Would we notice if the population density in San Diego doubled or tripled? How you be likin’ da 5-805 Merge now? It’s not like that would be an easy thing to fix.
You are right we demographically will need workers. Is it too much to ask that they come in nicely and let us know who they are?
Brian you often cite the Euros as some exemplar of refinement superior to us. Well, when I was on a train from Switzerland to Paris, once we were in French territory we were literally approached by French immigration authorities on the train who literally said “Papers please”. Is that ok for the French but not for us?
July 6, 2012 at 1:31 AM #747308Participant[quote=briansd1]What kind of documentation other than your group as witnesses If you were born on a wagon trail to the wild frontier of Eastern Tennessee?
What about the kids who were held captive in their parents’ basement?
Anyway, the supreme court ruled that AZ is wrong. Time to move on.[/quote]
I think you’re really reaching, to the point of illogic here. You have gone back too far in time to a situation that is not comparable. You are also comparing folks born “on the range” in no country, with folks who likely have a birth certificate from a different country.Even back in the Ellis Island days there was certainly documentation and an admission process.
It seems you (and others) are willing to sacrifice the rule of law in order to achieve your personal social/demographic objectives, and you’re also willing to obfuscate a bit about it.
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