ot. the other perspective

[millennial]

[quote=AN]
Tell them to take a deep breath and come back to you in a year. I didn’t vote for the guy, don’t even like the guy, but there’s no point is letting the media get you all worked up. The world is not going to end. Put trust in the system and decency of everyday American people. Don’t let the fear mongering of the media and the political class divide us.[/quote]
AN, I get your point about this is the great thing about America, the division of powers, democracy etc., but trust me it’s not the fear mongering media that’s making me worried it’s the actual words that came out of Trump’s mouth. It’s the fact that our country is at a point that we would vote for someone like him. I find it ominous that on the same night he was elected, exactly 78 years ago is when Kristallnacht happened aka The Night of the Broken Glass. Though unlike the time when Germany voted for Hitler, our economy is actually pretty good and getting better. We aren’t walking around the streets with wheelbarrows of money and getting paid every hour.

[Coronita]

[quote=FlyerInHi]Flu, yes it mattters who starred it. Democrats have moved to the center since Bill Clinton. Republicans have move way right.

And how so you think Trunp will make middle America better economically? You’re not talking handouts and government spinding on them, I hope[/quote]

Well here’s an example.

Dear China. We buy a lot of shit from you. You buy a lot of natural gas from everyone.

To continue to have free access to our consumer market, buy our natural gas we have a surplus of.

Oh, and how about that factory we want you to build in oklahoma?

Most other countries do the same thing to us….

That’s why qualcomm is setting up r&d there.

[millennial]

[quote=FlyerInHi]Flu, yes it mattters who starred it. Democrats have moved to the center since Bill Clinton. Republicans have move way right.

And how do you think Trunp will make middle America better economically? You’re not talking handouts and government spending on them, I hope.

The solution is to be richer and more successful than them on the coasts and make them see that their lifestyles are wrong. They need to see the truth so they get off their fat asses and pull themselves up by the booststraps. That is the conservative, tough love way of dealing with struggling people.[/quote]
I wish it was that easy, but we’re talking about hundreds of thousands of americans in places like the rust belt, and appalachia. I grew up there and know what it was like and it’s not easy getting through to these people. Most people get their mores, and outlook on life by their environment and people around them and people in these areas have a tendency to be like crabs and grab the ones trying to get out back in.

[FlyerInHi]

Flu, you really want a federal industrial policy.

But I don’t think free market thinkers will like it. Natural gas is a world commoditiy all selling at the same price no matter the origin. Easier for China to build a pipeline from Russia. I think they already signed a agreement.

It doesn’t matter that China has an industrial policy. We are the best and don’t need to learn from the rest of the world. Just let the free market lose; it will conquer all and provide us untold riches.

[Coronita]

[quote=FlyerInHi]Flu, you really want a federal industrial policy.

But I don’t think free market thinkers will like it. Natural gas is a world commoditiy all selling at the same price no matter the origin. Easier for China to build a pipeline from Russia. I think they already signed a agreement.[/quote]

Agreements can be rewritten.
We are really good about not honoring our agreements. We seem to have no problem trying to rewrite pension agreements too.

I am just waiting for the moment that the is renegotiated with China, and at the height of frustration, trump and company says some like “those dirty chinks…blah blah blah….”

Lol.

And then we can look at all the Asians that actually voted for him and say “what the fuck were you thinking?”

Sometimes the only way people learn, is the hard way.

For whatever fucked up reasons, there are actually people in China that like trump. They think he is not going to meddle in far east politics. China would want that and I am guessing they would want give trade concessions to the us if it meant no meddling in far east politics. Bad news for Taiwan, Japan, Korea, phillipines Vietnam, Malaysia, etc. I think that’s why the phillipines quickly buddies up with China to get on their good side. They know it’s coming.

That island dispute will be resolved…forcefully.

So that’s how the new world order will be split. US on the west, China on the east, and maybe Russia will try to reassert itself in their former Soviet satellites)

[FlyerInHi]

I absolutely agree with you flu.

But the USA has no history of a federal industrial policy. Free market thinkers don’t believe it’s needed or even works.

Of course the red states have no problem giving incentives to companies to move there.

Plus do you think that Americans would be happy working in a Chinese factory, under the direction of Chinese expat supervisors? I’m just being facetious here. It’s already happening at GE appliances. I read there are now Chinese restaurants nearby.

[no_such_reality]

[quote=flu]

So what’s the solution? Disenfranchise people? The people voted for this.
A lot of people. This is what a lot of people wanted. [/quote]

Well, technically, 59 million and change. Something around 0.25% more voted for Hillary (as of counting yesterday).

Of course, nearly twice the amount that were eligible to vote, didn’t. Yes, that’s right, right around 113 million didn’t vote.

Honestly, I’m not sure if that’s good or bad. And, I voted for Johnson, third party, no chance of winning in California hoping Libertarians would crest a perception threshold to become viable. Essentially, I didn’t vote either.

IMO, the solution starts with removing the freedom of speech, in the form of money from all aspects of politics. Not just campaigns, not just PACs, lobbying, etc. That’s the corporations and the unions. Let the unions run a campaign to get their members to individually send in the money. Strip the Koch brothers and Soros or their ability to drown the country in their message. Stop Monsanto from buying legislation and funding campaigns.

Until then, we will have protests, that look to me an awful lot like a staged PAC activity.

[an]

[quote=millennial]Though unlike the time when Germany voted for Hitler, our economy is actually pretty good and getting better.[/quote]I think that’s the problem right there. With globalism, economy is quite good for the upper half and the poor of the world. But it has left the poor of this country behind. I think a lot of free trader and globalism people fail to understand and sympathize with those who are adversely affected by globalism. I’m a big free trader who are quite sadden by both major parties backing away from it. But I also sympathize with those disenfranchised and understand their pain and understand why they voted the way they did.

You bring up Hitler in Germany, but I also like to point you to Communist China/Vietnam. The rich kept on getting richer and the cronyism there left a lot of the country behind. Then some eloquent person spoke of how great it would be if they (the poor and disenfranchised, left behind people) can live as good of a live as those corrupt politicians and rich people. And as they say, the rest is history. I’m seeing some similarities here, right now. Which is why we should put down the poor and uneducated who are affected by globalism. We should find way to help them for the sake of our nation’s stability.

Also keep in not everyone vote for him because of the wall. I think many vote for him base on pocket book issue. Why else would 29% of latino would vote for him?

[Anonymous]

[quote=flu]

So what’s the solution? Disenfranchise people?[/quote]

Whoa … there’s a helluva strawman. How did you go from what I said to that?

[quote]The people voted for this.[/quote]

They voted for “this.”

My point is the people who voted for Trump never had any tangible grasp on what “this” they voted for. It was all an outrageous mishmash of platitudes and vague feel-good plans.

I grew up in the Rust Belt, people have been talking about solutions like tariffs since the 1970s. It’s all been tried before. Trump’s ideas on the economy aren’t new, and they are pathetically simplistic.

There is cause and effect – impose tariffs and trading partners respond, business leaders will push back, trade wars ensue …

… but “the people” that voted for “this” simply choose to ignore any economic or even commonsense principle and voted for a myth.

[quote]We have to accept the result, as distasteful as it may be.[/quote]

Absolutely.

But we don’t dismiss the valid concerns of the people who voted the other way (there are literally more of them, btw) by simply “laughing” now that the “shoe is on the other foot” – whatever that actually means.

So you asked about the solution:

The solution is education, which I know is also a platitude. Tuesday showed us that a substantial portion of the electorate chooses to ignore basic history, economics, objective reasoning, and even common sense. They voted on emotion and blind hope and sometimes even bizarre rationalizations (have you tried to read anything BG writes about Trump?…)

One of the biggest threads of ignorance behind it is the whole “both sides are the same” reasoning. It’s simply not true. Fox News is not the mirror of the New York times or CNN. One side is purely a corporate-funded propaganda machine, the other is journalism with a transparent editorial bias.

Too many people have fooled themselves into thinking there is wisdom in the “both sides are the same” proposition, as if were some ying and yang that maintains order trough some mystical force. It’s not enlightenment.

Rupert Murdoch and is corporate buddies are playing them.

[Anonymous]

[quote=FlyerInHi]Flu, you really want a federal industrial policy.

But I don’t think free market thinkers will like it. Natural gas is a world commoditiy all selling at the same price no matter the origin. Easier for China to build a pipeline from Russia. I think they already signed a agreement.

It doesn’t matter that China has an industrial policy. We are the best and don’t need to learn from the rest of the world. Just let the free market lose; it will conquer all and provide us untold riches.[/quote]

This is correct.

Many of Trump’s ideas are basically the elements of a command economy, which has much in common with socialism.

You can’t do it without very strong government regulations that restrict free trade. Flu’s natural gas example is Exhibit A.

Apparently nobody bothered to think this through….

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=harvey]

So you asked about the solution:

The solution is education, which I know is also a platitude. Tuesday showed us that a substantial portion of the electorate chooses to ignore basic history, economics, objective reasoning, and even common sense. They voted on emotion and blind hope and sometimes even bizarre rationalizations (have you tried to read anything BG writes about Trump?…)

One of the biggest threads of ignorance behind it is the whole “both sides are the same” reasoning. It’s simply not true. Fox News is not the mirror of the New York times or CNN. One side is purely a corporate-funded propaganda machine, the other is journalism with a transparent editorial bias.

Too many people have fooled themselves into thinking there is wisdom in the “both sides are the same” proposition, as if were some ying and yang that maintains order trough some mystical force. It’s not enlightenment.

Rupert Murdoch and is corporate buddies are playing them.[/quote]

That’s right on.

I would say that the people who bought those feel good badass America-first platitudes don’t really deserve sympathy, not after that voted against their interests for republicans. Let them take those platitudes to the bank.

No job is guaranteed. No lifestyle is guaranteed. We have a free labor market. People need to learn responsibility to acquire marketable skills and move to where the jobs are. Isn’t that the same thing people were telling people left behind in decaying in inner cities. Now the shoe is on the other foot. Big cities are coming back and the industrial town are decaying.

[Coronita]

[quote=FlyerInHi]I absolutely agree with you flu.

But the USA has no history of a federal industrial policy. Free market thinkers don’t believe it’s needed or even works.

Of course the red states have no problem giving incentives to companies to move there.

Plus do you think that Americans would be happy working in a Chinese factory, under the direction of Chinese expat supervisors? I’m just being facetious here. It’s already happening at GE appliances. I read there are now Chinese restaurants nearby.[/quote]

I don’t really think most americans care who the boss is as long as the paycheck is good and the boss works within the appropriate laws and customs/culture we have in the U.S. And typically, foreign companies that set up shops here do just that.

Most americans only start to care what someone looks like and what race they are when they have no job.

If China negotiated a trade deal with the US like I said, America will be happy China will be happy, at the expense of all the other nations Asia.

America wins because export business goes up, US find jobs at foreign owned factories, and that means more money for americans to spend. American workers are happy because they are employed, and so they probably won’t care about anything else that happens in the Far East. Trump would look like a freaking genius, because not only will he come across as negotiating tough with china and winning, as an added bonus, he’ll say he can cut military spending since the US won’t need to patrol the far east as much anymore. Win-win for the U.S.

China will come out of this winning because while they’ll need to sacrifice a little on their export business and spend a little on setting up factories in the U.S., they’ll win a lot on the natural resources they import at much more competitive prices relative to all the other nations. China will no longer need to worry about U.S. meddling in the far east, and they can continue to build up their presence to claim the disputed island filled with natural resources. With the US out of the picture, no one will be able to contest them. Russia won’t step in, obviously. And neither Japan nor Korea nor any other nation in the east have militarized in such a way to really get into an armed conflict with China. And the U.S. certainly will not step in, if US-China trade relations are so tied together.

For Trump, this will be a business transaction. And a very good business transaction. It will be for the US and China. Everyone else gets the shaft.
I’m not saying this would be a good thing the world in general. Just saying what I think will happen. China doesn’t have any interest into getting into any military conflict with the U.S. It’s interesting that Nixon, a Republican, was the guy responsible for opening the pandora’s box to China…And it’s even more ironic that now Trump, another republican, probably will end up building more.

Nixon shafted Taiwan when Taiwan was kicked out of the UN and replaced by China. I think what we’ll see is something similar in which US-Japan/ US-Korea/ US-Taiwan relations get shafted at the expense of US-China relations.

It’s interesting to see which leaders of nations called Trump to congratulate him. That says a lot about what those nations were hoping for.

Noticeably absent? UK, Germany, Japan, Korea….

[zk]

[quote=njtosd] I don’t remember Supreme Court justices threatening to move to New Zealand, or people “protesting” (aka whining) in the streets over the presidential outcome in ’08 or ’12. I think it’s a matter of bruised ego for a lot of the intellectual types.[/quote]

I agree that protesting is ridiculous.

But to say that a “bruised ego” is the reason for it is more ridiculous. Bruised ego isn’t the problem. This is the problem:

[quote=zk]
In addition to the xenophobia and the misogyny, there are all these shocking and disgusting things:
His wanting nuclear weapons to proliferate.
His insistence that the military will follow illegal orders if he gives them.
His threats not to honor our NATO obligations.
His profound ignorance of foreign affairs (“Putin won’t go into Ukraine,” didn’t know what the nuclear triad is).
His desire to commit war crimes (killing terrorists’ families).
His threats not to pay our debts in full.
His birtherism.
His encouragement of Russian hacking.
His encouragement of violence against protesters and against Clinton.
His constant lying of a type and on a scale not seen in any previous presidential candidate (nor in most humans).
Each of these should cause shock and disgust. Put together, they’re so horrific that to not be shocked and disgusted by them indicates to me willful ignorance (or, more likely, a charade, as I explain in the last paragraph). And they don’t even include smaller reasons, many of them quite large, such as his completely unrealistic deportation force/wall ideas, his fascist tendencies, his claim that America is in a death spiral, his climate change denial, his refusal to release his tax returns, his business failures and his stiffing of thousands of workers, his lack of detailed policies, his draft dodging, his scam “university,” his abuse of his foundation, his desire to police speech, his claim that Obama founded ISIS, his frequently incoherent speech and general lack of intellect and knowledge, his refusal to admit/learn from/apologize for his mistakes, his demagoguery, his desire to abolish the Geneva Convention, and his bullying temperament.
And none of that even includes what is, in my opinion, his biggest, most dangerous flaw:
He can’t take an insult. He attacks anyone who says anything marginally negative about him. How is that going to work? The American president (every American president) is constantly being told his ideas and actions are bad ideas and actions. By citizens, by the news media, by foreign leaders, by other political parties, by people in his own party. By senators, congressmen, governors. Basically by everybody. Donald Trump, if elected president, will have to (because that’s who he is) attack all the people who say bad things about him. How is that going to work? A foreign leader says something negative about a Trump proposal or action. Trump attacks that leader. That leader condemns Trump’s attack. Trump gets angry about that and attacks again. Etc. How is that going to work? How is it going to work to give the nuclear codes to a thin-skinned, ill-tempered, petulant, foolish, ignorant, vindictive, disturbed child?[/quote]

[FlyerInHi]

That’s an interesting view, flu.

So we would sell our natural resources to China at a preferential rate In exchange for China setting up factories here. That’s a lot of command and control of private enterprise.

What about the free market of commodities? Would government not be taking from private owners of those commodities.

[Anonymous]

You can speculate for as many paragraphs as you like.

The only way that jobs are going to come back to the industrial midwest are through some combination of:

1) Dramatically lower wages
2) Trade barriers
3) Elimination of environmental protection

#1 accomplishes nothing

#2 hurts more than it helps

#3 sounds tolerable until you’ve lived it first-hand, and still requires 1 and 2 to be effective

[Author]

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