ot. the other perspective

[scaredyclassic]

my wife said something that resonated with me all day:

“i guess this is how all the republicans felt when obama got elected”.

helps me understand. i feel nervous, not particularly trusting, feel like its just not quite safe and right. like antiobama people felt. i can empathize with them more

[njtosd]

I don’t think it’s the same – there weren’t protests like those that are happening tonight. I think Hillary’s vocal supporters thought they were too smart to lose. Their sense of self has been jarred. I find the protests interesting. What are people protesting? Are they saying the election was unfair? They’re not really protesting, actually, I think it’s just group griping.

[FlyerInHi]

I don’t think they are Hillary voters protesting. They are anti trump folks who didn’t vote

[Anonymous]

Trump is pretty unique as president. He’ll be the first president to never have any government or military experience.

Obama was an established politician from a major party. Historically speaking, there wasn’t much about him that was dramatically different from many other presidents. Except of course he was a Kenyan and a Muslim.

But what has people nervous is that Trump has actually said he’d do some pretty outrageous things. He seems to have no regard for the rules. His “first 100 days in office” plan is essentially claiming he’s some kind of superhero.

[millennial]

That’s funny. I said the same exact thing. They must have been freaked out with a black president named Obama.

[njtosd]

[quote=millennial]That’s funny. I said the same exact thing. They must have been freaked out with a black president named Obama.[/quote]

Being unhappy with an outcome is not the same as being “freaked out”. (This is the first time one of your posts has lived up to your screen name, in my opinion. ) I don’t remember Supreme Court justices threatening to move to New Zealand, or people “protesting” (aka whining) in the streets over the presidential outcome in ’08 or ’12. I think it’s a matter of bruised ego for a lot of the intellectual types.

[millennial]

[quote=njtosd][quote=millennial]That’s funny. I said the same exact thing. They must have been freaked out with a black president named Obama.[/quote]

Being unhappy with an outcome is not the same as being “freaked out”. (This is the first time one of your posts has lived up to your screen name, in my opinion. ) I don’t remember Supreme Court justices threatening to move to New Zealand, or people “protesting” (aka whining) in the streets over the presidential outcome in ’08 or ’12. I think it’s a matter of bruised ego for a lot of the intellectual types.[/quote]
I have no idea what you mean about “living up to my screen name” but I think there are legitimately a lot of people actually freaked out. Maybe not the “intellectual types” you speak of but when I walk into my office and see reactions of Mexican American coworkers they are actually scared of the outcome of this election. This is real to them, maybe you wouldn’t consider them as the intellectual type but they are “freaked out”. Or how do I respond to Muslim Americans who are worried about getting deported based on their religion? Tell me how do I respond to them? Maybe for intellectual types like you and bearish girl this is a game, but for many Americans who this may affect this actually may mean something.

For intellectuals like my friends and I we are also freaked out to the point where it’s hard to sleep at night. The ability for him to control not only the executive and legislative branches but also the judicial is a big deal and based on what he has said you should definitely be scared.

[an]

[quote=millennial]Tell me how do I respond to them?[/quote]
Tell them to take a deep breath and come back to you in a year. I didn’t vote for the guy, don’t even like the guy, but there’s no point is letting the media get you all worked up. The world is not going to end. Put trust in the system and decency of everyday American people. Don’t let the fear mongering of the media and the political class divide us.

[Anonymous]

[quote=AN]I didn’t vote for the guy, don’t even like the guy, but there’s no point is letting the media get you all worked up.[/quote]

The media? People are responding to Trumps own words, spoken and written. His actual platform.

It’s right there on his website, no media filter is involved.

Nobody is saying “the world will end” – that’s your words and your strawman. I am saying that many Americans will lose civil liberties and economic opportunities because of their race and/or religion.

[quote]Put trust in the system and decency of everyday American people.[/quote]

I agree with the sentiment but if you didn’t notice, that approach failed spectacularly on Tuesday.

[quote]Don’t let the fear mongering of the media and the political class divide us.[/quote]

LOL, “the political class” – now there’s irony. The term the “political class” was created by the media. It’s propaganda and you are obviously falling for it.

What Trump wants to do is right there in his platform. Did you ever read it, or did you just get the summary from “the media.”

[Coronita]

[quote=harvey][quote=AN]I didn’t vote for the guy, don’t even like the guy, but there’s no point is letting the media get you all worked up.[/quote]

The media? People are responding to Trumps own words, spoken and written. His actual platform.

It’s right there on his website, no media filter is involved.

Nobody is saying “the world will end” – that’s your words and your strawman. I am saying that many Americans will lose civil liberties and economic opportunities because of their race and/or religion.

[quote]Put trust in the system and decency of everyday American people.[/quote]

I agree with the sentiment but if you didn’t notice, that approach failed spectacularly on Tuesday.

[quote]Don’t let the fear mongering of the media and the political class divide us.[/quote]

LOL, “the political class” – now there’s irony. The term the “political class” was created by the media. It’s propaganda and you are obviously falling for it.

What Trump wants to do is right there in his platform. Did you ever read it, or did you just get the summary from “the media.”[/quote]

So what’s the solution? Disenfranchise people? The people voted for this.
A lot of people. This is what a lot of people wanted. Even if it isn’t a clear majority, it’s enough in this country to consider it to be so. This is how are system works, even if the outcome is distasteful.

Non-democratic foreign countries are probably laughing their asses off about this. Because here we are trying to teach democracy to foreign countries, here our democracy puts a character in office that people don’t like. Now what?

Did you read what ISIS is saying? They are happy with Trump because they think Trump with throw this country into civil unrest (they said civil war)..

We have to accept the result, as distasteful as it may be. Short of some external factor, like the Russians tampering with votes which didn’t happen….Challenging it would be like challenge the fundamental system we have. Our system is good in that it resets every 4 years or 8 years if things get bad.

[no_such_reality]

[quote=flu]

So what’s the solution? Disenfranchise people? The people voted for this.
A lot of people. This is what a lot of people wanted. [/quote]

Well, technically, 59 million and change. Something around 0.25% more voted for Hillary (as of counting yesterday).

Of course, nearly twice the amount that were eligible to vote, didn’t. Yes, that’s right, right around 113 million didn’t vote.

Honestly, I’m not sure if that’s good or bad. And, I voted for Johnson, third party, no chance of winning in California hoping Libertarians would crest a perception threshold to become viable. Essentially, I didn’t vote either.

IMO, the solution starts with removing the freedom of speech, in the form of money from all aspects of politics. Not just campaigns, not just PACs, lobbying, etc. That’s the corporations and the unions. Let the unions run a campaign to get their members to individually send in the money. Strip the Koch brothers and Soros or their ability to drown the country in their message. Stop Monsanto from buying legislation and funding campaigns.

Until then, we will have protests, that look to me an awful lot like a staged PAC activity.

[Anonymous]

[quote=flu]

So what’s the solution? Disenfranchise people?[/quote]

Whoa … there’s a helluva strawman. How did you go from what I said to that?

[quote]The people voted for this.[/quote]

They voted for “this.”

My point is the people who voted for Trump never had any tangible grasp on what “this” they voted for. It was all an outrageous mishmash of platitudes and vague feel-good plans.

I grew up in the Rust Belt, people have been talking about solutions like tariffs since the 1970s. It’s all been tried before. Trump’s ideas on the economy aren’t new, and they are pathetically simplistic.

There is cause and effect – impose tariffs and trading partners respond, business leaders will push back, trade wars ensue …

… but “the people” that voted for “this” simply choose to ignore any economic or even commonsense principle and voted for a myth.

[quote]We have to accept the result, as distasteful as it may be.[/quote]

Absolutely.

But we don’t dismiss the valid concerns of the people who voted the other way (there are literally more of them, btw) by simply “laughing” now that the “shoe is on the other foot” – whatever that actually means.

So you asked about the solution:

The solution is education, which I know is also a platitude. Tuesday showed us that a substantial portion of the electorate chooses to ignore basic history, economics, objective reasoning, and even common sense. They voted on emotion and blind hope and sometimes even bizarre rationalizations (have you tried to read anything BG writes about Trump?…)

One of the biggest threads of ignorance behind it is the whole “both sides are the same” reasoning. It’s simply not true. Fox News is not the mirror of the New York times or CNN. One side is purely a corporate-funded propaganda machine, the other is journalism with a transparent editorial bias.

Too many people have fooled themselves into thinking there is wisdom in the “both sides are the same” proposition, as if were some ying and yang that maintains order trough some mystical force. It’s not enlightenment.

Rupert Murdoch and is corporate buddies are playing them.

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=harvey]

So you asked about the solution:

The solution is education, which I know is also a platitude. Tuesday showed us that a substantial portion of the electorate chooses to ignore basic history, economics, objective reasoning, and even common sense. They voted on emotion and blind hope and sometimes even bizarre rationalizations (have you tried to read anything BG writes about Trump?…)

One of the biggest threads of ignorance behind it is the whole “both sides are the same” reasoning. It’s simply not true. Fox News is not the mirror of the New York times or CNN. One side is purely a corporate-funded propaganda machine, the other is journalism with a transparent editorial bias.

Too many people have fooled themselves into thinking there is wisdom in the “both sides are the same” proposition, as if were some ying and yang that maintains order trough some mystical force. It’s not enlightenment.

Rupert Murdoch and is corporate buddies are playing them.[/quote]

That’s right on.

I would say that the people who bought those feel good badass America-first platitudes don’t really deserve sympathy, not after that voted against their interests for republicans. Let them take those platitudes to the bank.

No job is guaranteed. No lifestyle is guaranteed. We have a free labor market. People need to learn responsibility to acquire marketable skills and move to where the jobs are. Isn’t that the same thing people were telling people left behind in decaying in inner cities. Now the shoe is on the other foot. Big cities are coming back and the industrial town are decaying.

[millennial]

[quote=AN]
Tell them to take a deep breath and come back to you in a year. I didn’t vote for the guy, don’t even like the guy, but there’s no point is letting the media get you all worked up. The world is not going to end. Put trust in the system and decency of everyday American people. Don’t let the fear mongering of the media and the political class divide us.[/quote]
AN, I get your point about this is the great thing about America, the division of powers, democracy etc., but trust me it’s not the fear mongering media that’s making me worried it’s the actual words that came out of Trump’s mouth. It’s the fact that our country is at a point that we would vote for someone like him. I find it ominous that on the same night he was elected, exactly 78 years ago is when Kristallnacht happened aka The Night of the Broken Glass. Though unlike the time when Germany voted for Hitler, our economy is actually pretty good and getting better. We aren’t walking around the streets with wheelbarrows of money and getting paid every hour.

[an]

[quote=millennial]Though unlike the time when Germany voted for Hitler, our economy is actually pretty good and getting better.[/quote]I think that’s the problem right there. With globalism, economy is quite good for the upper half and the poor of the world. But it has left the poor of this country behind. I think a lot of free trader and globalism people fail to understand and sympathize with those who are adversely affected by globalism. I’m a big free trader who are quite sadden by both major parties backing away from it. But I also sympathize with those disenfranchised and understand their pain and understand why they voted the way they did.

You bring up Hitler in Germany, but I also like to point you to Communist China/Vietnam. The rich kept on getting richer and the cronyism there left a lot of the country behind. Then some eloquent person spoke of how great it would be if they (the poor and disenfranchised, left behind people) can live as good of a live as those corrupt politicians and rich people. And as they say, the rest is history. I’m seeing some similarities here, right now. Which is why we should put down the poor and uneducated who are affected by globalism. We should find way to help them for the sake of our nation’s stability.

Also keep in not everyone vote for him because of the wall. I think many vote for him base on pocket book issue. Why else would 29% of latino would vote for him?

[millennial]

[quote=AN]
Also keep in not everyone vote for him because of the wall. I think many vote for him base on pocket book issue. Why else would 29% of latino would vote for him?[/quote]

Well I can’t speak for the 29% of latino voters, but I think that the majority of the votes were made of anger and hate. A lot of it came from poor whites in rural areas, the rustbelt, and the Appalachian states. These are the ones working in coal mines, truck stops, and farms who have been poor for generations. These are the people who watch TV and hear about how “black lives matter” and thinking the rest of America forgot about them. Yes, we can easily say pull up your bootstraps but understandably they kind of have a reason to be angry and want change. Unfortunately I don’t think they realize that Trump doesn’t care about them and the change that he wants will not make their lives any better.

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=millennial][quote=AN]
Also keep in not everyone vote for him because of the wall. I think many vote for him base on pocket book issue. Why else would 29% of latino would vote for him?[/quote]

Well I can’t speak for the 29% of latino voters, but I think that the majority of the votes were made of anger and hate. A lot of it came from poor whites in rural areas, the rustbelt, and the Appalachian states. These are the ones working in coal mines, truck stops, and farms who have been poor for generations. These are the people who watch TV and hear about how “black lives matter” and thinking the rest of America forgot about them. Yes, we can easily say pull up your bootstraps but understandably they kind of have a reason to be angry and want change. Unfortunately I don’t think they realize that Trump doesn’t care about them and the change that he wants will not make their lives any better.[/quote]

Millenial, I talked about this very issue with a friend earlier today. She thought I was mean.

But those Trump supporters voted against their own interests… They are already upset and cannot be won back. So why bother understanding them? Let those ingrate SOBs eat the Republican platitudes and pull themselves up by the bootstraps.

We discuss Black Lives Matter and those emotionally needy people feel ignored? WTF? Issues are not mutually exclusive.

As someone who cares about social equity, I’d rather put my energy in people who appreciate and will vote for my party.

[an]

[quote=millennial]For intellectuals like my friends and I we are also freaked out to the point where it’s hard to sleep at night. The ability for him to control not only the executive and legislative branches but also the judicial is a big deal and based on what he has said you should definitely be scared.[/quote]Take a deep breath. It’ll all be OK. You’re more likely to be killed by a car crash than the thing you’re fearing coming true. Democrats controlled 2 out of the 3 and got everything Obama wanted for 2 years. The Republican were saying to world will end too 8 years ago. Yet, here we are, we’re still OK.

[zk]

[quote=njtosd] I don’t remember Supreme Court justices threatening to move to New Zealand, or people “protesting” (aka whining) in the streets over the presidential outcome in ’08 or ’12. I think it’s a matter of bruised ego for a lot of the intellectual types.[/quote]

I agree that protesting is ridiculous.

But to say that a “bruised ego” is the reason for it is more ridiculous. Bruised ego isn’t the problem. This is the problem:

[quote=zk]
In addition to the xenophobia and the misogyny, there are all these shocking and disgusting things:
His wanting nuclear weapons to proliferate.
His insistence that the military will follow illegal orders if he gives them.
His threats not to honor our NATO obligations.
His profound ignorance of foreign affairs (“Putin won’t go into Ukraine,” didn’t know what the nuclear triad is).
His desire to commit war crimes (killing terrorists’ families).
His threats not to pay our debts in full.
His birtherism.
His encouragement of Russian hacking.
His encouragement of violence against protesters and against Clinton.
His constant lying of a type and on a scale not seen in any previous presidential candidate (nor in most humans).
Each of these should cause shock and disgust. Put together, they’re so horrific that to not be shocked and disgusted by them indicates to me willful ignorance (or, more likely, a charade, as I explain in the last paragraph). And they don’t even include smaller reasons, many of them quite large, such as his completely unrealistic deportation force/wall ideas, his fascist tendencies, his claim that America is in a death spiral, his climate change denial, his refusal to release his tax returns, his business failures and his stiffing of thousands of workers, his lack of detailed policies, his draft dodging, his scam “university,” his abuse of his foundation, his desire to police speech, his claim that Obama founded ISIS, his frequently incoherent speech and general lack of intellect and knowledge, his refusal to admit/learn from/apologize for his mistakes, his demagoguery, his desire to abolish the Geneva Convention, and his bullying temperament.
And none of that even includes what is, in my opinion, his biggest, most dangerous flaw:
He can’t take an insult. He attacks anyone who says anything marginally negative about him. How is that going to work? The American president (every American president) is constantly being told his ideas and actions are bad ideas and actions. By citizens, by the news media, by foreign leaders, by other political parties, by people in his own party. By senators, congressmen, governors. Basically by everybody. Donald Trump, if elected president, will have to (because that’s who he is) attack all the people who say bad things about him. How is that going to work? A foreign leader says something negative about a Trump proposal or action. Trump attacks that leader. That leader condemns Trump’s attack. Trump gets angry about that and attacks again. Etc. How is that going to work? How is it going to work to give the nuclear codes to a thin-skinned, ill-tempered, petulant, foolish, ignorant, vindictive, disturbed child?[/quote]

[njtosd]

[quote=zk][quote=njtosd] I don’t remember Supreme Court justices threatening to move to New Zealand, or people “protesting” (aka whining) in the streets over the presidential outcome in ’08 or ’12. I think it’s a matter of bruised ego for a lot of the intellectual types.[/quote]

I agree that protesting is ridiculous.

But to say that a “bruised ego” is the reason for it is more ridiculous. Bruised ego isn’t the problem. This is the problem:

[quote=zk]
In addition to the xenophobia and the misogyny, there are all these shocking and disgusting things:
His wanting nuclear weapons to proliferate.
His insistence that the military will follow illegal orders if he gives them.
His threats not to honor our NATO obligations.
His profound ignorance of foreign affairs (“Putin won’t go into Ukraine,” didn’t know what the nuclear triad is).
His desire to commit war crimes (killing terrorists’ families).
His threats not to pay our debts in full.
His birtherism.
. . . .

[/quote][/quote]

I don’t think I made myself as clear as I thought – both you and millennial have interpreted my description of “intellectual types” as meaning that they are actually intellectuals. I meant it in a somewhat pejorative sense. But before I say anything – I ended up not voting for Trump or Clinton.

There are very few Americans who voted for Clinton who are familiar with all of the issues that you raise. There are many, many who voted for Clinton because they believe that people who backed Clinton were smarter, cooler and simply better than those who voted for Trump – without reference to issues. To be fair, the Democratic party promoted that position with its party line, celebrities and references to deplorables. (I have many family members who fall into that category – maybe that explains my annoyance. ) Those are the ones that I refer to as “intellectual types”. They feel like they got beaten by their inferiors – that is the bruised ego to which I refer. ( I feel a similar fraction voted for Trump for equally uninformed reasons – the make America great again sort of superficial national pride and abortion gibberish. But that’s not the topic we’re addressing right now.)

My husband is a car guy. To analogize – a lot of people buy expensive cars because they appreciate the engineering – but many more buy them because of ego driven issues. I admire people who have well informed viewpoints – really regardless of the viewpoint. But a lot of this argument is about ego – and I think most elections are driven by emotions not logic.

[Anonymous]

[quote=njtosd]There are very few Americans who voted for Clinton who are familiar with all of the issues that you raise. There are many, many who voted for Clinton because they believe that people who backed Clinton were smarter, cooler and simply better than those who voted for Trump – without reference to issues. To be fair, the Democratic party promoted that position with its party line, celebrities and references to deplorables. (I have many family members who fall into that category – maybe that explains my annoyance. ) Those are the ones that I refer to as “intellectual types”. They feel like they got beaten by their inferiors – that is the bruised ego to which I refer. ( I feel a similar fraction voted for Trump for equally uninformed reasons – the make America great again sort of superficial national pride and abortion gibberish. But that’s not the topic we’re addressing right now.)[/quote]

You mean making generalizations about vaguely-defined groups is not a good thing?

[zk]

[quote=njtosd]
There are very few Americans who voted for Clinton who are familiar with all of the issues that you raise.
[/quote]

That’s probably true.

[quote=njtosd]

There are many, many who voted for Clinton because they believe that people who backed Clinton were smarter, cooler and simply better than those who voted for Trump – without reference to issues. To be fair, the Democratic party promoted that position with its party line, celebrities and references to deplorables. (I have many family members who fall into that category – maybe that explains my annoyance. )

[/quote]

I haven’t seen that at all. Most people I know who voted for Hillary voted for her for one of these reasons: 1.They’re democrats and they always vote democrat. 2.They find trump repulsive, what with all of his misogyny, xenophobia, racism, and general douchebaggery. They might not know where he stands on NATO, but they can easily see that he’s a total jackass. 3. (a much smaller number than the first two) They really like Hillary.

And I would think the reasons for the protests are pretty much all about number 2 above.

[quote=njtosd]
But a lot of this argument is about ego –

[/quote]

If by, “this argument” you’re referring to “why people are protesting,” I disagree. I don’t see it. I think they’re protesting because they’re angry and disgusted that we’ve elected a misogynist, racist, xenophobic douchebag as president.

[quote=njtosd]

and I think most elections are driven by emotions not logic.[/quote]

Definitely agree.

[njtosd]

[quote=zk]
If by, “this argument” you’re referring to “why people are protesting,” I disagree. I don’t see it. I think they’re protesting because they’re angry and disgusted that we’ve elected a misogynist, racist, xenophobic douchebag as president.

[quote=njtosd]

and I think most elections are driven by emotions not logic.[/quote]

Definitely agree.[/quote]

I think you and I are saying something of the same thing. To say it in another way, Clinton voters believe that Trump supporters are ok with all of the bad things that you mention and they are unhappy and disgusted that they will be governed by this deplorable person because of the deplorable voters. Or maybe I’m missing something . .

Re: protests – In my mind, one protests illegal actions by the government. Excessive exercise of government power. Excessive taxation. Utility issues. In other words – things that are being done by the government or with government assistance that are unfair and beyond its reasonable exercise of power.

A protest, in my opinion, isn’t a way to express your extreme disappointment or disdain for something. It’s not a method of sharing with the world the depth of your personal unhappiness about, for example, your team losing (or in the case of the 1984 Tigers, winning) a major sporting event. In other words – protesters generally have a result that they desire and can identify. What is the goal of these protests? To overturn the election? That can’t be done and based on current facts shouldn’t be done. So they are snarling traffic and spewing rhetoric for what? To tell the 4 humans in the world who don’t already know it that this was a very contentious election and that the marchers don’t like the outcome? I think that message has pretty much made it’s way around.

[millennial]

[quote=njtosd]
Re: protests – In my mind, one protests illegal actions by the government. Excessive exercise of government power. Excessive taxation. Utility issues. In other words – things that are being done by the government or with government assistance that are unfair and beyond its reasonable exercise of power.

A protest, in my opinion, isn’t a way to express your extreme disappointment or disdain for something. It’s not a method of sharing with the world the depth of your personal unhappiness about, for example, your team losing (or in the case of the 1984 Tigers, winning) a major sporting event. In other words – protesters generally have a result that they desire and can identify. What is the goal of these protests? To overturn the election? That can’t be done and based on current facts shouldn’t be done. So they are snarling traffic and spewing rhetoric for what? To tell the 4 humans in the world who don’t already know it that this was a very contentious election and that the marchers don’t like the outcome? I think that message has pretty much made it’s way around.[/quote]

This is the Merriam Webster Definition which pretty much says your definition is wrong. Nowhere does it say that a protest requires a goal, but simply a public demonstration of disapproval. Are you making your own definitions up again? Sorry for not being able to understand what you mean. It’s probably due to you changing the meanings of words.

Full Definition of protest
1
: a solemn declaration of opinion and usually of dissent: as
a : a sworn declaration that payment of a note or bill has been refused and that all responsible signers or debtors are liable for resulting loss or damage
b : a declaration made especially before or while paying that a tax is illegal and that payment is not voluntary
2
: the act of objecting or a gesture of disapproval ; especially : a usually organized public demonstration of disapproval
3
: a complaint, objection, or display of unwillingness usually to an idea or a course of action
4
: an objection made to an official or a governing body of a sport

[Anonymous]

Yes, of course it’s a protest according to the damn dictionary.

But nj’s point is more substantial: These protests are nonsense.

Anyone protesting the outcome of fairly won election doesn’t understand how democracy works.

[millennial]

No I get it. I’m just saying that she uses these terms that are based on her definition (for instance intellectual and protest) which makes it difficult to understand her initial post. Using her definition they would not be considered protesting…end of story because there is no goal. But according to mine they are protesting and it’s because they want to show and express their personal emotions and display it as a unified front to those in the south and Midwest. This in my mind is a protest.

[njtosd]

[quote=millennial]No I get it. I’m just saying that she uses these terms that are based on her definition (for instance intellectual and protest) which makes it difficult to understand her initial post. Using her definition they would not be considered protesting…end of story because there is no goal. But according to mine they are protesting and it’s because they want to show and express their personal emotions and display it as a unified front to those in the south and Midwest. This in my mind is a protest.[/quote]

Funny – in your last sentence you used the words “In my mind”, which are exactly the words I used at the beginning of the first paragraph that you quoted. I started the second paragraph of that quote with the words “in my opinion”. And I guess I should have said “political protest” – I am quite aware of the fact that one can protest against the quality of restaurant service, the theme for 6th grade promotion, the winner on America’s Got Talent or whatever. I never purported to define anything.

Last I checked I was still entitled to my opinion just as you are entitled to yours. IN MY OPINION (and to paraphrase a line from A Fish Called Wanda) calling these marches political protests is an insult to what IN MY OPINION are true political protests, such as those relating to abuses by the police, our continued participation in various wars or even CA’s policies on admission of in state vs out of state vs international students.

These people are grieving and mourning IN MY OPINION, and people don’t usually walk through the streets to do it. For some reason IN MY OPINION they equate a disappointing albeit fair loss with somehow being cheated by someone. Is that better?

[millennial]

My last sentence when I used “in my mind” was used to show that “in my mind” my definition was the standard definition. Regardless, this is a pointless argument since it seems you are unable to understand the problem of creating new words, or definitions of existing words when making a point. IN MY OPINION if you want to discuss a topic, you should first start with the standard definition before creating or mutating existing ones.

[Coronita]

There’s nothing to protest. People voted. For some of us, our choice didn’t win, based on our country’s system (ok, arguably this wasn’t a majority win, but rather a electorate win), but it’s still our democratic system. Maybe we should rally to try to get rid of the electoral college. Meanwhile, wait another 2 years for the mid-term. Maybe people won’t take their voting rights so lightly next time. Move on.

The political parties have both contributed to our constant left and right wild swings. Because our country, as a whole, has become less tolerant of compromising, we are left with the bizzaro scenario in which political winds change drastically one way and then the other. We can try to figure out who started it, but at this point, does it really matter? It’s like having two kids that were horseplaying and broke your favorite lamp, and the two kids both pointing fingers at each other saying they other one did it. You don’t really care who started it, and you end up grounding both kids because both of them contributed to your now broken lamp.

Ironically, if Bernie had been the nominee, he probably would have beaten Trump. I don’t think most of the solid blue and blue leaning states would have changed their vote had it been Bernie. I believe in most of the swing states that Hillary lost, Bernie beat both Hillary AND Trump. So, I’d say, part of the blame of what how we got to where we are here is also because of the DNC. I’m not sure how I would have felt about Bernie versus Trump, frankly…

Frankly, I’m sick of it. At this point, I want Trump to restore some jobs/economy/sanity to middle america, despite how despicable a few of his supporters (and emphasis here is some, not all) are. And I’m willing to give him a chance to do this. Frankly, we don’t have a choice anyway. I hope the insane things he have said was more of a theatrical performance. I hope over the course of the past year, he acknowledges how horribly he as treated women in the past, and while because of his personality will never publicly apologize, I’d like to see, through his actions, to amend for his previous deeds. I’d also like to see that now that he has won, we don’t waste any more ridiculous time about talking about “locking Hillary up”…(Personally if I were Obama, since his legacy is pretty much being undone, he might as well give the finger and just give Hillary a pardon…So at least we can stop wasting time on this thing). One thing I do agree with Trump is Congress should be term limited.

If middle america isn’t happy, this nation will never be happy, and they will always have a voice, and this constant polarization will continue, and probably grow worse and worse. If middle america has a better financial future, there’s a bigger chance they can care less of everything else that goes on that is insane from the right..And they’ll leave me alone…

Sometimes you just have to give a little in order to gain a lot back in the long run…Well, at least that’s what I’m trying to tell myself. Lol…Meanwhile, I think I’m going to restrict travel in the U.S. to just the west coast. Don’t want to get deported ….Lol….

[FlyerInHi]

Flu, yes it mattters who starred it. Democrats have moved to the center since Bill Clinton. Republicans have move way right.

And how do you think Trunp will make middle America better economically? You’re not talking handouts and government spending on them, I hope.

The solution is to be richer and more successful than them on the coasts and make them see that their lifestyles are wrong. They need to see the truth so they get off their fat asses and pull themselves up by the booststraps. That is the conservative, tough love way of dealing with struggling people.

[Coronita]

[quote=FlyerInHi]Flu, yes it mattters who starred it. Democrats have moved to the center since Bill Clinton. Republicans have move way right.

And how so you think Trunp will make middle America better economically? You’re not talking handouts and government spinding on them, I hope[/quote]

Well here’s an example.

Dear China. We buy a lot of shit from you. You buy a lot of natural gas from everyone.

To continue to have free access to our consumer market, buy our natural gas we have a surplus of.

Oh, and how about that factory we want you to build in oklahoma?

Most other countries do the same thing to us….

That’s why qualcomm is setting up r&d there.

[FlyerInHi]

Flu, you really want a federal industrial policy.

But I don’t think free market thinkers will like it. Natural gas is a world commoditiy all selling at the same price no matter the origin. Easier for China to build a pipeline from Russia. I think they already signed a agreement.

It doesn’t matter that China has an industrial policy. We are the best and don’t need to learn from the rest of the world. Just let the free market lose; it will conquer all and provide us untold riches.

[Coronita]

[quote=FlyerInHi]Flu, you really want a federal industrial policy.

But I don’t think free market thinkers will like it. Natural gas is a world commoditiy all selling at the same price no matter the origin. Easier for China to build a pipeline from Russia. I think they already signed a agreement.[/quote]

Agreements can be rewritten.
We are really good about not honoring our agreements. We seem to have no problem trying to rewrite pension agreements too.

I am just waiting for the moment that the is renegotiated with China, and at the height of frustration, trump and company says some like “those dirty chinks…blah blah blah….”

Lol.

And then we can look at all the Asians that actually voted for him and say “what the fuck were you thinking?”

Sometimes the only way people learn, is the hard way.

For whatever fucked up reasons, there are actually people in China that like trump. They think he is not going to meddle in far east politics. China would want that and I am guessing they would want give trade concessions to the us if it meant no meddling in far east politics. Bad news for Taiwan, Japan, Korea, phillipines Vietnam, Malaysia, etc. I think that’s why the phillipines quickly buddies up with China to get on their good side. They know it’s coming.

That island dispute will be resolved…forcefully.

So that’s how the new world order will be split. US on the west, China on the east, and maybe Russia will try to reassert itself in their former Soviet satellites)

[FlyerInHi]

I absolutely agree with you flu.

But the USA has no history of a federal industrial policy. Free market thinkers don’t believe it’s needed or even works.

Of course the red states have no problem giving incentives to companies to move there.

Plus do you think that Americans would be happy working in a Chinese factory, under the direction of Chinese expat supervisors? I’m just being facetious here. It’s already happening at GE appliances. I read there are now Chinese restaurants nearby.

[Coronita]

[quote=FlyerInHi]I absolutely agree with you flu.

But the USA has no history of a federal industrial policy. Free market thinkers don’t believe it’s needed or even works.

Of course the red states have no problem giving incentives to companies to move there.

Plus do you think that Americans would be happy working in a Chinese factory, under the direction of Chinese expat supervisors? I’m just being facetious here. It’s already happening at GE appliances. I read there are now Chinese restaurants nearby.[/quote]

I don’t really think most americans care who the boss is as long as the paycheck is good and the boss works within the appropriate laws and customs/culture we have in the U.S. And typically, foreign companies that set up shops here do just that.

Most americans only start to care what someone looks like and what race they are when they have no job.

If China negotiated a trade deal with the US like I said, America will be happy China will be happy, at the expense of all the other nations Asia.

America wins because export business goes up, US find jobs at foreign owned factories, and that means more money for americans to spend. American workers are happy because they are employed, and so they probably won’t care about anything else that happens in the Far East. Trump would look like a freaking genius, because not only will he come across as negotiating tough with china and winning, as an added bonus, he’ll say he can cut military spending since the US won’t need to patrol the far east as much anymore. Win-win for the U.S.

China will come out of this winning because while they’ll need to sacrifice a little on their export business and spend a little on setting up factories in the U.S., they’ll win a lot on the natural resources they import at much more competitive prices relative to all the other nations. China will no longer need to worry about U.S. meddling in the far east, and they can continue to build up their presence to claim the disputed island filled with natural resources. With the US out of the picture, no one will be able to contest them. Russia won’t step in, obviously. And neither Japan nor Korea nor any other nation in the east have militarized in such a way to really get into an armed conflict with China. And the U.S. certainly will not step in, if US-China trade relations are so tied together.

For Trump, this will be a business transaction. And a very good business transaction. It will be for the US and China. Everyone else gets the shaft.
I’m not saying this would be a good thing the world in general. Just saying what I think will happen. China doesn’t have any interest into getting into any military conflict with the U.S. It’s interesting that Nixon, a Republican, was the guy responsible for opening the pandora’s box to China…And it’s even more ironic that now Trump, another republican, probably will end up building more.

Nixon shafted Taiwan when Taiwan was kicked out of the UN and replaced by China. I think what we’ll see is something similar in which US-Japan/ US-Korea/ US-Taiwan relations get shafted at the expense of US-China relations.

It’s interesting to see which leaders of nations called Trump to congratulate him. That says a lot about what those nations were hoping for.

Noticeably absent? UK, Germany, Japan, Korea….

[FlyerInHi]

That’s an interesting view, flu.

So we would sell our natural resources to China at a preferential rate In exchange for China setting up factories here. That’s a lot of command and control of private enterprise.

What about the free market of commodities? Would government not be taking from private owners of those commodities.

[Anonymous]

You can speculate for as many paragraphs as you like.

The only way that jobs are going to come back to the industrial midwest are through some combination of:

1) Dramatically lower wages
2) Trade barriers
3) Elimination of environmental protection

#1 accomplishes nothing

#2 hurts more than it helps

#3 sounds tolerable until you’ve lived it first-hand, and still requires 1 and 2 to be effective

[millennial]

[quote=harvey]You can speculate for as many paragraphs as you like.

The only way that jobs are going to come back to the industrial midwest are through some combination of:

1) Dramatically lower wages
2) Trade barriers
3) Elimination of environmental protection

#1 accomplishes nothing

#2 hurts more than it helps

#3 sounds tolerable until you’ve lived it first-hand, and still requires 1 and 2 to be effective[/quote]

I don’t think industrial jobs will ever come back to the Midwest because of mechanization and outsourcing. Also if it does, it will never be like the 70’s and early 80’s where factory workers were getting paid 6 figures due to the unions and non-competitive foreign products. Despite this, cities like Detroit are now growing again and property values are growing as well. My sister just purchased a refurbished loft style condominium in a high rise for over $250k. Rent comps within the building are running between 2500-3000 a month and the available units get picked up quick. Companies such as Quicken have come in and incentivized workers by paying for their rent, or covering some of the down payment to do so. Anyways, just wanted to say that the those industrial cities are starting to right size and fill up again with professionals.

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=millennial]
I don’t think industrial jobs will ever come back to the Midwest because of mechanization and outsourcing. Also if it does, it will never be like the 70’s and early 80’s where factory workers were getting paid 6 figures due to the unions and non-competitive foreign products.
[/quote]
That’s so true. That’s why we need to focus on new jobs, not bring back old jobs.

[quote=millennial]
Despite this, cities like Detroit are now growing again and property values are growing as well. My sister just purchased a refurbished loft style condominium in a high rise for over $250k. Rent comps within the building are running between 2500-3000 a month and the available units get picked up quick. Companies such as Quicken have come in and incentivized workers by paying for their rent, or covering some of the down payment to do so. Anyways, just wanted to say that the those industrial cities are starting to right size and fill up again with professionals.[/quote]

So true again. Those old cities have great architecture and the city cores are doing well. the old urban sprawl… not so much.

Pittsburg is the same with Carnegie Mellon as a draw. Even Harrisburg, PA, the state capitol is reviving with new condos. A friend was trying to get to me to bid on a building at a ridiculous price, but it’s too far for me to handle. A beautiful stone building like in NY or Chicago! Great opportunity for real estate, but too cold for my blood.

[The-Shoveler]

[quote=FlyerInHi][quote=millennial]
I don’t think industrial jobs will ever come back to the Midwest because of mechanization and outsourcing. Also if it does, it will never be like the 70’s and early 80’s where factory workers were getting paid 6 figures due to the unions and non-competitive foreign products.
[/quote]
That’s so true. That’s why we need to focus on new jobs, not bring back old jobs.

[quote=millennial]
Despite this, cities like Detroit are now growing again and property values are growing as well. My sister just purchased a refurbished loft style condominium in a high rise for over $250k. Rent comps within the building are running between 2500-3000 a month and the available units get picked up quick. Companies such as Quicken have come in and incentivized workers by paying for their rent, or covering some of the down payment to do so. Anyways, just wanted to say that the those industrial cities are starting to right size and fill up again with professionals.[/quote]

So true again. Those old cities have great architecture and the city cores are doing well. the old urban sprawl… not so much.

Pittsburg is the same with Carnegie Mellon as a draw. Even Harrisburg, PA, the state capitol is reviving with new condos. A friend was trying to get to me to bid on a building at a ridiculous price, but it’s too far for me to handle. A beautiful stone building like in NY or Chicago! Great opportunity for real estate, but too cold for my blood.[/quote]

These Jobs are only a very small personage in these areas, most Jobs are very minimal in these cities.

[njtosd]

[quote=millennial] Despite this, cities like Detroit are now growing again and property values are growing as well. My sister just purchased a refurbished loft style condominium in a high rise for over $250k. Rent comps within the building are running between 2500-3000 a month and the available units get picked up quick. Companies such as Quicken have come in and incentivized workers by paying for their rent, or covering some of the down payment to do so. Anyways, just wanted to say that the those industrial cities are starting to right size and fill up again with professionals.[/quote]

Hmm. The house that I grew up in in the Detroit NW suburbs is now worth (adjusted for inflation) 73% of what it was worth in 1964. I’m not saying that things haven’t improved over the last few years (in fact, in 2009 it was worth about 50% of its 1964 value). But Detroit is a long way (sadly) from pulling itself out of its slide. My guess is your sister is not downtown (or maybe she is?) – last I heard there wasn’t a single chain grocery store within the city limits: http://money.cnn.com/2009/07/22/smallbusiness/detroit_grocery_stores.smb/

Detroit flourished due to the automotive industry. Initially Detroit was nothing – they almost made Calumet the capital, as that was where the big industry, mining, was when Michigan was made a state. The weather sucks – we used to celebrate the one or two sunny weekends in the summer. There is not a lot to pull people in, except cheap rent – especially for those who are looking for art studio space. And the crime rate is legendary – it is currently the 28th most dangerous city in the world by some estimates: http://www.worldatlas.com/articles/most-dangerous-cities-in-the-world.html

People have been trying to re-envision Detroit since the 70s PR campaign “Say Nice Things About Detroit” – but wishing and hoping doesn’t make it so. I wish things were different, but it has a long way to go.

[Anonymous]

Detroit, the city, is a hopeless wasteland.

Some of the suburban areas like Rochester Hills are quite nice.

Much of the rust belt follows the same pattern – white flight and all that. Detroit seems to represent the extreme of this phenomenon.

LOL, Trump is going to singlehandedly fix this:
http://www.marchandmeffre.com/detroit

Cue the Eminem music…

[an]

It’s funny you guys think those poor people are life long republicans. Here’s the 2008 results: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2008. And here’s 2012: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2012. Majority of poor people voted for Obama. The common thread is, Hope and Change. So, whoever want to win 2020, they just need to have a hope and change slogan.

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=AN]It’s funny you guys think those poor people are life long republicans. Here’s the 2008 results: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2008. And here’s 2012: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2012. Majority of poor people voted for Obama. The common thread is, Hope and Change. So, whoever want to win 2020, they just need to have a hope and change slogan.[/quote]

AN, trump voters aren’t poor per se. They are stagnant fearful middle class or working class . I’m talking about the ones in the industrial Midwest. It make no sense for them to vote for Trump on policy.

But it makes perfect sense for poor people to vote for Obama on policy. The hope is rational.

The hopey changey même will hit Trump supportes hardest.

[utcsox]

[quote=AN]It’s funny you guys think those poor people are life long republicans. Here’s the 2008 results: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2008. And here’s 2012: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2012. Majority of poor people voted for Obama. The common thread is, Hope and Change. So, whoever want to win 2020, they just need to have a hope and change slogan.[/quote]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2016

Majority of poor people voted for Hillary. What’s your point again?

[an]

[quote=utcsox][quote=AN]It’s funny you guys think those poor people are life long republicans. Here’s the 2008 results: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2008. And here’s 2012: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2012. Majority of poor people voted for Obama. The common thread is, Hope and Change. So, whoever want to win 2020, they just need to have a hope and change slogan.[/quote]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2016

Majority of poor people voted for Hillary. What’s your point again?[/quote]Sorry, I mean uneducated. Same point, if you want to win, have a hope and change message. It worked the last 3 times.

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=AN]
Sorry, I mean uneducated. Same point, if you want to win, have a hope and change message. It worked the last 3 times.[/quote]

The hopey changey meme is kinda tired. It was just a way to deride Obama supporters. Obama was the first Black President so the optimism was understandable.

There is always hope and change when voting for the non incumbent party.

Hope is part of faith which believers in God have. Change is the arc of progress, the direction we wish to go in the pursuit of a more perfect union.

It’s mean to say “how that’s hopey changey thing going for you?” to a poor Black guy who doesn’t have many opportunities but hoped that the first black president could make a difference. If anything, Obama was a role model and inspiration to many.

People who say such things deserve to have the same shit thrown back in their faces when they face adversity.

Don’t we all have hope such as that our kids will turn out good?

[NotCranky]

[quote=FlyerInHi][quote=AN]
Sorry, I mean uneducated. Same point, if you want to win, have a hope and change message. It worked the last 3 times.[/quote]

The hopey changey meme is kinda tired. It was just a way to deride Obama supporters. Obama was the first Black President so the optimism was understandable.

There is always hope and change when voting for the non incumbent party.

Hope is part of faith which believers in God have. Change is the arc of progress, the direction we wish to go in the pursuit of a more perfect union.

It’s mean to say “how that’s hopey changey thing going for you?” to a poor Black guy who doesn’t have many opportunities but hoped that the first black president could make a difference. If anything, Obama was a role model and inspiration to many.

People who say such things deserve to have the same shit thrown back in their faces when they face adversity.

Don’t we all have hope such as that our kids will turn out good?[/quote]

The people who Obama manipulated with “Hope and Change”, who would understandably be manipulated by it ,deserve some empathy for their plight and desperation. The same sentiments should apply to the struggling members of our society that fell for Trump’s hope a dope game.

[NotCranky]

The people making a fuss appear to be emotionally weak people acting hysterical , not protestors. Agree that grieving is a big part of it. Most people do that more privately and responsibly.

[spdrun]

Why is it irresponsible to grieve in public? Isn’t public grief the point of a funeral or any number of other ceremonies?

As far as the people making a fuss, fact is that a significant number of racists have been enabled by the Trump win. People who are one of the ethnicities that Trump (and his supporters) have railed against have every right to feel threatened, uncomfortable, and angry.

Same goes for anyone who has close friends, family, or significant others.

[ltsddd]

Well, there’s hope. Scary thought that christie would play a critical role on trump’s team moving forward

https://www.yahoo.com/news/behind-smiles-tough-reality-trump-080607274.html?ref=gs

…now, if only he’d make it official and get rid of guiliani also.

[millennial]

[quote=harvey]Detroit, the city, is a hopeless wasteland.

Some of the suburban areas like Rochester Hills are quite nice.

Much of the rust belt follows the same pattern – white flight and all that. Detroit seems to represent the extreme of this phenomenon.

LOL, Trump is going to singlehandedly fix this:
http://www.marchandmeffre.com/detroit

Cue the Eminem music…[/quote]

I agree, when I was growing up places like Rochester Hills, Bloomfield Hills, Grosse Pointe, and Farmington were places where people wanted to live. Things have somewhat changed since then. The downtown Detroit area is changing and many Millennials are now moving into renovated high rises downtown to enjoy the history, proximity to work and sense of community. To be honest, at first I was shocked and worried about my sister’s safety when she told me she moved downtown, but after visiting I now understand what the draw is.

[millennial]

[quote=njtosd]

Hmm. The house that I grew up in in the Detroit NW suburbs is now worth (adjusted for inflation) 73% of what it was worth in 1964. I’m not saying that things haven’t improved over the last few years (in fact, in 2009 it was worth about 50% of its 1964 value). But Detroit is a long way (sadly) from pulling itself out of its slide. My guess is your sister is not downtown (or maybe she is?) – last I heard there wasn’t a single chain grocery store within the city limits: http://money.cnn.com/2009/07/22/smallbusiness/detroit_grocery_stores.smb/

Detroit flourished due to the automotive industry. Initially Detroit was nothing – they almost made Calumet the capital, as that was where the big industry, mining, was when Michigan was made a state. The weather sucks – we used to celebrate the one or two sunny weekends in the summer. There is not a lot to pull people in, except cheap rent – especially for those who are looking for art studio space. And the crime rate is legendary – it is currently the 28th most dangerous city in the world by some estimates: http://www.worldatlas.com/articles/most-dangerous-cities-in-the-world.html

People have been trying to re-envision Detroit since the 70s PR campaign “Say Nice Things About Detroit” – but wishing and hoping doesn’t make it so. I wish things were different, but it has a long way to go.[/quote]

njtosd,

You really need to stop living in the past and move on with the times. I’m not sure where you get your information, but I get mine based on facts and people i know that live close to the source (my sister) who is living through this revitalization of downtown Detroit that I speak of. In fact, I was in downtown Detroit a few months ago to actually see this…how about you; 1980? Just look on Redfin for high rise condos in downtown Detroit.
Here’s one for instance.
https://www.redfin.com/MI/Detroit/1135-Shelby-St-48226/unit-2501/home/98941987

Listen, I think Detroit is moving on from its past and “right-sizing”. It’s probably not going to be >1 Million like at its peak, but the downtown area is vibrant and has a lot going on at night (similar to Chicago) and companies are purposefully moving downtown and encouraging and paying their workers to move…and many Mllennials will and do. This is displayed by housing values outside of Detroit which have remained stagnant. When I asked my sister why she lives downtown she names numerous reasons why she would never leave. She loves that her building has character (1920 historic building made of brick), her city has history, she feels a sense of community (everyone is proud to call Detroit their home), and she only has a 10 minute bike ride to her office at the Rennaissance. I think its very easy for people like you to be ignorant and assume things based on media. Congrats on being part of the herd, meanwhile I’ll go and find opportunities based on research and facts.

BTW, not sure if you know this but Detroit is a very large city in terms of size. Just like any large city, there are parts that are good and parts that are bad. Downtown is the CBD and the part where revitalization is occurring. Not sure how long and how far this revitalization will go, but being from Michigan I am very optimistic about their progress. If you really are from Michigan you should be ashamed.

[njtosd]

[quote=millennial]

BTW, not sure if you know this but Detroit is a very large city in terms of size. Just like any large city, there are parts that are good and parts that are bad. Downtown is the CBD and the part where revitalization is occurring. Not sure how long and how far this revitalization will go, but being from Michigan I am very optimistic about their progress. If you really are from Michigan you should be ashamed.[/quote]

Huh??? I grew up in the suburbs. My Dad was from Redford. My mom was from Highland Park. She went to McKenzie High (though she wasn’t Catherine Deneuve – ah more proof of my Motor City origins). Why would you have any better idea of the size of Detroit than anyone else? Again – it’s the somewhat ingenuous millennial thing.

The road ahead after bankruptcy is still somewhat unsure: http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/detroit-reborn/2015/11/08/detroit-rising-life-after-bankruptcy/75085252/

In terms of downtown Detroit being like Chicago – after law school I lived in Chicago (Lincoln Park, if you are still doubting – Belden Stratford) for about 7 yrs and there is absolutely NO comparison in terms of well, anything. I’m sorry that’s true but it is true. You’re free to go live in Detroit and do what you want to improve it – but both you and I are here (at least I think you are) and all we can do is be realistic and hope for the best. There’s no shame in that. But there is no point in magical thinking.

[millennial]

[quote=njtosd]

Huh??? I grew up in the suburbs. My Dad was from Redford. My mom was from Highland Park. She went to McKenzie High (though she wasn’t Catherine Deneuve – ah more proof of my Motor City origins). Why would you have any better idea of the size of Detroit than anyone else? Again – it’s the somewhat ingenuous millennial thing.

The road ahead after bankruptcy is still somewhat unsure: http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/detroit-reborn/2015/11/08/detroit-rising-life-after-bankruptcy/75085252/

In terms of downtown Detroit being like Chicago – after law school I lived in Chicago (Lincoln Park, if you are still doubting – Belden Stratford) for about 7 yrs and there is absolutely NO comparison in terms of well, anything. I’m sorry that’s true but it is true. You’re free to go live in Detroit and do what you want to improve it – but both you and I are here (at least I think you are) and all we can do is be realistic and hope for the best. There’s no shame in that. But there is no point in magical thinking.[/quote]

Listen if you want to keep hating on Detroit that’s your thing. Redford itself is a blue collar suburb of Detroit and has significantly less history and would not be considered Detroit. In terms of revitalization, I never said it’s fully revitalized by any means, but there are signs of life.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2016-01-13/detroit-s-revitalization-from-destruction-to-wealth

This video shows exactly what’s going on downtown. It’s vibrant and there are things to do like outdoor ice skating rinks, nightlife, etc.. They never had any of this when I was younger. Also displayed, is exactly what I talked about earlier which shows the areas outside which still have a lot more revitalization/bulldozing to do. Like I said, Detroit is still “right sizing” and definitely not totally revitalized, but it’s definitely taking a step in the right direction. Visionaries see things that others don’t and create the world around them. I’m not saying I’m one, but at least can appreciate and root for those that are trying to make a difference. That’s all I’m asking as a fellow Michigander.

[FlyerInHi]

Flu, TPP is dead so China has been strengthened. Maybe that’s why some people in China like Trump.
There won’t be new competition for China in trade with the US. And countries in Asia will have to work more closely with China, the elephant in the region

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2016/11/10/the-trans-pacific-partnership-is-dead-schumer-tells-labor-leaders/

[bearishgurl]

[quote=flu] . . . And then we can look at all the Asians that actually voted for him and say “what the fuck were you thinking?”

Sometimes the only way people learn, is the hard way.

For whatever fucked up reasons, there are actually people in China that like trump. They think he is not going to meddle in far east politics. China would want that and I am guessing they would want give trade concessions to the us if it meant no meddling in far east politics. Bad news for Taiwan, Japan, Korea, phillipines Vietnam, Malaysia, etc. I think that’s why the phillipines quickly buddies up with China to get on their good side. They know it’s coming.

That island dispute will be resolved…forcefully.

So that’s how the new world order will be split. US on the west, China on the east, and maybe Russia will try to reassert itself in their former Soviet satellites)[/quote]flu, the Asian numbers supporting Trump were likely much more than you thought, especially in CA. I happen to know of an Asian group of ~60 in LA County who flew to PA last week specifically to precinct walk for DJT for a few days.

[Anonymous]

[quote=FlyerInHi]Flu, you really want a federal industrial policy.

But I don’t think free market thinkers will like it. Natural gas is a world commoditiy all selling at the same price no matter the origin. Easier for China to build a pipeline from Russia. I think they already signed a agreement.

It doesn’t matter that China has an industrial policy. We are the best and don’t need to learn from the rest of the world. Just let the free market lose; it will conquer all and provide us untold riches.[/quote]

This is correct.

Many of Trump’s ideas are basically the elements of a command economy, which has much in common with socialism.

You can’t do it without very strong government regulations that restrict free trade. Flu’s natural gas example is Exhibit A.

Apparently nobody bothered to think this through….

[millennial]

[quote=FlyerInHi]Flu, yes it mattters who starred it. Democrats have moved to the center since Bill Clinton. Republicans have move way right.

And how do you think Trunp will make middle America better economically? You’re not talking handouts and government spending on them, I hope.

The solution is to be richer and more successful than them on the coasts and make them see that their lifestyles are wrong. They need to see the truth so they get off their fat asses and pull themselves up by the booststraps. That is the conservative, tough love way of dealing with struggling people.[/quote]
I wish it was that easy, but we’re talking about hundreds of thousands of americans in places like the rust belt, and appalachia. I grew up there and know what it was like and it’s not easy getting through to these people. Most people get their mores, and outlook on life by their environment and people around them and people in these areas have a tendency to be like crabs and grab the ones trying to get out back in.

[utcsox]

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-trump-students-targeted-20161110-story.html

Apparently, handed out “deportation letters” to Latino classmate was just being funny.

[millennial]

[quote=utcsox]http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-trump-students-targeted-20161110-story.html

Apparently, handed out “deportation letters” to Latino classmate was just being funny.[/quote]

This type of stuff is what I’m worried about. We now have elected a president who has been vocal about being against Mexicans, Muslims, disrespects women, and who has been endorsed by the KKK. As a society, we are basically saying that his actions are not only tolerable and acceptable, but encouraged. What a mess.

[Coronita]

If I were to put on a conspiracy theorist hat, I would say that the Russians hacked into the voting systems of some swing states, and fabricated the vote count enough to swing the electoral votes toward trump to undermine our democratic system.

And then with trump at the helm for 4 years, people would hate so much that he was elected, that the US would abandon democracy and a military coup would oust the president.

It would make a good Oliver Stone movie, don’t you think?

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=flu]If I were to put on a conspiracy theorist hat, I would say that the Russians hacked into the voting systems of some swing states, and fabricated the vote count enough to swing the electoral votes toward trump to undermine our democratic system.

And then with trump at the helm for 4 years, people would hate so much that he was elected, that the US would abandon democracy and a military coup would oust the president.

It would make a good Oliver Stone movie, don’t you think?[/quote]

Wikileaks. Like it or not, Russia was able to sway election. I don’t blame them. We messed with enough countries in the past.

[The-Shoveler]

IMO the people who voted for Trump in middle America did so out of frustration and desperation.

It’s all the good jobs have gone and I am stuck here with only minimum (or minimal) wage Jobs and all this Clinton person is telling me is that the Jobs aren’t coming back because robots are taking them anyway.

Sorry you don’t win elections that way.

Trump had a better story for them.

All the other stuff is just noise.

[Coronita]

https://www.google.com/amp/www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/public-safety/sd-me-sdsu-robbery-20161110-story,amp.html?client=ms-android-google

If you aren’t white, stay safe out there.

Also to remind people the rules about carrying a knife in CA. State law prohibits carrying a concealed knife.

However a knife carried in a sheath worn outside is considered open carry, and there is no limit on the blade length.

That is assuming you don’t have a license to carry a concealed weapon.

As a reminder…

http://www.tulare-kings-attorney.com/blog/2012/december/knife-carry-laws-in-california/

[utcsox]

[quote=flu]https://www.google.com/amp/www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/public-safety/sd-me-sdsu-robbery-20161110-story,amp.html?client=ms-android-google

If you aren’t white, stay safe out there.

Also to remind people the rules about carrying a knife in CA. State law prohibits carrying a concealed knife.

However a knife carried in a sheath worn outside is considered open carry, and there is no limit on the blade length.

That is assuming you don’t have a license to carry a concealed weapon.

As a reminder…

http://www.tulare-kings-attorney.com/blog/2012/december/knife-carry-laws-in-california/%5B/quote%5D

Nah, take a deep breath and don’t let the media get you all worked up. You shall trust the system and the decency of everyday American people.

[Coronita]

The rich non-minority 1% are breathing a sigh of relief. Clearly all the economic ills of the the american middle class is not the non-minority 1%…Clearly, it’s all the colored people’s fault.

Well played, non-minority 1%… Well, played…

Lol…

[Coronita]

For a lot of us, this wasn’t about having an ego bruised, it was more about our kids.

Here’s something that happened at school the other day. 5th graders…..

So my kid and her friends were hanging out. One of the friends, a boy, decides to be funny, and makes a joke…

He says “How can you tell Donald Trump was here?”
He points to a retainer wall and says “here’s a wall”….

Now, I know he was just joking around, and probably making fun of Trump more than anything else, so all the kids laugh (even my own kid)….But there was a poor latino classmate that was with the group and she was just mortified, and started to cry. They boy felt bad because he really didn’t mean to hurt anyone, he was just joking around about it. My own kid didn’t understand why her friend reacted that way, and so I explained it to her: some latinos (even though they have citizenship here, and have family members that serve in Camp Pendelton) feel unwelcome in this country. It would be no different that someone looks at you and says, send all the Chinese back to China, to which my daughter says…”but, I was born here….”…to which I say…exactly….. Anyway, the boy didn’t really mean anything and talked to the girl and it was all fine afterwards…And no, no parent were involved in this, as they appeared to work things out themselves, luckily because the boy is(was) a friend….(more on that later).

Trump, might not really build a wall, or ship bus loads of migrant workers home. But the damage is already done. I don’t think the latino girl wants to be friends with the boy anymore too….And so to some extent, a wall has already been built, which I think is a little sad.

[millennial]

[quote=flu]….And so to some extent, a wall has already been built, which I think is a little sad.[/quote]

Great story flu! I agree wholeheartedly. It’s really sad that someone whom kids learn in school to admire, says such hurtful things. Some kids are smart enough to know that the president elect is nothing more than a bully, but others will mimic and intentionally/unintentionally hurt those around them.

[Coronita]

[quote=millennial][quote=flu]….And so to some extent, a wall has already been built, which I think is a little sad.[/quote]

Great story flu! I agree wholeheartedly. It’s really sad that someone whom kids learn in school to admire, says such hurtful things. Some kids are smart enough to know that the president elect is nothing more than a bully, but others will mimic and intentionally/unintentionally hurt those around them.[/quote]

It this particular case, I know the kid that said it. I honestly believe he wasn’t trying to be hurtful. He was really just trying to tell a joke about Trump. Here’s probably smarter and more sophisticated than most kids his grade. But, unfortunately, that poor girl didn’t understand that it was a joke. I think she was taken aback that one of her own now-ex-friend..

[Coronita]

So the funny part is that it appears Trump is now saying he’s not planning to try to kill obamacare……I thought that was one on the main reasons people were backing him….Lol…I wonder eventually how much of what he says, he’s actually going to do.

I’m beginning to think that as he slowly learns what each of the issues are, he’s now like saying “oh shit, I didn’t think about that…That isn’t such a bad thing after all…”

Trump likes main Obamacare provisions ‘very much’

http://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-37953528

US President-elect Donald Trump has said in an interview he is open to leaving intact key parts of President Barack Obama’s healthcare bill.
Mr Trump, who has pledged repeatedly to repeal the 2010 law, signalled he was receptive to a compromise after visiting the White House on Thursday.
He told the Wall Street Journal he favours keeping two pillars of the bill because “I like those very much”.

ha ha ha, oh my god… He’s not even in the white house yet, and he’s flipping on some of the main pillars of his campaign. Wow, that’s awesome.

[Anonymous]

This is Trump’s healthcare plan:

– Start with Obamacare.

– Give it a new name.

– Change a few parameters to make it look they actually did something.

– Have Fox News tout how wonderful it is day-in day-out for a year or two.

– Have talk radio dismiss any data, anecdotes, or other evidence of problems as MSM propaganda or whining by liberal elitists.

And just like that, healthcare in America will transform from disaster to success.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=harvey]This is Trump’s healthcare plan:

– Start with Obamacare.

– Give it a new name.

– Change a few parameters to make it look they actually did something.

– Have Fox News tout how wonderful it is day-in day-out for a year or two.

– Have talk radio dismiss any data, anecdotes, or other evidence of problems as MSM propaganda or whining by liberal elitists.

And just like that, healthcare in America will transform from disaster to success.[/quote]And pri_dk also needs to read Trump’s proposals on his website. He’s spouting nonsense into thin air.

[spdrun]

He never was. He’s been fairly consistently for removal of pre-existing condition rules, and even universal coverage since the late 90s.

What bothers me isn’t his ideas about health care. It’s his authoritarian streak. When he was interviewed in 1990, he stated that his impression of the USSR was that Gorbachev wasn’t harsh enough, and he praised the Chinese reponse to Tiananmen Square.

I’m more concerned about internal DHS/Border Patrol checkpoints, having to show ID everywhere, increased funding for civil forfeiture programs, mass incarceration, rolling back War on Drugs reform than I am about health care under Donnie.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=flu]So the funny part is that it appears Trump is now saying he’s not planning to try to kill obamacare……I thought that was one on the main reasons people were backing him….Lol…I wonder eventually how much of what he says, he’s actually going to do.

I’m beginning to think that as he slowly learns what each of the issues are, he’s now like saying “oh shit, I didn’t think about that…That isn’t such a bad thing after all…”

Trump likes main Obamacare provisions ‘very much’

http://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-37953528

US President-elect Donald Trump has said in an interview he is open to leaving intact key parts of President Barack Obama’s healthcare bill.
Mr Trump, who has pledged repeatedly to repeal the 2010 law, signalled he was receptive to a compromise after visiting the White House on Thursday.
He told the Wall Street Journal he favours keeping two pillars of the bill because “I like those very much”.

ha ha ha, oh my god… He’s not even in the white house yet, and he’s flipping on some of the main pillars of his campaign. Wow, that’s awesome.[/quote]The two parts Trump wants to “keep” are that people with pre-existing conditions can’t be denied coverage and young adults under the age of 26 can remain on their parent’s policy until they get their own coverage from FT work.

That’s it.

Those provisions aren’t new. They were going to be in his reform plans. If you read his proposals on his website, you would know that.

Those two things can be accomplished through the formation of state insurance pools formed for people with pre-existing conditions and a monthly allowance to help pay their (likely exorbitant) premiums. Yes, even if Obamacare is repealed in its entirety.

Currently, EVERYONE who has purchased a (non-Medicaid) Obamacare plan is paying higher (often MUCH higher) premiums to assist those who can’t otherwise afford coverage due to having pre-existing conditions.

Major insurance companies WILL participate in the state insurance pools . . . that is, if they want the right to sell policies to healthy people in that state. This is what should have been done in 2010 instead of drag everyone who was happy with their plan into the spiraling morass of dogsh*t..

In CA, only about 1.4 million people on “Obamacare” are actually marketplace planholders. A large portion of this group (myself included) were already insured prior to the inception of the ACA and our plans were cancelled directly as a result of the law. The other 12 million or so who signed up on Covered CA are on Medi-Cal … about half of them involuntarily. Covered CA is a joke and the ACA was designed to place as many people as possible as soon as possible on Medicaid, so our respective County Depts of Social Services would have all of our income info (which could be used against us later for other purposes) and complete control over our healthcare decisions.

In reality, Obamacare has helped no one and actually very quickly had the effect of decimating our insurance system (which was the Dem’s plan all along, so “universal coverage” would seem more palatable to the masses). The people who needed subsidies to purchase a crappy high-deductible narrow-network plan on the exchange could have afforded a nationwide HDHP with a HUGE provider network from a very reputable carrier pre-ACA but they chose not to spend the money until it was “mandated” and they got a very substandard product for it. They’re spending money now …. in spades …. OR dropping out of the exchange without coverage OR going on Medi-Cal. Obamacare is sinking from its own weight.

Compare the state insurance pools to “Mexico WILL pay for the wall” … directly or indirectly. MX can either cooperate with us now or pay dearly for not doing so later.

****

flu, you have a tendency to generalize on things you read on the internet and then type a little sound byte about it here … for “effect” (positive or negative). For example, you repeatedly have stated here that you personally fear deportation under a Trump presidency yet you claim to be a US citizen. If you can keep your facts straight and quit posting in drama queen fashion, you would be more credible.

[bearishgurl]

We need a president to play hardball with countries who have been taking advantage of us for decades and I am so glad we are getting one who has the [email protected] to do so. It’s about time…

[spdrun]

What’s wrong with just offering an exchange plan to everyone? Get rid of Medicaid. Get rid of employer mandates. Allow insurance companies to offer the same plan nationwide via the exchanges. Allow states to throw a public option into the ring if they want to.

Subsidize everyone where the second lowest-cost silver plan costs more than x% of income. No top income limit, which gets rid of the subsidy cliff.

In NY, a gold plan ($600 deductible) costs about $500-550 per month in 2017. Medicaid costs the state about $1000 per month per user. It would be cheaper to subsidize everyone fully below a certain income and help them with the copays.

Beautiful thing about NY is that it’s been community rated and guaranteed-issue since the early 1990s. Meaning that you got a fixed price on a specific plan regardless of age, gender, or health status.

Insurance is a misnomer. It should be called health CARE or a health system, designed to cover everyone and keep them healthy.

[spdrun]

BTW, Trump may want to INCREASE subsidies. He’s stated that he wants to allow individuals to deduct premiums from their income taxes, which sounds like a tax CREDIT for the full amount of the insurance, not a deduction. (There’s already a self-employed insurance deduction from income.)

AFAIK, that’s basically what the subsidy is, except that it doesn’t cover the full cost. Semantics 101.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=spdrun]BTW, Trump may want to INCREASE subsidies. He’s stated that he wants to allow individuals to deduct premiums from their income taxes, which sounds like a tax CREDIT for the full amount of the insurance, not a deduction. (There’s already a self-employed insurance deduction from income.)

AFAIK, that’s basically what the subsidy is, except that it doesn’t cover the full cost. Semantics 101.[/quote]I like that idea because the people who pay higher premiums (from the state pool offerings because they have pre-existing conditions) get bigger tax credits. As it should be. And the rest of us should be vetted. I’m standing by to submit to a physical exam by the provider of choice of my new carrier if we can just get some major carriers back into this state who will offer PPO plans on the open market.

We should ALL be priced according to risk. This gives an incentive for the 300-lb smoker to lose weight and stop smoking and the alcoholic to get help before their liver is gone and their lives have been severely shortened.

In addition, females should not be paying for expensive “maternity care” coverage if they are sterilized or past the age of menopause (or both). I hate being charged for this. It is ridiculous and no one was around to subsidize MY premiums when I was of childbearing age.

[Anonymous]

[quote=spdrun]BTW, Trump may want to INCREASE subsidies. He’s stated that he wants to allow individuals to deduct premiums from their income taxes, which sounds like a tax CREDIT for the full amount of the insurance, not a deduction. (There’s already a self-employed insurance deduction from income.)

AFAIK, that’s basically what the subsidy is, except that it doesn’t cover the full cost. Semantics 101.[/quote]

Just apply your “Don’t tread on me” bumper sticker next to your “Make America Great” bumper sticker and everything will just work out.

[spdrun]

bearishgurl: why not have the same rate for everyone, but tax cigarettes, booze, and junk food more highly at the state level? Put the money in a fund to help defray insurance costs.

That seems like the minimally invasive way of changing behavior. The doctor checkup to get insurance at a reasonable price turns doctors into gatekeepers that PREVENT their patients from getting care at a reasonable price.

Note that developed countries which have state-controlled insurance systems generally have a higher life expectancy than the US.

[bearishgurl]

[quote=spdrun]What’s wrong with just offering an exchange plan to everyone? Get rid of Medicaid. Get rid of employer mandates. Allow insurance companies to offer the same plan nationwide via the exchanges. Allow states to throw a public option into the ring if they want to.

Subsidize everyone where the second lowest-cost silver plan costs more than x% of income. No top income limit, which gets rid of the subsidy cliff.

In NY, a gold plan ($600 deductible) costs about $500-550 per month in 2017. Medicaid costs the state about $1000 per month per user. It would be cheaper to subsidize everyone fully below a certain income and help them with the copays.[/quote]Wow, that’s amazing, spd. Medicaid costs approx $632 per month in CA (Medi-Cal) and the exchange dumps them into a very narrow-network, substandard regional managed-care plan. A Gold plan doesn’t have a deductible in CA BUT it costs anywhere between $450 and $1550 month, depending on age. I have a Gold PPO from the exchange and my local provider network has been decimated in the past year and a half. In some specialties, there are now <=5 providers available to me within a 15-mile radius of my (urban) home. My premiums will be just short of $10K this year and I have only used $214 so far in services and the year is almost gone. I have one more test to go (at a cost of <=$75) before the end of the year. I had to seek out a new provider last month because my longtime one folded up his business after practicing since 1969, having a separate lab for clinical trials and teaching his specialty to medical students. He sent his patients letters stating he couldn't pay his staff with the new reimbursements under the ACA. I found a new one just down the street from him but she insisted I pay her a $35 copay (when there shouldn't have been a copay because it was preventative care) because I was on "obamacare." I just got an e-mail today that my EOB for her appt was ready and guess how much Blue Shield of CA paid her (a 38-year veteran in her specialty, all in SD and LA counties) for a 40-minute new patient appt? How about $37.09. That's right, folks, $37.09! On my pre-ACA healthplan, Aetna paid a similarly-situated specialist $168 for an appt like this in 2013. BSoC paid my old provider (who retired in late 2015) $68 for an annual appt (established patient) and that wasn’t enough to keep him and his staff in business. And he owned his medical bldg in Hillcrest outright!

Now I know why my new doctor wanted $35 up front to take me on as a patient. With my “bribe” of $35 and the $37 she got from my carrier, she made $72 off my appt, in which she created a file for me and had my blood drawn in her office and drove it herself to the lab!

Like Bill Clinton admitted, it’s crazymaking. If they’re not employed by an HMO (ex: Kaiser) or EPO (ex: Sharp), these doctors are starting to turn their practices into accepting only cash patients and/or patients with “enterprise” plans (offered by large employers). My 2014 obamacare premiums totaled ~$9K, my 2015 obamacare premiums totaled ~$10K and my 2016 obamacare premiums totaled almost $10K (after dropping down another metal level).

I tried to sign up on Covered CA for my 2017 plan today and the “system” would not allow me to sign up for one. Apparently a CC agent went into the system on 11/8 and filled out an application for me to keep my present plan, which is going up $271 month! They even signed with an X my name at the bottom of the app! I haven’t been in the system in about seven months! I planned on dropping down to silver for ~$9K year but now I will have to call CC again and put them on a tape recorder because they will never admit they locked me out of choosing a plan, fraudulently signed me up and will most certainly try to delete the evidence in the system. I already printed the time and date-stamped screenshot of their technician doing this to cover myself.

All of you people who have never had to avail yourselves of “obamacare” just have no clue what people go thru just to maintain a plan month to month and year to year and remain vigilant that they do not get dumped into Medicaid behind their backs. It gives a lot of people high blood pressure and causes a lot of people to terminate their participation in it.

We can’t get rid of Medicaid. It is the only program which serves the poor (those who can’t pay premiums at all). People who are asset-rich but income-poor should NOT be on Medicaid but they are involuntarily forced onto Medicaid behind their backs under the ACA. The states had no business expanding that program because there weren’t even enough providers to serve the poor in a timely manner BEFORE the ACA. Now, obamacare has increased this population by 500% in many states with “Medicaid Expansion” under the ACA and the system no longer functions. Patients are being crushed with months-long wait-times to see the few providers who will accept Medicaid.

[Author]

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