OT: I hate big governments, government overeaching it’s sticky hands

[SK in CV]

[quote=flu]
Simple. I would beg to say that in most cases *most* public servants are *unqualified* to be in any meaningful role of authority to be making a call..Because at *best*, they are *average* humans like everyone else, and in most cases they are most likely not even up to that standard…And that even includes judges…..

[/quote]

I’m not sure there was an answer to my question in there. Do you think that because of your belief that civil servants are usually unqualified, that CPS should be abolished? How about police and fire departments?

[briansd1]

How about the qualifications of goverment agents sending a predator drone to hit suspected terrorists?

[briansd1]

How about the qualifications of goverment agents sending a predator drone to hit suspected terrorists?

[briansd1]

How about the qualifications of goverment agents sending a predator drone to hit suspected terrorists?

[briansd1]

How about the qualifications of goverment agents sending a predator drone to hit suspected terrorists?

[briansd1]

How about the qualifications of goverment agents sending a predator drone to hit suspected terrorists?

[CA renter]

[quote=flu][quote=SK in CV]A question for you flu.

Based on this sketchy evidence, I have no idea if the father actually committed any crime. Maybe he did, maybe he didn’t, but from what’s been presented, it certainly doesn’t appear to be sufficient to remove the kids from the home. But my question is this….what if the evidence was all but uncontrovertable. Actual photos of dad molesting the kids? Would that have been sufficient for you to believe the kids should be removed from the home?

The reason I ask, is that it seems to me that often when people assail big government, the actual complaint is about bad government. Maybe power hungry social workers. Maybe someone honestly believing, without good evidence that a crime has been committed. Smaller wouldn’t necessarily be any better. Fewer social workers on the street would just as likely to have dangerous egos. Or be so overworked that they just make mistakes. Should CPS not have the power to do what they do? Or should they just be better at it?

(And as an aside, if this government employee really is a social worker, she’s making much more than minimum wage. Social workers are trained medical professionals, and are reasonably well paid, although last I saw the pay scales, those working in the public sector are paid below those in the private sector.)[/quote]

Simple. I would beg to say that in most cases *most* public servants are *unqualified* to be in any meaningful role of authority to be making a call..Because at *best*, they are *average* humans like everyone else, and in most cases they are most likely not even up to that standard…And that even includes judges…..

Hmmm, I wonder what the qualifications are needed into to be a part of social services……….Call me elitist, but I bet I if you compare me to 10 other folks from social services, I’m pretty confident me as a parent would not nearly be as screwed up as as the remaining 10 social services employees…For instance, I don’t feed my kids nasty junk from McDonald’s or (insert your favorite donut shop) on a regular basis, which in my mind would be a form of child abuse….Hell, most americans probably get rubbed the wrong way by Amy Chua’s raising of a kid…..So ,yes I do have an issue when government overextends and starts to put rules/regulations/guidelines above common sense…I mean, it’s as if, it’s to “dumb things down” so anyone can do it…It doesn’t work that way…

It’s completely absurd in the serbian case that there are no charges of child abuse, no additional actions, and yet some random judge still thinks the parents are a threat to the kid….I mean, if this isn’t a complete miscarriage of justice, I don’t know what is….That judge frankly should be fired…But unfortunately, in the public sector, that just doesn’t happen….[/quote]

flu,

I agree with you wholeheartedly regarding the overreaching of “Big Government” in the family sphere; however, it’s a very tight rope these social workers must tread.

There have been a number of cases where social services was investigating/involved with a family, but the child(ren) were allowed to remain with the parent(s). Then, some time later, the child(ren) were murdered by the parent(s), putting Social Services under the microscope, with all kinds of accusations claiming that they didn’t do their duty, and were the cause of these children being murdered. All hell breaks loose in the social services world when things like this happen, so they begin to clamp down a bit more, in order to eliminate or reduce the number of cases where this happens.

OTOH, I’m a firm believer in the sanctity of family, and believe that different parenting styles might seem “abusive” to people who don’t share the same beliefs. These parents and children need to be protected from the witch hunts that can occur when nosy or disgruntled neighbors (or co-workers, or teachers, etc.) decide to make abuse claims against these families.

Either way, whether children are wrongfully removed from their homes, or allowed to stay with abusive parents, really bad things can happen.

One thing to also consider is that many people are drawn toward working in social services because they have strong feelings about what constitutes abuse or neglect. Unfortunately, there is a lot of subjectivity involved, and we have to accept or deal with the social workers who might be a bit too overzealous. I’m not sure what the answer is, but do think that removing a child from a parent should only be done when there is ample evidence of **real** abuse or neglect, and when the family has had competent legal representation. It’s a tough call, though.

FYI, almost all social workers in California have at least a master’s degree (and many have PhDs), and have to do a lot of field training in order to become licensed social workers.
—————–

Social workers in California must obtain licensure rather than certification to practice in the field. The California Board of Behavioral Sciences, which administers licensure, requires completion of a Master of Social Work (MSW), as well as additional courses of graduates of many accredited schools; however, California State University, Northridge and California State University, Fullerton offer complete Master of Social Work programs necessitating no additional course requirements.

http://education-portal.com/california_certification_for_social_worker.html

[CA renter]

[quote=flu][quote=SK in CV]A question for you flu.

Based on this sketchy evidence, I have no idea if the father actually committed any crime. Maybe he did, maybe he didn’t, but from what’s been presented, it certainly doesn’t appear to be sufficient to remove the kids from the home. But my question is this….what if the evidence was all but uncontrovertable. Actual photos of dad molesting the kids? Would that have been sufficient for you to believe the kids should be removed from the home?

The reason I ask, is that it seems to me that often when people assail big government, the actual complaint is about bad government. Maybe power hungry social workers. Maybe someone honestly believing, without good evidence that a crime has been committed. Smaller wouldn’t necessarily be any better. Fewer social workers on the street would just as likely to have dangerous egos. Or be so overworked that they just make mistakes. Should CPS not have the power to do what they do? Or should they just be better at it?

(And as an aside, if this government employee really is a social worker, she’s making much more than minimum wage. Social workers are trained medical professionals, and are reasonably well paid, although last I saw the pay scales, those working in the public sector are paid below those in the private sector.)[/quote]

Simple. I would beg to say that in most cases *most* public servants are *unqualified* to be in any meaningful role of authority to be making a call..Because at *best*, they are *average* humans like everyone else, and in most cases they are most likely not even up to that standard…And that even includes judges…..

Hmmm, I wonder what the qualifications are needed into to be a part of social services……….Call me elitist, but I bet I if you compare me to 10 other folks from social services, I’m pretty confident me as a parent would not nearly be as screwed up as as the remaining 10 social services employees…For instance, I don’t feed my kids nasty junk from McDonald’s or (insert your favorite donut shop) on a regular basis, which in my mind would be a form of child abuse….Hell, most americans probably get rubbed the wrong way by Amy Chua’s raising of a kid…..So ,yes I do have an issue when government overextends and starts to put rules/regulations/guidelines above common sense…I mean, it’s as if, it’s to “dumb things down” so anyone can do it…It doesn’t work that way…

It’s completely absurd in the serbian case that there are no charges of child abuse, no additional actions, and yet some random judge still thinks the parents are a threat to the kid….I mean, if this isn’t a complete miscarriage of justice, I don’t know what is….That judge frankly should be fired…But unfortunately, in the public sector, that just doesn’t happen….[/quote]

flu,

I agree with you wholeheartedly regarding the overreaching of “Big Government” in the family sphere; however, it’s a very tight rope these social workers must tread.

There have been a number of cases where social services was investigating/involved with a family, but the child(ren) were allowed to remain with the parent(s). Then, some time later, the child(ren) were murdered by the parent(s), putting Social Services under the microscope, with all kinds of accusations claiming that they didn’t do their duty, and were the cause of these children being murdered. All hell breaks loose in the social services world when things like this happen, so they begin to clamp down a bit more, in order to eliminate or reduce the number of cases where this happens.

OTOH, I’m a firm believer in the sanctity of family, and believe that different parenting styles might seem “abusive” to people who don’t share the same beliefs. These parents and children need to be protected from the witch hunts that can occur when nosy or disgruntled neighbors (or co-workers, or teachers, etc.) decide to make abuse claims against these families.

Either way, whether children are wrongfully removed from their homes, or allowed to stay with abusive parents, really bad things can happen.

One thing to also consider is that many people are drawn toward working in social services because they have strong feelings about what constitutes abuse or neglect. Unfortunately, there is a lot of subjectivity involved, and we have to accept or deal with the social workers who might be a bit too overzealous. I’m not sure what the answer is, but do think that removing a child from a parent should only be done when there is ample evidence of **real** abuse or neglect, and when the family has had competent legal representation. It’s a tough call, though.

FYI, almost all social workers in California have at least a master’s degree (and many have PhDs), and have to do a lot of field training in order to become licensed social workers.
—————–

Social workers in California must obtain licensure rather than certification to practice in the field. The California Board of Behavioral Sciences, which administers licensure, requires completion of a Master of Social Work (MSW), as well as additional courses of graduates of many accredited schools; however, California State University, Northridge and California State University, Fullerton offer complete Master of Social Work programs necessitating no additional course requirements.

http://education-portal.com/california_certification_for_social_worker.html

[CA renter]

[quote=flu][quote=SK in CV]A question for you flu.

Based on this sketchy evidence, I have no idea if the father actually committed any crime. Maybe he did, maybe he didn’t, but from what’s been presented, it certainly doesn’t appear to be sufficient to remove the kids from the home. But my question is this….what if the evidence was all but uncontrovertable. Actual photos of dad molesting the kids? Would that have been sufficient for you to believe the kids should be removed from the home?

The reason I ask, is that it seems to me that often when people assail big government, the actual complaint is about bad government. Maybe power hungry social workers. Maybe someone honestly believing, without good evidence that a crime has been committed. Smaller wouldn’t necessarily be any better. Fewer social workers on the street would just as likely to have dangerous egos. Or be so overworked that they just make mistakes. Should CPS not have the power to do what they do? Or should they just be better at it?

(And as an aside, if this government employee really is a social worker, she’s making much more than minimum wage. Social workers are trained medical professionals, and are reasonably well paid, although last I saw the pay scales, those working in the public sector are paid below those in the private sector.)[/quote]

Simple. I would beg to say that in most cases *most* public servants are *unqualified* to be in any meaningful role of authority to be making a call..Because at *best*, they are *average* humans like everyone else, and in most cases they are most likely not even up to that standard…And that even includes judges…..

Hmmm, I wonder what the qualifications are needed into to be a part of social services……….Call me elitist, but I bet I if you compare me to 10 other folks from social services, I’m pretty confident me as a parent would not nearly be as screwed up as as the remaining 10 social services employees…For instance, I don’t feed my kids nasty junk from McDonald’s or (insert your favorite donut shop) on a regular basis, which in my mind would be a form of child abuse….Hell, most americans probably get rubbed the wrong way by Amy Chua’s raising of a kid…..So ,yes I do have an issue when government overextends and starts to put rules/regulations/guidelines above common sense…I mean, it’s as if, it’s to “dumb things down” so anyone can do it…It doesn’t work that way…

It’s completely absurd in the serbian case that there are no charges of child abuse, no additional actions, and yet some random judge still thinks the parents are a threat to the kid….I mean, if this isn’t a complete miscarriage of justice, I don’t know what is….That judge frankly should be fired…But unfortunately, in the public sector, that just doesn’t happen….[/quote]

flu,

I agree with you wholeheartedly regarding the overreaching of “Big Government” in the family sphere; however, it’s a very tight rope these social workers must tread.

There have been a number of cases where social services was investigating/involved with a family, but the child(ren) were allowed to remain with the parent(s). Then, some time later, the child(ren) were murdered by the parent(s), putting Social Services under the microscope, with all kinds of accusations claiming that they didn’t do their duty, and were the cause of these children being murdered. All hell breaks loose in the social services world when things like this happen, so they begin to clamp down a bit more, in order to eliminate or reduce the number of cases where this happens.

OTOH, I’m a firm believer in the sanctity of family, and believe that different parenting styles might seem “abusive” to people who don’t share the same beliefs. These parents and children need to be protected from the witch hunts that can occur when nosy or disgruntled neighbors (or co-workers, or teachers, etc.) decide to make abuse claims against these families.

Either way, whether children are wrongfully removed from their homes, or allowed to stay with abusive parents, really bad things can happen.

One thing to also consider is that many people are drawn toward working in social services because they have strong feelings about what constitutes abuse or neglect. Unfortunately, there is a lot of subjectivity involved, and we have to accept or deal with the social workers who might be a bit too overzealous. I’m not sure what the answer is, but do think that removing a child from a parent should only be done when there is ample evidence of **real** abuse or neglect, and when the family has had competent legal representation. It’s a tough call, though.

FYI, almost all social workers in California have at least a master’s degree (and many have PhDs), and have to do a lot of field training in order to become licensed social workers.
—————–

Social workers in California must obtain licensure rather than certification to practice in the field. The California Board of Behavioral Sciences, which administers licensure, requires completion of a Master of Social Work (MSW), as well as additional courses of graduates of many accredited schools; however, California State University, Northridge and California State University, Fullerton offer complete Master of Social Work programs necessitating no additional course requirements.

http://education-portal.com/california_certification_for_social_worker.html

[CA renter]

[quote=flu][quote=SK in CV]A question for you flu.

Based on this sketchy evidence, I have no idea if the father actually committed any crime. Maybe he did, maybe he didn’t, but from what’s been presented, it certainly doesn’t appear to be sufficient to remove the kids from the home. But my question is this….what if the evidence was all but uncontrovertable. Actual photos of dad molesting the kids? Would that have been sufficient for you to believe the kids should be removed from the home?

The reason I ask, is that it seems to me that often when people assail big government, the actual complaint is about bad government. Maybe power hungry social workers. Maybe someone honestly believing, without good evidence that a crime has been committed. Smaller wouldn’t necessarily be any better. Fewer social workers on the street would just as likely to have dangerous egos. Or be so overworked that they just make mistakes. Should CPS not have the power to do what they do? Or should they just be better at it?

(And as an aside, if this government employee really is a social worker, she’s making much more than minimum wage. Social workers are trained medical professionals, and are reasonably well paid, although last I saw the pay scales, those working in the public sector are paid below those in the private sector.)[/quote]

Simple. I would beg to say that in most cases *most* public servants are *unqualified* to be in any meaningful role of authority to be making a call..Because at *best*, they are *average* humans like everyone else, and in most cases they are most likely not even up to that standard…And that even includes judges…..

Hmmm, I wonder what the qualifications are needed into to be a part of social services……….Call me elitist, but I bet I if you compare me to 10 other folks from social services, I’m pretty confident me as a parent would not nearly be as screwed up as as the remaining 10 social services employees…For instance, I don’t feed my kids nasty junk from McDonald’s or (insert your favorite donut shop) on a regular basis, which in my mind would be a form of child abuse….Hell, most americans probably get rubbed the wrong way by Amy Chua’s raising of a kid…..So ,yes I do have an issue when government overextends and starts to put rules/regulations/guidelines above common sense…I mean, it’s as if, it’s to “dumb things down” so anyone can do it…It doesn’t work that way…

It’s completely absurd in the serbian case that there are no charges of child abuse, no additional actions, and yet some random judge still thinks the parents are a threat to the kid….I mean, if this isn’t a complete miscarriage of justice, I don’t know what is….That judge frankly should be fired…But unfortunately, in the public sector, that just doesn’t happen….[/quote]

flu,

I agree with you wholeheartedly regarding the overreaching of “Big Government” in the family sphere; however, it’s a very tight rope these social workers must tread.

There have been a number of cases where social services was investigating/involved with a family, but the child(ren) were allowed to remain with the parent(s). Then, some time later, the child(ren) were murdered by the parent(s), putting Social Services under the microscope, with all kinds of accusations claiming that they didn’t do their duty, and were the cause of these children being murdered. All hell breaks loose in the social services world when things like this happen, so they begin to clamp down a bit more, in order to eliminate or reduce the number of cases where this happens.

OTOH, I’m a firm believer in the sanctity of family, and believe that different parenting styles might seem “abusive” to people who don’t share the same beliefs. These parents and children need to be protected from the witch hunts that can occur when nosy or disgruntled neighbors (or co-workers, or teachers, etc.) decide to make abuse claims against these families.

Either way, whether children are wrongfully removed from their homes, or allowed to stay with abusive parents, really bad things can happen.

One thing to also consider is that many people are drawn toward working in social services because they have strong feelings about what constitutes abuse or neglect. Unfortunately, there is a lot of subjectivity involved, and we have to accept or deal with the social workers who might be a bit too overzealous. I’m not sure what the answer is, but do think that removing a child from a parent should only be done when there is ample evidence of **real** abuse or neglect, and when the family has had competent legal representation. It’s a tough call, though.

FYI, almost all social workers in California have at least a master’s degree (and many have PhDs), and have to do a lot of field training in order to become licensed social workers.
—————–

Social workers in California must obtain licensure rather than certification to practice in the field. The California Board of Behavioral Sciences, which administers licensure, requires completion of a Master of Social Work (MSW), as well as additional courses of graduates of many accredited schools; however, California State University, Northridge and California State University, Fullerton offer complete Master of Social Work programs necessitating no additional course requirements.

http://education-portal.com/california_certification_for_social_worker.html

[CA renter]

[quote=flu][quote=SK in CV]A question for you flu.

Based on this sketchy evidence, I have no idea if the father actually committed any crime. Maybe he did, maybe he didn’t, but from what’s been presented, it certainly doesn’t appear to be sufficient to remove the kids from the home. But my question is this….what if the evidence was all but uncontrovertable. Actual photos of dad molesting the kids? Would that have been sufficient for you to believe the kids should be removed from the home?

The reason I ask, is that it seems to me that often when people assail big government, the actual complaint is about bad government. Maybe power hungry social workers. Maybe someone honestly believing, without good evidence that a crime has been committed. Smaller wouldn’t necessarily be any better. Fewer social workers on the street would just as likely to have dangerous egos. Or be so overworked that they just make mistakes. Should CPS not have the power to do what they do? Or should they just be better at it?

(And as an aside, if this government employee really is a social worker, she’s making much more than minimum wage. Social workers are trained medical professionals, and are reasonably well paid, although last I saw the pay scales, those working in the public sector are paid below those in the private sector.)[/quote]

Simple. I would beg to say that in most cases *most* public servants are *unqualified* to be in any meaningful role of authority to be making a call..Because at *best*, they are *average* humans like everyone else, and in most cases they are most likely not even up to that standard…And that even includes judges…..

Hmmm, I wonder what the qualifications are needed into to be a part of social services……….Call me elitist, but I bet I if you compare me to 10 other folks from social services, I’m pretty confident me as a parent would not nearly be as screwed up as as the remaining 10 social services employees…For instance, I don’t feed my kids nasty junk from McDonald’s or (insert your favorite donut shop) on a regular basis, which in my mind would be a form of child abuse….Hell, most americans probably get rubbed the wrong way by Amy Chua’s raising of a kid…..So ,yes I do have an issue when government overextends and starts to put rules/regulations/guidelines above common sense…I mean, it’s as if, it’s to “dumb things down” so anyone can do it…It doesn’t work that way…

It’s completely absurd in the serbian case that there are no charges of child abuse, no additional actions, and yet some random judge still thinks the parents are a threat to the kid….I mean, if this isn’t a complete miscarriage of justice, I don’t know what is….That judge frankly should be fired…But unfortunately, in the public sector, that just doesn’t happen….[/quote]

flu,

I agree with you wholeheartedly regarding the overreaching of “Big Government” in the family sphere; however, it’s a very tight rope these social workers must tread.

There have been a number of cases where social services was investigating/involved with a family, but the child(ren) were allowed to remain with the parent(s). Then, some time later, the child(ren) were murdered by the parent(s), putting Social Services under the microscope, with all kinds of accusations claiming that they didn’t do their duty, and were the cause of these children being murdered. All hell breaks loose in the social services world when things like this happen, so they begin to clamp down a bit more, in order to eliminate or reduce the number of cases where this happens.

OTOH, I’m a firm believer in the sanctity of family, and believe that different parenting styles might seem “abusive” to people who don’t share the same beliefs. These parents and children need to be protected from the witch hunts that can occur when nosy or disgruntled neighbors (or co-workers, or teachers, etc.) decide to make abuse claims against these families.

Either way, whether children are wrongfully removed from their homes, or allowed to stay with abusive parents, really bad things can happen.

One thing to also consider is that many people are drawn toward working in social services because they have strong feelings about what constitutes abuse or neglect. Unfortunately, there is a lot of subjectivity involved, and we have to accept or deal with the social workers who might be a bit too overzealous. I’m not sure what the answer is, but do think that removing a child from a parent should only be done when there is ample evidence of **real** abuse or neglect, and when the family has had competent legal representation. It’s a tough call, though.

FYI, almost all social workers in California have at least a master’s degree (and many have PhDs), and have to do a lot of field training in order to become licensed social workers.
—————–

Social workers in California must obtain licensure rather than certification to practice in the field. The California Board of Behavioral Sciences, which administers licensure, requires completion of a Master of Social Work (MSW), as well as additional courses of graduates of many accredited schools; however, California State University, Northridge and California State University, Fullerton offer complete Master of Social Work programs necessitating no additional course requirements.

http://education-portal.com/california_certification_for_social_worker.html

[NotCranky]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_Chapel_Church_ritual_abuse_case

“Two of the accusers were the grandchildren of Jack and Mary Goodall, the former being the CEO of Jack in the Box. Upon hearing the district attorney, Ed Miller, was to drop charges against Akiki due to lack of evidence, the Goodalls, who had contributed to his campaign, managed to convince him to continue prosecution. Miller then chose deputy DA Mary Avery, who was a member of the San Diego Ritual Abuse Task Force. Avery was also the founder of the San Diego Child Abuse Prevention Foundation, to which Goodal was the largest financial contributor.”

[NotCranky]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_Chapel_Church_ritual_abuse_case

“Two of the accusers were the grandchildren of Jack and Mary Goodall, the former being the CEO of Jack in the Box. Upon hearing the district attorney, Ed Miller, was to drop charges against Akiki due to lack of evidence, the Goodalls, who had contributed to his campaign, managed to convince him to continue prosecution. Miller then chose deputy DA Mary Avery, who was a member of the San Diego Ritual Abuse Task Force. Avery was also the founder of the San Diego Child Abuse Prevention Foundation, to which Goodal was the largest financial contributor.”

[NotCranky]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_Chapel_Church_ritual_abuse_case

“Two of the accusers were the grandchildren of Jack and Mary Goodall, the former being the CEO of Jack in the Box. Upon hearing the district attorney, Ed Miller, was to drop charges against Akiki due to lack of evidence, the Goodalls, who had contributed to his campaign, managed to convince him to continue prosecution. Miller then chose deputy DA Mary Avery, who was a member of the San Diego Ritual Abuse Task Force. Avery was also the founder of the San Diego Child Abuse Prevention Foundation, to which Goodal was the largest financial contributor.”

[NotCranky]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_Chapel_Church_ritual_abuse_case

“Two of the accusers were the grandchildren of Jack and Mary Goodall, the former being the CEO of Jack in the Box. Upon hearing the district attorney, Ed Miller, was to drop charges against Akiki due to lack of evidence, the Goodalls, who had contributed to his campaign, managed to convince him to continue prosecution. Miller then chose deputy DA Mary Avery, who was a member of the San Diego Ritual Abuse Task Force. Avery was also the founder of the San Diego Child Abuse Prevention Foundation, to which Goodal was the largest financial contributor.”

[Author]

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