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Veritas.
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October 17, 2012 at 7:08 AM #20197October 17, 2012 at 7:17 AM #752672
scaredyclassic
Participantwhat other binders does he have?
October 17, 2012 at 7:30 AM #752673UCGal
ParticipantI found his entire answer kind of off the topic of the original question… and VERY condescending.
– the question was about equal pay. He didn’t answer it.
– He then went on about how hard it was to find qualified women for jobs (so women aren’t as qualified? I guess women are dumber, less educated, less ambitious? Is that what he thinks?)
– And how women need special perks like flex hours (like men never need to get off early to take Jr. to soccer practice? I work in a male dominated field… I can tell you that men use flex hours FAR more than I do.)He never addressed the issue of equal pay – but his public statements about the Lilly Ledbetter act suggest he does not support equal pay for equal work.
I was bristling the entire time he was answering that question…. I kept expecting him to start talking about the mommy track and how women could never be as good as men because they’re home taking care of their menfolk.
October 17, 2012 at 7:39 AM #752674Participantat first i was visualizing pink binders, just to keep it all organized. but then I was thinking maybe the binders had a picture of a hot woman on the front, so the staff can remember these are women in there, and the pink could get confusing, if some of the staff are color blind, or they a re operating in low-light conditions.
i guess it could just be one of those circles with a cross symbolizing women, but those can be kind of confusing. sometimes you have to stopand think for a moment which sign is which. and what if the governor is screaming at youto get the woman binder, NOW, and you fumble and pick up a man binder?! Ouch!
so fnally i figured for clarity’s sake the women binders would have giant close up photos of vaginas on the covers, and breasts on the spine, and the male binders would have penises on the front and down the side.
that way the staff would know quickly which binder was which, if they got an emergency call to present the appropriate binder.
October 17, 2012 at 8:11 AM #7526755yes
ParticipantNever mind… no comment.
October 17, 2012 at 8:37 AM #752677no_such_reality
Participant[quote=UCGal]I found his entire answer kind of off the topic of the original question… and VERY condescending.
– the question was about equal pay. He didn’t answer it.
– He then went on about how hard it was to find qualified women for jobs (so women aren’t as qualified? I guess women are dumber, less educated, less ambitious? Is that what he thinks?)
– And how women need special perks like flex hours (like men never need to get off early to take Jr. to soccer practice? I work in a male dominated field… I can tell you that men use flex hours FAR more than I do.)He never addressed the issue of equal pay – but his public statements about the Lilly Ledbetter act suggest he does not support equal pay for equal work.
I was bristling the entire time he was answering that question…. I kept expecting him to start talking about the mommy track and how women could never be as good as men because they’re home taking care of their menfolk.[/quote]
I thought his answer basically showed he was going to take effort to make equal opportunity.
His comments about flexibility, and his point that companies will need to be flexible if they want the skills women have, is spot on. It’s not that women need flexibility, they WANT flexibility. Hence his comment about one wanting the flexibility for their children. What I’ve personally seen is often, women don’t even apply because they assume the hours are long, of they need to travel and they prioritize their family and business unless they make a concerted effort don’t even see them.
That said, it would have been really simple for him to say, people working the same job, accomplishing the same things, should make the equal pay.
And that becomes the crux, because the 72% number is an aggregate and not a control, job, industry, time in job measure.
Overall, I thought the debate boiled down to
“he’s a liar!”
“no, you’re the liar!”October 17, 2012 at 8:43 AM #752678Ren
ParticipantJust in case anyone ever wonders why the volume of data available on the Internet is somewhere north of a trillion gigabytes…
October 17, 2012 at 9:45 AM #752682Participant[quote=no_such_reality]
I thought his answer basically showed he was going to take effort to make equal opportunity.
His comments about flexibility, and his point that companies will need to be flexible if they want the skills women have, is spot on. It’s not that women need flexibility, they WANT flexibility. Hence his comment about one wanting the flexibility for their children. What I’ve personally seen is often, women don’t even apply because they assume the hours are long, of they need to travel and they prioritize their family and business unless they make a concerted effort don’t even see them.
That said, it would have been really simple for him to say, people working the same job, accomplishing the same things, should make the equal pay.
And that becomes the crux, because the 72% number is an aggregate and not a control, job, industry, time in job measure.
Overall, I thought the debate boiled down to
“he’s a liar!”
“no, you’re the liar!”[/quote]See – this is where you and I differ. And it seems to be common among the different perception of the answer between men and women. I’ve been taking an unofficial poll among coworkers and friends this morning. Most women felt he was condescending… and men just felt he was clueless. I guess if you’re not being condescended to – it’s less of an issue.
(Not sure if you’re male or female NSR.)
I took issue with the idea that flex work hours are ONLY needed by women. And the implication that without flex work hours, women won’t take a job. That’s bogus. In this day and age – where both parents are involved in raising the kids – both parents need flex hours. To assume it’s just for women is condescending.
Men WANT flexibility as well. It’s not just a woman issue – it’s a PARENT issue.
FWIW – my husband has selected jobs that require less travel because of his family commitments. That happened after we had kids. He’s also the one that leaves early to take our son to baseball practice. We both parent, we compare schedules and work commitments, and figure out, on a case by case basis, who’s going to take off work to take the kid to the dentist, or stay home with a sick kid. I think we’re pretty typical. To imply it’s entirely the woman’s responsibility it is an outdated notion. And his answer that flex hours are something that women want (implying it’s not important for men) is also antiquated.
October 17, 2012 at 10:14 AM #752686ParticipantTo me, the best way to understand how a man views women is to look at who he marries.
Romney married a beautiful woman whose main accomplishments are a B.A. degree in French from BYU, five sons, competing in equestrianism, and doing charitable work.
Obama married a beautiful women who has a J.D. from Harvard Law, worked in a law firm as well as in the public sector in Chicago, and had two daughters.
It is clear that Romney and Obama have extremely different views of women. I believe that Obama will fight for gender equality while Romney will fight to put women in a bind…er.
October 17, 2012 at 10:15 AM #752687SK in CV
Participant[quote=no_such_reality]I thought his answer basically showed he was going to take effort to make equal opportunity.
“he’s a liar!”
“no, you’re the liar!”[/quote]Other than the awkwardness of his claim, the bigger problem is that it was simply a lie. He didn’t make any effort to assemble his “binder full of women”. The “binder” was prepared by a coalition of 42 Massachusettes women’s organizations before he even took office, ready to be presented to whichever candidate won the election. He didn’t seek it out. He may have used it. But its preparation was not due to any effort on his part.
It was just another of the literally hundreds of lies that Romney has told during this campaign.
October 17, 2012 at 12:55 PM #752700dumbrenter
ParticipantAm I the only one around who questions this data that concluded that women these days get paid less?
The candidate who questioned the data would surely impress me.From what I am aware, there is full parity in pay for similar job types, especially in tech industry.
October 17, 2012 at 1:08 PM #752701spdrun
ParticipantI’m not equal pay for equal jobs. I’m not one of those “change the ratio” lemmings, who think that the male/female ratio should be 50/50 in every field. Equal opportunity, NOT equal outcome.
October 17, 2012 at 1:12 PM #752702poorgradstudent
Participant[quote=dumbrenter]Am I the only one around who questions this data that concluded that women these days get paid less?
The candidate who questioned the data would surely impress me.From what I am aware, there is full parity in pay for similar job types, especially in tech industry.[/quote]
Unfortunately, Obama has repeated an exaggerated figure for male-female income disparity in the US. When you factor out lifestyle and career choices and only look at apples-to-apples comparisons, women on a whole make 5-7% less than men of identical experience and education. However, you are correct it does vary by field. Tech and medicine tend to have much smaller gaps than manufacturing and financial services, for example.October 17, 2012 at 2:25 PM #752719Participant[quote=UCGal]
… I’ve been taking an unofficial poll among coworkers and friends this morning. Most women felt he was condescending…
[/quote]I’ve talked with people too and got the opposite results. Let’s chalk it up to poll bias on both our parts.
[quote=UCGal]
I took issue with the idea that flex work hours are ONLY needed by women.
[/quote]Again, not something he said, that’s something you’re reading into it. You heard that, I heard companies need to make an effort to hire and be flexible if they want a bigger talent pool.
[quote=UCGal]
And the implication that without flex work hours, women won’t take a job. That’s bogus.
[/quote]He gave an anecdote, one that ironically does reflect what I’ve personally seen. He didn’t say they wouldn’t he said “But number two, because I recognized that if you’re going to have women in the workforce that sometimes you need to be more flexible”
[quote=UCGal]
Men WANT flexibility as well. It’s not just a woman issue – it’s a PARENT issue.
[/quote]Yes it is, but the question was about women.
[quote=UCGal]
FWIW – my husband has selected jobs that require less travel because of his family commitments. That happened after we had kids. He’s also the one that leaves early to take our son to baseball practice. We both parent, we compare schedules and work commitments, and figure out, on a case by case basis, who’s going to take off work to take the kid to the dentist, or stay home with a sick kid.
[/quote]Yes, as have I. Now, are most men in the workforce like your husband and I or do those items fall more often to women?
[quote=UCGal]
To imply it’s entirely the woman’s responsibility it is an outdated notion. And his answer that flex hours are something that women want (implying it’s not important for men) is also antiquated.[/quote]Again, he didn’t say that. You’re projecting that. It was a question about women. And his answer was focused on women.
October 17, 2012 at 6:41 PM #752732Veritas
Participant“When one of President Obama’s debate coaches, Anita Dunn, worked at the White House, this is what she reportedly had to say about her experience there:
‘This place would be in court for a hostile workplace. … Because it actually fit all of the classic legal requirements for a genuinely hostile workplace to women.’”What a surprise!
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