OT – Bilingual Education

[UCGal]

[quote=nocommonsense]

I do NOT want to see learning foreign languages to become a requirment in the public schools. As I stated in my last post, you may THINK you want it now, but trust me you don’t.[/quote]

Don’t most 4 year colleges (U.S.) still require some foreign language coursework in high school? Or was that eliminated along the way.

That would make it a good idea – although not required to graduate high school.

[SK in CV]

[quote=UCGal]Don’t most 4 year colleges (U.S.) still require some foreign language coursework in high school? Or was that eliminated along the way.

[/quote]

Most all of the more competitive schools require 2 or more years of a foreign language. The UC’s require two years, recommend more, for entering freshmen. (Curiously, at least some campuses drop that requirement for community college transfers.) Unless they’ve recently changed, Stanford requires 3 years, Harvard 4.

[SK in CV]

[quote=UCGal]Don’t most 4 year colleges (U.S.) still require some foreign language coursework in high school? Or was that eliminated along the way.

[/quote]

Most all of the more competitive schools require 2 or more years of a foreign language. The UC’s require two years, recommend more, for entering freshmen. (Curiously, at least some campuses drop that requirement for community college transfers.) Unless they’ve recently changed, Stanford requires 3 years, Harvard 4.

[SK in CV]

[quote=UCGal]Don’t most 4 year colleges (U.S.) still require some foreign language coursework in high school? Or was that eliminated along the way.

[/quote]

Most all of the more competitive schools require 2 or more years of a foreign language. The UC’s require two years, recommend more, for entering freshmen. (Curiously, at least some campuses drop that requirement for community college transfers.) Unless they’ve recently changed, Stanford requires 3 years, Harvard 4.

[SK in CV]

[quote=UCGal]Don’t most 4 year colleges (U.S.) still require some foreign language coursework in high school? Or was that eliminated along the way.

[/quote]

Most all of the more competitive schools require 2 or more years of a foreign language. The UC’s require two years, recommend more, for entering freshmen. (Curiously, at least some campuses drop that requirement for community college transfers.) Unless they’ve recently changed, Stanford requires 3 years, Harvard 4.

[SK in CV]

[quote=UCGal]Don’t most 4 year colleges (U.S.) still require some foreign language coursework in high school? Or was that eliminated along the way.

[/quote]

Most all of the more competitive schools require 2 or more years of a foreign language. The UC’s require two years, recommend more, for entering freshmen. (Curiously, at least some campuses drop that requirement for community college transfers.) Unless they’ve recently changed, Stanford requires 3 years, Harvard 4.

[NotCranky]

I agree with Deadzone that multilingualism is not to worry about from a cold blooded “success” angle.
Holistically speaking I don’t see how anyone could be worse off because of it.

I am pretty sure many Americans do not want their children waisting their time getting too serious about foreign languages because it might “hold them back” from something really “important”. I think this is more likely true if an attempt to become highly bi-literate is started as late as high school. We started our kids when they were in diapers and while native English speakers we have used Spanish with them a lot at home and in social settings. We also took them to “mommy(and daddy) and me” Spanish classes, put them in a part time not very rigorous bilingual preschool and now have them enrolled in a dual language grade school program. Our kids seem to be thriving.

The administrators/teachers claim that it is proven that a better mind,relative to the individual, is developed from becoming bilingual and that while some kids will not be as strong in English as their peers early on, after 5Th grade the paybacks start. I am not swearing that this is true. I guess there is the possibility that kids will become cerebrally ambidextrous so to speak. They get a better computer than they were born with.

Being a bleeding heart liberal, I am in it to make little impoverished, multi-culti, pacifists out of them.

[NotCranky]

I agree with Deadzone that multilingualism is not to worry about from a cold blooded “success” angle.
Holistically speaking I don’t see how anyone could be worse off because of it.

I am pretty sure many Americans do not want their children waisting their time getting too serious about foreign languages because it might “hold them back” from something really “important”. I think this is more likely true if an attempt to become highly bi-literate is started as late as high school. We started our kids when they were in diapers and while native English speakers we have used Spanish with them a lot at home and in social settings. We also took them to “mommy(and daddy) and me” Spanish classes, put them in a part time not very rigorous bilingual preschool and now have them enrolled in a dual language grade school program. Our kids seem to be thriving.

The administrators/teachers claim that it is proven that a better mind,relative to the individual, is developed from becoming bilingual and that while some kids will not be as strong in English as their peers early on, after 5Th grade the paybacks start. I am not swearing that this is true. I guess there is the possibility that kids will become cerebrally ambidextrous so to speak. They get a better computer than they were born with.

Being a bleeding heart liberal, I am in it to make little impoverished, multi-culti, pacifists out of them.

[NotCranky]

I agree with Deadzone that multilingualism is not to worry about from a cold blooded “success” angle.
Holistically speaking I don’t see how anyone could be worse off because of it.

I am pretty sure many Americans do not want their children waisting their time getting too serious about foreign languages because it might “hold them back” from something really “important”. I think this is more likely true if an attempt to become highly bi-literate is started as late as high school. We started our kids when they were in diapers and while native English speakers we have used Spanish with them a lot at home and in social settings. We also took them to “mommy(and daddy) and me” Spanish classes, put them in a part time not very rigorous bilingual preschool and now have them enrolled in a dual language grade school program. Our kids seem to be thriving.

The administrators/teachers claim that it is proven that a better mind,relative to the individual, is developed from becoming bilingual and that while some kids will not be as strong in English as their peers early on, after 5Th grade the paybacks start. I am not swearing that this is true. I guess there is the possibility that kids will become cerebrally ambidextrous so to speak. They get a better computer than they were born with.

Being a bleeding heart liberal, I am in it to make little impoverished, multi-culti, pacifists out of them.

[NotCranky]

I agree with Deadzone that multilingualism is not to worry about from a cold blooded “success” angle.
Holistically speaking I don’t see how anyone could be worse off because of it.

I am pretty sure many Americans do not want their children waisting their time getting too serious about foreign languages because it might “hold them back” from something really “important”. I think this is more likely true if an attempt to become highly bi-literate is started as late as high school. We started our kids when they were in diapers and while native English speakers we have used Spanish with them a lot at home and in social settings. We also took them to “mommy(and daddy) and me” Spanish classes, put them in a part time not very rigorous bilingual preschool and now have them enrolled in a dual language grade school program. Our kids seem to be thriving.

The administrators/teachers claim that it is proven that a better mind,relative to the individual, is developed from becoming bilingual and that while some kids will not be as strong in English as their peers early on, after 5Th grade the paybacks start. I am not swearing that this is true. I guess there is the possibility that kids will become cerebrally ambidextrous so to speak. They get a better computer than they were born with.

Being a bleeding heart liberal, I am in it to make little impoverished, multi-culti, pacifists out of them.

[NotCranky]

I agree with Deadzone that multilingualism is not to worry about from a cold blooded “success” angle.
Holistically speaking I don’t see how anyone could be worse off because of it.

I am pretty sure many Americans do not want their children waisting their time getting too serious about foreign languages because it might “hold them back” from something really “important”. I think this is more likely true if an attempt to become highly bi-literate is started as late as high school. We started our kids when they were in diapers and while native English speakers we have used Spanish with them a lot at home and in social settings. We also took them to “mommy(and daddy) and me” Spanish classes, put them in a part time not very rigorous bilingual preschool and now have them enrolled in a dual language grade school program. Our kids seem to be thriving.

The administrators/teachers claim that it is proven that a better mind,relative to the individual, is developed from becoming bilingual and that while some kids will not be as strong in English as their peers early on, after 5Th grade the paybacks start. I am not swearing that this is true. I guess there is the possibility that kids will become cerebrally ambidextrous so to speak. They get a better computer than they were born with.

Being a bleeding heart liberal, I am in it to make little impoverished, multi-culti, pacifists out of them.

[CA renter]

My mom (an immigrant from Europe) had to learn English in school, and ended up being proficient in four languages: German, Russian, Spanish, and English. She loved to travel, and we lived and visited overseas when I was a kid.

There is no doubt that knowing different languages can essentially “open up the world,” enabling someone to work or live in a variety of places, and converse with many people from different backgrounds — a benefit both professionally and personally. Our kids have been taking foreign language classes since they were little, and will continue to do so for as long as we can make them. 😉

Bilingual education is complex, though, and there are many flavors that seek to do different things. For kids who do well in English and who excel academically, learning foreign languages should be required, IMHO. However, for kids who come here from different countries and who might be handicapped in both their native languages and in English, I think we are doing them a disservice if we don’t offer a rigorous English program that strives to enable them to compete with their “native” English-speaking peers.

More anecdote: I used to teach in a school with a 90%+ Hispanic population, most of whom came from (very poor) Spanish-speaking households. There were only one or two classes out of ~12 at my grade level that had “English-only” instruction, and I was one of them.

What I heard from the parents was interesting. A statistically significant number of my students were the “accidental” kids who came later in life after the parents had already raised a batch of older children. The parents told me that the first groups of children received “bilingual” education, because they trusted what the schools told them: that bilingual education was better for their kids. The parents were frustrated and disappointed with the results because, “We came here and worked hard so our kids could be successful, not so they could work in the fields and factories as cheap labor.”

It seems that the kind of biligual education their kids were getting ended up being a detriment (at least that’s how the parents saw it), and when the “accidental” kids came along, the parents vowed to do things differently, because they wanted them to go to college and get white-collar jobs.

Again, bilingual education is complex, and what I’m referring to is the education of kids in their native language with very little English instruction. The problem is that these kids are ONLY getting “native language” exposure because they hear it in their homes and neighborhoods, and then get it at school. By the time they transition into more English-intensive instruction, they are already very much behind their English-speaking peers, and many never catch up. This is especially true when kids coming into kindergarten receive the most intensive “native language” instruction, and where I think it’s most important for them to learn English. After all, the subject matter is much easier to comprehend at that level, and ALL the students are learning basic words and concepts (everyone is learning “this is a circle, this is a square” at that level). It’s only for older immigrants that I would suggest native language instruction for part of the day because it’s not as easy to translate more complex vocabulary and concepts in their minds.

IMHO, we have it backward. The younger kids should be immersed in English (if it’s not their native language), and the older kids should have a stronger bilingual transition program, so they can keep up with subjects like science and math in their own languages.

Kids who are already fairly proficient in English, and who get English instruction/immersion at home can certainly benefit from learning other languages, IMHO.

BTW, all of this is from over a decade ago, so the schools might have changed the way they do things since then.

[CA renter]

My mom (an immigrant from Europe) had to learn English in school, and ended up being proficient in four languages: German, Russian, Spanish, and English. She loved to travel, and we lived and visited overseas when I was a kid.

There is no doubt that knowing different languages can essentially “open up the world,” enabling someone to work or live in a variety of places, and converse with many people from different backgrounds — a benefit both professionally and personally. Our kids have been taking foreign language classes since they were little, and will continue to do so for as long as we can make them. 😉

Bilingual education is complex, though, and there are many flavors that seek to do different things. For kids who do well in English and who excel academically, learning foreign languages should be required, IMHO. However, for kids who come here from different countries and who might be handicapped in both their native languages and in English, I think we are doing them a disservice if we don’t offer a rigorous English program that strives to enable them to compete with their “native” English-speaking peers.

More anecdote: I used to teach in a school with a 90%+ Hispanic population, most of whom came from (very poor) Spanish-speaking households. There were only one or two classes out of ~12 at my grade level that had “English-only” instruction, and I was one of them.

What I heard from the parents was interesting. A statistically significant number of my students were the “accidental” kids who came later in life after the parents had already raised a batch of older children. The parents told me that the first groups of children received “bilingual” education, because they trusted what the schools told them: that bilingual education was better for their kids. The parents were frustrated and disappointed with the results because, “We came here and worked hard so our kids could be successful, not so they could work in the fields and factories as cheap labor.”

It seems that the kind of biligual education their kids were getting ended up being a detriment (at least that’s how the parents saw it), and when the “accidental” kids came along, the parents vowed to do things differently, because they wanted them to go to college and get white-collar jobs.

Again, bilingual education is complex, and what I’m referring to is the education of kids in their native language with very little English instruction. The problem is that these kids are ONLY getting “native language” exposure because they hear it in their homes and neighborhoods, and then get it at school. By the time they transition into more English-intensive instruction, they are already very much behind their English-speaking peers, and many never catch up. This is especially true when kids coming into kindergarten receive the most intensive “native language” instruction, and where I think it’s most important for them to learn English. After all, the subject matter is much easier to comprehend at that level, and ALL the students are learning basic words and concepts (everyone is learning “this is a circle, this is a square” at that level). It’s only for older immigrants that I would suggest native language instruction for part of the day because it’s not as easy to translate more complex vocabulary and concepts in their minds.

IMHO, we have it backward. The younger kids should be immersed in English (if it’s not their native language), and the older kids should have a stronger bilingual transition program, so they can keep up with subjects like science and math in their own languages.

Kids who are already fairly proficient in English, and who get English instruction/immersion at home can certainly benefit from learning other languages, IMHO.

BTW, all of this is from over a decade ago, so the schools might have changed the way they do things since then.

[CA renter]

My mom (an immigrant from Europe) had to learn English in school, and ended up being proficient in four languages: German, Russian, Spanish, and English. She loved to travel, and we lived and visited overseas when I was a kid.

There is no doubt that knowing different languages can essentially “open up the world,” enabling someone to work or live in a variety of places, and converse with many people from different backgrounds — a benefit both professionally and personally. Our kids have been taking foreign language classes since they were little, and will continue to do so for as long as we can make them. 😉

Bilingual education is complex, though, and there are many flavors that seek to do different things. For kids who do well in English and who excel academically, learning foreign languages should be required, IMHO. However, for kids who come here from different countries and who might be handicapped in both their native languages and in English, I think we are doing them a disservice if we don’t offer a rigorous English program that strives to enable them to compete with their “native” English-speaking peers.

More anecdote: I used to teach in a school with a 90%+ Hispanic population, most of whom came from (very poor) Spanish-speaking households. There were only one or two classes out of ~12 at my grade level that had “English-only” instruction, and I was one of them.

What I heard from the parents was interesting. A statistically significant number of my students were the “accidental” kids who came later in life after the parents had already raised a batch of older children. The parents told me that the first groups of children received “bilingual” education, because they trusted what the schools told them: that bilingual education was better for their kids. The parents were frustrated and disappointed with the results because, “We came here and worked hard so our kids could be successful, not so they could work in the fields and factories as cheap labor.”

It seems that the kind of biligual education their kids were getting ended up being a detriment (at least that’s how the parents saw it), and when the “accidental” kids came along, the parents vowed to do things differently, because they wanted them to go to college and get white-collar jobs.

Again, bilingual education is complex, and what I’m referring to is the education of kids in their native language with very little English instruction. The problem is that these kids are ONLY getting “native language” exposure because they hear it in their homes and neighborhoods, and then get it at school. By the time they transition into more English-intensive instruction, they are already very much behind their English-speaking peers, and many never catch up. This is especially true when kids coming into kindergarten receive the most intensive “native language” instruction, and where I think it’s most important for them to learn English. After all, the subject matter is much easier to comprehend at that level, and ALL the students are learning basic words and concepts (everyone is learning “this is a circle, this is a square” at that level). It’s only for older immigrants that I would suggest native language instruction for part of the day because it’s not as easy to translate more complex vocabulary and concepts in their minds.

IMHO, we have it backward. The younger kids should be immersed in English (if it’s not their native language), and the older kids should have a stronger bilingual transition program, so they can keep up with subjects like science and math in their own languages.

Kids who are already fairly proficient in English, and who get English instruction/immersion at home can certainly benefit from learning other languages, IMHO.

BTW, all of this is from over a decade ago, so the schools might have changed the way they do things since then.

[CA renter]

My mom (an immigrant from Europe) had to learn English in school, and ended up being proficient in four languages: German, Russian, Spanish, and English. She loved to travel, and we lived and visited overseas when I was a kid.

There is no doubt that knowing different languages can essentially “open up the world,” enabling someone to work or live in a variety of places, and converse with many people from different backgrounds — a benefit both professionally and personally. Our kids have been taking foreign language classes since they were little, and will continue to do so for as long as we can make them. 😉

Bilingual education is complex, though, and there are many flavors that seek to do different things. For kids who do well in English and who excel academically, learning foreign languages should be required, IMHO. However, for kids who come here from different countries and who might be handicapped in both their native languages and in English, I think we are doing them a disservice if we don’t offer a rigorous English program that strives to enable them to compete with their “native” English-speaking peers.

More anecdote: I used to teach in a school with a 90%+ Hispanic population, most of whom came from (very poor) Spanish-speaking households. There were only one or two classes out of ~12 at my grade level that had “English-only” instruction, and I was one of them.

What I heard from the parents was interesting. A statistically significant number of my students were the “accidental” kids who came later in life after the parents had already raised a batch of older children. The parents told me that the first groups of children received “bilingual” education, because they trusted what the schools told them: that bilingual education was better for their kids. The parents were frustrated and disappointed with the results because, “We came here and worked hard so our kids could be successful, not so they could work in the fields and factories as cheap labor.”

It seems that the kind of biligual education their kids were getting ended up being a detriment (at least that’s how the parents saw it), and when the “accidental” kids came along, the parents vowed to do things differently, because they wanted them to go to college and get white-collar jobs.

Again, bilingual education is complex, and what I’m referring to is the education of kids in their native language with very little English instruction. The problem is that these kids are ONLY getting “native language” exposure because they hear it in their homes and neighborhoods, and then get it at school. By the time they transition into more English-intensive instruction, they are already very much behind their English-speaking peers, and many never catch up. This is especially true when kids coming into kindergarten receive the most intensive “native language” instruction, and where I think it’s most important for them to learn English. After all, the subject matter is much easier to comprehend at that level, and ALL the students are learning basic words and concepts (everyone is learning “this is a circle, this is a square” at that level). It’s only for older immigrants that I would suggest native language instruction for part of the day because it’s not as easy to translate more complex vocabulary and concepts in their minds.

IMHO, we have it backward. The younger kids should be immersed in English (if it’s not their native language), and the older kids should have a stronger bilingual transition program, so they can keep up with subjects like science and math in their own languages.

Kids who are already fairly proficient in English, and who get English instruction/immersion at home can certainly benefit from learning other languages, IMHO.

BTW, all of this is from over a decade ago, so the schools might have changed the way they do things since then.

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