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October 21, 2010 at 1:26 PM #622344October 21, 2010 at 1:45 PM #621276
jstoesz
Participantoooh, looks like I got under some skin…maybe I will tone it down a little. There is always some degree of hyperbole in what I am saying, and I apologize. I am arguing in ideals rather than pure on the ground implementation. That is always a messier sort of thing.
[quote]Either the public school in your area (many actually provide choices within your district) or you can elect to send them to private school. Or even home school them. That choice is yours.[/quote]
So the state takes my tax money, and I have either the choice of a state mandated secular humanist education or I can forfeit it and pay after tax dollar on a private school…Sounds a bit like state coercion towards the secular humanist school. And the notion that our schools must be absent any mention of God as a real and important part of our lives is indeed a federal mandate…
[quote]But with minor exception, that Muslim school (or any other parochial school) cannot receive direct federal or state funding. [/quote]
There is that coercion…again…[quote](And the assertion that the absence of religion is a religion is absurd. In the rhetorical sense, it begs the question. It is a logical fallacy which assumes that everyone must have faith. I don’t, thank you. I don’t begrudge you having yours. It simply isn’t mine.)[/quote]
Let me state how I define religion…I define it as a faith and devotion to something that one can not prove. Can you prove God does not exist? Yeah I can not prove that he does either…so that is where that faith comes in. I am devoted to God, while you are devoted to your intellect and capacity for reason (I can respect that by the way).
October 21, 2010 at 1:45 PM #621358Participantoooh, looks like I got under some skin…maybe I will tone it down a little. There is always some degree of hyperbole in what I am saying, and I apologize. I am arguing in ideals rather than pure on the ground implementation. That is always a messier sort of thing.
[quote]Either the public school in your area (many actually provide choices within your district) or you can elect to send them to private school. Or even home school them. That choice is yours.[/quote]
So the state takes my tax money, and I have either the choice of a state mandated secular humanist education or I can forfeit it and pay after tax dollar on a private school…Sounds a bit like state coercion towards the secular humanist school. And the notion that our schools must be absent any mention of God as a real and important part of our lives is indeed a federal mandate…
[quote]But with minor exception, that Muslim school (or any other parochial school) cannot receive direct federal or state funding. [/quote]
There is that coercion…again…[quote](And the assertion that the absence of religion is a religion is absurd. In the rhetorical sense, it begs the question. It is a logical fallacy which assumes that everyone must have faith. I don’t, thank you. I don’t begrudge you having yours. It simply isn’t mine.)[/quote]
Let me state how I define religion…I define it as a faith and devotion to something that one can not prove. Can you prove God does not exist? Yeah I can not prove that he does either…so that is where that faith comes in. I am devoted to God, while you are devoted to your intellect and capacity for reason (I can respect that by the way).
October 21, 2010 at 1:45 PM #621919Participantoooh, looks like I got under some skin…maybe I will tone it down a little. There is always some degree of hyperbole in what I am saying, and I apologize. I am arguing in ideals rather than pure on the ground implementation. That is always a messier sort of thing.
[quote]Either the public school in your area (many actually provide choices within your district) or you can elect to send them to private school. Or even home school them. That choice is yours.[/quote]
So the state takes my tax money, and I have either the choice of a state mandated secular humanist education or I can forfeit it and pay after tax dollar on a private school…Sounds a bit like state coercion towards the secular humanist school. And the notion that our schools must be absent any mention of God as a real and important part of our lives is indeed a federal mandate…
[quote]But with minor exception, that Muslim school (or any other parochial school) cannot receive direct federal or state funding. [/quote]
There is that coercion…again…[quote](And the assertion that the absence of religion is a religion is absurd. In the rhetorical sense, it begs the question. It is a logical fallacy which assumes that everyone must have faith. I don’t, thank you. I don’t begrudge you having yours. It simply isn’t mine.)[/quote]
Let me state how I define religion…I define it as a faith and devotion to something that one can not prove. Can you prove God does not exist? Yeah I can not prove that he does either…so that is where that faith comes in. I am devoted to God, while you are devoted to your intellect and capacity for reason (I can respect that by the way).
October 21, 2010 at 1:45 PM #622041Participantoooh, looks like I got under some skin…maybe I will tone it down a little. There is always some degree of hyperbole in what I am saying, and I apologize. I am arguing in ideals rather than pure on the ground implementation. That is always a messier sort of thing.
[quote]Either the public school in your area (many actually provide choices within your district) or you can elect to send them to private school. Or even home school them. That choice is yours.[/quote]
So the state takes my tax money, and I have either the choice of a state mandated secular humanist education or I can forfeit it and pay after tax dollar on a private school…Sounds a bit like state coercion towards the secular humanist school. And the notion that our schools must be absent any mention of God as a real and important part of our lives is indeed a federal mandate…
[quote]But with minor exception, that Muslim school (or any other parochial school) cannot receive direct federal or state funding. [/quote]
There is that coercion…again…[quote](And the assertion that the absence of religion is a religion is absurd. In the rhetorical sense, it begs the question. It is a logical fallacy which assumes that everyone must have faith. I don’t, thank you. I don’t begrudge you having yours. It simply isn’t mine.)[/quote]
Let me state how I define religion…I define it as a faith and devotion to something that one can not prove. Can you prove God does not exist? Yeah I can not prove that he does either…so that is where that faith comes in. I am devoted to God, while you are devoted to your intellect and capacity for reason (I can respect that by the way).
October 21, 2010 at 1:45 PM #622360Participantoooh, looks like I got under some skin…maybe I will tone it down a little. There is always some degree of hyperbole in what I am saying, and I apologize. I am arguing in ideals rather than pure on the ground implementation. That is always a messier sort of thing.
[quote]Either the public school in your area (many actually provide choices within your district) or you can elect to send them to private school. Or even home school them. That choice is yours.[/quote]
So the state takes my tax money, and I have either the choice of a state mandated secular humanist education or I can forfeit it and pay after tax dollar on a private school…Sounds a bit like state coercion towards the secular humanist school. And the notion that our schools must be absent any mention of God as a real and important part of our lives is indeed a federal mandate…
[quote]But with minor exception, that Muslim school (or any other parochial school) cannot receive direct federal or state funding. [/quote]
There is that coercion…again…[quote](And the assertion that the absence of religion is a religion is absurd. In the rhetorical sense, it begs the question. It is a logical fallacy which assumes that everyone must have faith. I don’t, thank you. I don’t begrudge you having yours. It simply isn’t mine.)[/quote]
Let me state how I define religion…I define it as a faith and devotion to something that one can not prove. Can you prove God does not exist? Yeah I can not prove that he does either…so that is where that faith comes in. I am devoted to God, while you are devoted to your intellect and capacity for reason (I can respect that by the way).
October 21, 2010 at 2:27 PM #621307SK in CV
Participant[quote=jstoesz]
So the state takes my tax money, and I have either the choice of a state mandated secular humanist education or I can forfeit it and pay after tax dollar on a private school…Sounds a bit like state coercion towards the secular humanist school. And the notion that our schools must be absent any mention of God as a real and important part of our lives is indeed a federal mandate…[/quote]
You can choose to view it as coercion, or state provided choices. The state (little “s”) also provides you with police and fire protection, national defense, regulatory bodies for banks and investment houses, to help protect and ensure the foods and products you buy are safe, park and recreation facilities, roads and public transportation and much more. Some of these you will use directly, some indirectly, some not at all. Some you may support, some you may vehemently disagree with. But you don’t get to choose whether you pay for them, you only get to choose, through the election process, whether those services will be funded. If enough people feel the same way as you, maybe some of these services will be defunded. Public schools are one of the services that have been provided for many generations. And for more than 60 years, the constitution has been interpreted to prohibit the funding of religious instruction in public schools. There is nothing prohibiting you from providing that instruction outside the public school system. Just as there is nothing prohibiting you from providing outside isntruction for many subjects which have also (though for different reasons) been defunded in many school districts. Like music, art, drama, and physical education. No coercion involved. Nobody is coercing you, or your children to be godless athiests. That’s the point of the separation. There is no government coercion.
I don’t really know much about secular humanism. I’m reasonably sure it is not a subject taught in public schools. Certainly not in my kid’s schools. Unless you classify science as secular humanism, that argument fails.
October 21, 2010 at 2:27 PM #621388Participant[quote=jstoesz]
So the state takes my tax money, and I have either the choice of a state mandated secular humanist education or I can forfeit it and pay after tax dollar on a private school…Sounds a bit like state coercion towards the secular humanist school. And the notion that our schools must be absent any mention of God as a real and important part of our lives is indeed a federal mandate…[/quote]
You can choose to view it as coercion, or state provided choices. The state (little “s”) also provides you with police and fire protection, national defense, regulatory bodies for banks and investment houses, to help protect and ensure the foods and products you buy are safe, park and recreation facilities, roads and public transportation and much more. Some of these you will use directly, some indirectly, some not at all. Some you may support, some you may vehemently disagree with. But you don’t get to choose whether you pay for them, you only get to choose, through the election process, whether those services will be funded. If enough people feel the same way as you, maybe some of these services will be defunded. Public schools are one of the services that have been provided for many generations. And for more than 60 years, the constitution has been interpreted to prohibit the funding of religious instruction in public schools. There is nothing prohibiting you from providing that instruction outside the public school system. Just as there is nothing prohibiting you from providing outside isntruction for many subjects which have also (though for different reasons) been defunded in many school districts. Like music, art, drama, and physical education. No coercion involved. Nobody is coercing you, or your children to be godless athiests. That’s the point of the separation. There is no government coercion.
I don’t really know much about secular humanism. I’m reasonably sure it is not a subject taught in public schools. Certainly not in my kid’s schools. Unless you classify science as secular humanism, that argument fails.
October 21, 2010 at 2:27 PM #621949Participant[quote=jstoesz]
So the state takes my tax money, and I have either the choice of a state mandated secular humanist education or I can forfeit it and pay after tax dollar on a private school…Sounds a bit like state coercion towards the secular humanist school. And the notion that our schools must be absent any mention of God as a real and important part of our lives is indeed a federal mandate…[/quote]
You can choose to view it as coercion, or state provided choices. The state (little “s”) also provides you with police and fire protection, national defense, regulatory bodies for banks and investment houses, to help protect and ensure the foods and products you buy are safe, park and recreation facilities, roads and public transportation and much more. Some of these you will use directly, some indirectly, some not at all. Some you may support, some you may vehemently disagree with. But you don’t get to choose whether you pay for them, you only get to choose, through the election process, whether those services will be funded. If enough people feel the same way as you, maybe some of these services will be defunded. Public schools are one of the services that have been provided for many generations. And for more than 60 years, the constitution has been interpreted to prohibit the funding of religious instruction in public schools. There is nothing prohibiting you from providing that instruction outside the public school system. Just as there is nothing prohibiting you from providing outside isntruction for many subjects which have also (though for different reasons) been defunded in many school districts. Like music, art, drama, and physical education. No coercion involved. Nobody is coercing you, or your children to be godless athiests. That’s the point of the separation. There is no government coercion.
I don’t really know much about secular humanism. I’m reasonably sure it is not a subject taught in public schools. Certainly not in my kid’s schools. Unless you classify science as secular humanism, that argument fails.
October 21, 2010 at 2:27 PM #622071Participant[quote=jstoesz]
So the state takes my tax money, and I have either the choice of a state mandated secular humanist education or I can forfeit it and pay after tax dollar on a private school…Sounds a bit like state coercion towards the secular humanist school. And the notion that our schools must be absent any mention of God as a real and important part of our lives is indeed a federal mandate…[/quote]
You can choose to view it as coercion, or state provided choices. The state (little “s”) also provides you with police and fire protection, national defense, regulatory bodies for banks and investment houses, to help protect and ensure the foods and products you buy are safe, park and recreation facilities, roads and public transportation and much more. Some of these you will use directly, some indirectly, some not at all. Some you may support, some you may vehemently disagree with. But you don’t get to choose whether you pay for them, you only get to choose, through the election process, whether those services will be funded. If enough people feel the same way as you, maybe some of these services will be defunded. Public schools are one of the services that have been provided for many generations. And for more than 60 years, the constitution has been interpreted to prohibit the funding of religious instruction in public schools. There is nothing prohibiting you from providing that instruction outside the public school system. Just as there is nothing prohibiting you from providing outside isntruction for many subjects which have also (though for different reasons) been defunded in many school districts. Like music, art, drama, and physical education. No coercion involved. Nobody is coercing you, or your children to be godless athiests. That’s the point of the separation. There is no government coercion.
I don’t really know much about secular humanism. I’m reasonably sure it is not a subject taught in public schools. Certainly not in my kid’s schools. Unless you classify science as secular humanism, that argument fails.
October 21, 2010 at 2:27 PM #622390Participant[quote=jstoesz]
So the state takes my tax money, and I have either the choice of a state mandated secular humanist education or I can forfeit it and pay after tax dollar on a private school…Sounds a bit like state coercion towards the secular humanist school. And the notion that our schools must be absent any mention of God as a real and important part of our lives is indeed a federal mandate…[/quote]
You can choose to view it as coercion, or state provided choices. The state (little “s”) also provides you with police and fire protection, national defense, regulatory bodies for banks and investment houses, to help protect and ensure the foods and products you buy are safe, park and recreation facilities, roads and public transportation and much more. Some of these you will use directly, some indirectly, some not at all. Some you may support, some you may vehemently disagree with. But you don’t get to choose whether you pay for them, you only get to choose, through the election process, whether those services will be funded. If enough people feel the same way as you, maybe some of these services will be defunded. Public schools are one of the services that have been provided for many generations. And for more than 60 years, the constitution has been interpreted to prohibit the funding of religious instruction in public schools. There is nothing prohibiting you from providing that instruction outside the public school system. Just as there is nothing prohibiting you from providing outside isntruction for many subjects which have also (though for different reasons) been defunded in many school districts. Like music, art, drama, and physical education. No coercion involved. Nobody is coercing you, or your children to be godless athiests. That’s the point of the separation. There is no government coercion.
I don’t really know much about secular humanism. I’m reasonably sure it is not a subject taught in public schools. Certainly not in my kid’s schools. Unless you classify science as secular humanism, that argument fails.
October 21, 2010 at 2:53 PM #621327gandalf
ParticipantThat is excellent, SK.
October 21, 2010 at 2:53 PM #621408ParticipantThat is excellent, SK.
October 21, 2010 at 2:53 PM #621969ParticipantThat is excellent, SK.
October 21, 2010 at 2:53 PM #622091ParticipantThat is excellent, SK.
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