ObamaCare…coming soon

[Allan from Fallbrook]

SK: What the leftists in DC want us to ignore in every one of their programs, is the “socialization” inherent to the various “solutions”, be it GM’s takeover, the health care “fix”, the stimulus package, etc.

If Bush were actively seeking the massive expansion of executive and legislative powers that Obama and the Dems are, the MSM would be screaming bloody murder. As it is, we sit here passively and are lied to and, sadly, we believe.

Obama’s answer to everything seems to be: More Government.

Came across this great quote, which really sums things up for me:

“You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.”
~~~~ Dr. Adrian Rogers, 1931

[SK in CV]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]SK: What the leftists in DC want us to ignore in every one of their programs, is the “socialization” inherent to the various “solutions”, be it GM’s takeover, the health care “fix”, the stimulus package, etc.

If Bush were actively seeking the massive expansion of executive and legislative powers that Obama and the Dems are, the MSM would be screaming bloody murder. As it is, we sit here passively and are lied to and, sadly, we believe.

Obama’s answer to everything seems to be: More Government.

Came across this great quote, which really sums things up for me:

“You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.”
~~~~ Dr. Adrian Rogers, 1931[/quote]

There is nothing socialist about the proposed plans. None of the doctors will be government employees. None of the nurses. None of the hospitals will be owned and operated by the government. (The only place that will occur is where it already occurs, the existing socialized plans for veterans, the VA health care system.) There will still be private insurance (claims that private insurance will be outlawed under the new plan are created from whole cloth, there is nothing in any of the currently proposed plans that does that.) The arguments against the plans (which are now supported by the AMA) sound eerily like the the arguments against medicare, and the slippery slope that it was supposed to bring. None of the horrors predicted 46 years ago came true.

Free market has failed. Rather than more people having access to the best health care professionals and facilities in the world, fewer and fewer do. Every week, 44,000 lose health insurance coverage. Another 17,000 file for bankruptcy protection because of medical bills. Each week more than 400 people die because they lack medical insurance coverage. The existing health care financing model is irreparably broken.

[SK in CV]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]SK: What the leftists in DC want us to ignore in every one of their programs, is the “socialization” inherent to the various “solutions”, be it GM’s takeover, the health care “fix”, the stimulus package, etc.

If Bush were actively seeking the massive expansion of executive and legislative powers that Obama and the Dems are, the MSM would be screaming bloody murder. As it is, we sit here passively and are lied to and, sadly, we believe.

Obama’s answer to everything seems to be: More Government.

Came across this great quote, which really sums things up for me:

“You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.”
~~~~ Dr. Adrian Rogers, 1931[/quote]

There is nothing socialist about the proposed plans. None of the doctors will be government employees. None of the nurses. None of the hospitals will be owned and operated by the government. (The only place that will occur is where it already occurs, the existing socialized plans for veterans, the VA health care system.) There will still be private insurance (claims that private insurance will be outlawed under the new plan are created from whole cloth, there is nothing in any of the currently proposed plans that does that.) The arguments against the plans (which are now supported by the AMA) sound eerily like the the arguments against medicare, and the slippery slope that it was supposed to bring. None of the horrors predicted 46 years ago came true.

Free market has failed. Rather than more people having access to the best health care professionals and facilities in the world, fewer and fewer do. Every week, 44,000 lose health insurance coverage. Another 17,000 file for bankruptcy protection because of medical bills. Each week more than 400 people die because they lack medical insurance coverage. The existing health care financing model is irreparably broken.

[SK in CV]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]SK: What the leftists in DC want us to ignore in every one of their programs, is the “socialization” inherent to the various “solutions”, be it GM’s takeover, the health care “fix”, the stimulus package, etc.

If Bush were actively seeking the massive expansion of executive and legislative powers that Obama and the Dems are, the MSM would be screaming bloody murder. As it is, we sit here passively and are lied to and, sadly, we believe.

Obama’s answer to everything seems to be: More Government.

Came across this great quote, which really sums things up for me:

“You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.”
~~~~ Dr. Adrian Rogers, 1931[/quote]

There is nothing socialist about the proposed plans. None of the doctors will be government employees. None of the nurses. None of the hospitals will be owned and operated by the government. (The only place that will occur is where it already occurs, the existing socialized plans for veterans, the VA health care system.) There will still be private insurance (claims that private insurance will be outlawed under the new plan are created from whole cloth, there is nothing in any of the currently proposed plans that does that.) The arguments against the plans (which are now supported by the AMA) sound eerily like the the arguments against medicare, and the slippery slope that it was supposed to bring. None of the horrors predicted 46 years ago came true.

Free market has failed. Rather than more people having access to the best health care professionals and facilities in the world, fewer and fewer do. Every week, 44,000 lose health insurance coverage. Another 17,000 file for bankruptcy protection because of medical bills. Each week more than 400 people die because they lack medical insurance coverage. The existing health care financing model is irreparably broken.

[SK in CV]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]SK: What the leftists in DC want us to ignore in every one of their programs, is the “socialization” inherent to the various “solutions”, be it GM’s takeover, the health care “fix”, the stimulus package, etc.

If Bush were actively seeking the massive expansion of executive and legislative powers that Obama and the Dems are, the MSM would be screaming bloody murder. As it is, we sit here passively and are lied to and, sadly, we believe.

Obama’s answer to everything seems to be: More Government.

Came across this great quote, which really sums things up for me:

“You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.”
~~~~ Dr. Adrian Rogers, 1931[/quote]

There is nothing socialist about the proposed plans. None of the doctors will be government employees. None of the nurses. None of the hospitals will be owned and operated by the government. (The only place that will occur is where it already occurs, the existing socialized plans for veterans, the VA health care system.) There will still be private insurance (claims that private insurance will be outlawed under the new plan are created from whole cloth, there is nothing in any of the currently proposed plans that does that.) The arguments against the plans (which are now supported by the AMA) sound eerily like the the arguments against medicare, and the slippery slope that it was supposed to bring. None of the horrors predicted 46 years ago came true.

Free market has failed. Rather than more people having access to the best health care professionals and facilities in the world, fewer and fewer do. Every week, 44,000 lose health insurance coverage. Another 17,000 file for bankruptcy protection because of medical bills. Each week more than 400 people die because they lack medical insurance coverage. The existing health care financing model is irreparably broken.

[SK in CV]

[quote=Allan from Fallbrook]SK: What the leftists in DC want us to ignore in every one of their programs, is the “socialization” inherent to the various “solutions”, be it GM’s takeover, the health care “fix”, the stimulus package, etc.

If Bush were actively seeking the massive expansion of executive and legislative powers that Obama and the Dems are, the MSM would be screaming bloody murder. As it is, we sit here passively and are lied to and, sadly, we believe.

Obama’s answer to everything seems to be: More Government.

Came across this great quote, which really sums things up for me:

“You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.”
~~~~ Dr. Adrian Rogers, 1931[/quote]

There is nothing socialist about the proposed plans. None of the doctors will be government employees. None of the nurses. None of the hospitals will be owned and operated by the government. (The only place that will occur is where it already occurs, the existing socialized plans for veterans, the VA health care system.) There will still be private insurance (claims that private insurance will be outlawed under the new plan are created from whole cloth, there is nothing in any of the currently proposed plans that does that.) The arguments against the plans (which are now supported by the AMA) sound eerily like the the arguments against medicare, and the slippery slope that it was supposed to bring. None of the horrors predicted 46 years ago came true.

Free market has failed. Rather than more people having access to the best health care professionals and facilities in the world, fewer and fewer do. Every week, 44,000 lose health insurance coverage. Another 17,000 file for bankruptcy protection because of medical bills. Each week more than 400 people die because they lack medical insurance coverage. The existing health care financing model is irreparably broken.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

SK: Except that Medicare is effectively going broke: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/01/AR2006050101448.html

And the Medicare model is broken. Medicare costs have spiraled out of control, especially in recent years.

The free market has not failed, it was never allowed to function AS a free market. The AMA’s support is a chimera, in that they are essentially a restrictive form of organized labor. Don’t even get me started on the VA: As a vet, I will tell you that the VA is a nightmare.

I don’t fully understand how you can duck the “socialized” question, when Obama is heavily touting a single-payer system as being superior.

I don’t know enough about the details of the plan to speak to the issue of whether or not private insurance will be outlawed, but would say that it does sound ridiculous, on it’s face.

It’s far more interesting to me that the Dems, who now effectively control the Executive Office and both the Senate and the House, can’t seem to pass to pass this bill. With Franken’s admission into the Senate, a filibuster effectively becomes moot (yes, I realize two key Dem Senators are out for health related reasons, including Ted Kennedy), so what’s the problem?

[Allan from Fallbrook]

SK: Except that Medicare is effectively going broke: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/01/AR2006050101448.html

And the Medicare model is broken. Medicare costs have spiraled out of control, especially in recent years.

The free market has not failed, it was never allowed to function AS a free market. The AMA’s support is a chimera, in that they are essentially a restrictive form of organized labor. Don’t even get me started on the VA: As a vet, I will tell you that the VA is a nightmare.

I don’t fully understand how you can duck the “socialized” question, when Obama is heavily touting a single-payer system as being superior.

I don’t know enough about the details of the plan to speak to the issue of whether or not private insurance will be outlawed, but would say that it does sound ridiculous, on it’s face.

It’s far more interesting to me that the Dems, who now effectively control the Executive Office and both the Senate and the House, can’t seem to pass to pass this bill. With Franken’s admission into the Senate, a filibuster effectively becomes moot (yes, I realize two key Dem Senators are out for health related reasons, including Ted Kennedy), so what’s the problem?

[Allan from Fallbrook]

SK: Except that Medicare is effectively going broke: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/01/AR2006050101448.html

And the Medicare model is broken. Medicare costs have spiraled out of control, especially in recent years.

The free market has not failed, it was never allowed to function AS a free market. The AMA’s support is a chimera, in that they are essentially a restrictive form of organized labor. Don’t even get me started on the VA: As a vet, I will tell you that the VA is a nightmare.

I don’t fully understand how you can duck the “socialized” question, when Obama is heavily touting a single-payer system as being superior.

I don’t know enough about the details of the plan to speak to the issue of whether or not private insurance will be outlawed, but would say that it does sound ridiculous, on it’s face.

It’s far more interesting to me that the Dems, who now effectively control the Executive Office and both the Senate and the House, can’t seem to pass to pass this bill. With Franken’s admission into the Senate, a filibuster effectively becomes moot (yes, I realize two key Dem Senators are out for health related reasons, including Ted Kennedy), so what’s the problem?

[Allan from Fallbrook]

SK: Except that Medicare is effectively going broke: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/01/AR2006050101448.html

And the Medicare model is broken. Medicare costs have spiraled out of control, especially in recent years.

The free market has not failed, it was never allowed to function AS a free market. The AMA’s support is a chimera, in that they are essentially a restrictive form of organized labor. Don’t even get me started on the VA: As a vet, I will tell you that the VA is a nightmare.

I don’t fully understand how you can duck the “socialized” question, when Obama is heavily touting a single-payer system as being superior.

I don’t know enough about the details of the plan to speak to the issue of whether or not private insurance will be outlawed, but would say that it does sound ridiculous, on it’s face.

It’s far more interesting to me that the Dems, who now effectively control the Executive Office and both the Senate and the House, can’t seem to pass to pass this bill. With Franken’s admission into the Senate, a filibuster effectively becomes moot (yes, I realize two key Dem Senators are out for health related reasons, including Ted Kennedy), so what’s the problem?

[Allan from Fallbrook]

SK: Except that Medicare is effectively going broke: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/01/AR2006050101448.html

And the Medicare model is broken. Medicare costs have spiraled out of control, especially in recent years.

The free market has not failed, it was never allowed to function AS a free market. The AMA’s support is a chimera, in that they are essentially a restrictive form of organized labor. Don’t even get me started on the VA: As a vet, I will tell you that the VA is a nightmare.

I don’t fully understand how you can duck the “socialized” question, when Obama is heavily touting a single-payer system as being superior.

I don’t know enough about the details of the plan to speak to the issue of whether or not private insurance will be outlawed, but would say that it does sound ridiculous, on it’s face.

It’s far more interesting to me that the Dems, who now effectively control the Executive Office and both the Senate and the House, can’t seem to pass to pass this bill. With Franken’s admission into the Senate, a filibuster effectively becomes moot (yes, I realize two key Dem Senators are out for health related reasons, including Ted Kennedy), so what’s the problem?

[blahblahblah]

Free market has failed.

Actually it’s a little different than that — the system is failing because the healthcare “market” is ill-suited for a capitalist model. Capitalism works best when the time between the purchase of a good or service and the time when the purchaser can evaluate the quality of the good or service is short. Shoes are a good example, you choose them, wear them, and evaluate whether or not you like them. The market will tend to favor shoe companies who please their customers the most.

Now consider health insurance. You choose health insurance and pay for 10 or 15 years before getting cancer. Your provider refuses payment or just kicks you off because you once had acne. Now you won’t choose that provider again, but guess what — NO ONE ELSE WILL INSURE YOU because you have cancer. So you die and the insurance company still has your money.

This illustrates another problem with the healthcare “market”. Not everyone is allowed in. In the shoe market, anyone with money may purchase shoes. But in the healthcare market you can be denied entry through no fault of your own (and please spare us the stories of how everyone with cancer eats bad food or lives an unhealthy lifestyle).

Will this ever change in the US? I doubt it. People are going to have to get used to just not having healthcare and not being surprised when their insurance kicks them off or refuses to pay for treatment. That’s just the way it is here.

[blahblahblah]

Free market has failed.

Actually it’s a little different than that — the system is failing because the healthcare “market” is ill-suited for a capitalist model. Capitalism works best when the time between the purchase of a good or service and the time when the purchaser can evaluate the quality of the good or service is short. Shoes are a good example, you choose them, wear them, and evaluate whether or not you like them. The market will tend to favor shoe companies who please their customers the most.

Now consider health insurance. You choose health insurance and pay for 10 or 15 years before getting cancer. Your provider refuses payment or just kicks you off because you once had acne. Now you won’t choose that provider again, but guess what — NO ONE ELSE WILL INSURE YOU because you have cancer. So you die and the insurance company still has your money.

This illustrates another problem with the healthcare “market”. Not everyone is allowed in. In the shoe market, anyone with money may purchase shoes. But in the healthcare market you can be denied entry through no fault of your own (and please spare us the stories of how everyone with cancer eats bad food or lives an unhealthy lifestyle).

Will this ever change in the US? I doubt it. People are going to have to get used to just not having healthcare and not being surprised when their insurance kicks them off or refuses to pay for treatment. That’s just the way it is here.

[blahblahblah]

Free market has failed.

Actually it’s a little different than that — the system is failing because the healthcare “market” is ill-suited for a capitalist model. Capitalism works best when the time between the purchase of a good or service and the time when the purchaser can evaluate the quality of the good or service is short. Shoes are a good example, you choose them, wear them, and evaluate whether or not you like them. The market will tend to favor shoe companies who please their customers the most.

Now consider health insurance. You choose health insurance and pay for 10 or 15 years before getting cancer. Your provider refuses payment or just kicks you off because you once had acne. Now you won’t choose that provider again, but guess what — NO ONE ELSE WILL INSURE YOU because you have cancer. So you die and the insurance company still has your money.

This illustrates another problem with the healthcare “market”. Not everyone is allowed in. In the shoe market, anyone with money may purchase shoes. But in the healthcare market you can be denied entry through no fault of your own (and please spare us the stories of how everyone with cancer eats bad food or lives an unhealthy lifestyle).

Will this ever change in the US? I doubt it. People are going to have to get used to just not having healthcare and not being surprised when their insurance kicks them off or refuses to pay for treatment. That’s just the way it is here.

[blahblahblah]

Free market has failed.

Actually it’s a little different than that — the system is failing because the healthcare “market” is ill-suited for a capitalist model. Capitalism works best when the time between the purchase of a good or service and the time when the purchaser can evaluate the quality of the good or service is short. Shoes are a good example, you choose them, wear them, and evaluate whether or not you like them. The market will tend to favor shoe companies who please their customers the most.

Now consider health insurance. You choose health insurance and pay for 10 or 15 years before getting cancer. Your provider refuses payment or just kicks you off because you once had acne. Now you won’t choose that provider again, but guess what — NO ONE ELSE WILL INSURE YOU because you have cancer. So you die and the insurance company still has your money.

This illustrates another problem with the healthcare “market”. Not everyone is allowed in. In the shoe market, anyone with money may purchase shoes. But in the healthcare market you can be denied entry through no fault of your own (and please spare us the stories of how everyone with cancer eats bad food or lives an unhealthy lifestyle).

Will this ever change in the US? I doubt it. People are going to have to get used to just not having healthcare and not being surprised when their insurance kicks them off or refuses to pay for treatment. That’s just the way it is here.

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