Nugent: Gun-free zones are recipe for disaster

[TheBreeze]

“Now I fully expect all of the “Ivory Tower pansy’s” out there will attack me and call me a “John Wayne” fighting dude,… you couldnt be further from the truth, I would hate to be thrust into a situation like that last week, but I’ll be damned if I would let some little punk kill me or others like scared rabbits.”

You’re pretty brave on the Interweb.

[Bugs]

Did anyone happen to catch the news blurb a couple weeks ago where a 73-year old retired Marine who was on vacation in Costa Rica (I think) killed an armed mugger with his bare hands? Mugger holds up a tour group and this guy goes for him, gets him into a chokehold, and punched his ticket.

I understand one of the college instructors at VT walked forward instead of cowering. The news said something about him being a Holocost survivor. He still got killed but maybe that wouldn’t have happened had he not been the only one.

I think the will to act is a lot more important than the tools at hand. A person who isn’t mentally prepared to pull the trigger when they have the chance is a lot better off not carrying. I think that includes more people than it excludes. If you ever watch those reality shows like “Wildest Police Videos” you’ll see that sometimes even an armed police officer facing a threat will turn and run instead of pulling their weapon and shooting it out. Flight or fight. Nobody really knows until they’re there.

[speedingpullet]

I know I couldn’t use a gun!
I’m a total klutz with anything involving moving parts… I’d probably end up firing through my wall and shooting my next door neighbours (stucco has the stopping power of wet cardboard), if I was unfortunate enough to be the victim of a home invasion.

[Wiley]

Bugs,

I disagree about a gun owner needing regular training to be competent in his shooting ability to the point of protecting themselves. I have a 12ga shotgun under my bed loaded with 00buck. As to a handgun I agree with you.

Now to a gun trivia question…what the safest gun there is to carry?

The one you have with you at the time someones shooting at you.

[anxvariety]

That Nugent article is good.. I think both sides have strong arguments, I sincerely don’t know how someone can say they are 100% on either side without saying ‘just because’ as part of their argument… I do believe that the means protecting liberty and democracy should be a priority #2(1st ammendment #1) but I’d like to see an objective study measuring the total deaths… because that’s what we’re talking about right is what has fewer deaths? Even with results on 100 different objective studies, we’d still have a strong line of division because opinions on this almost seem like something that run blood deep..

That’s all I have to add to the guns subject, I do have more to add to the VT subthread..

These twisted, sick minded people are cowards first and foremost, never forget that.

That sounds cool and stuff.. but the dude did walk onto a campus and fire from 2 guns killing 32 and then himself.. I wouldn’t exactly say that fits into any definition of cowardly.. and don’t assume I think it’s heroic, I’m just suggesting – how about we call it what it is, and pitch straight.. I almost suspect that people that call this kid a coward, are in denial and want to try and circus clown everyone else away from a glaring lesson here – like u said, one person can do a lot of damage when put into a cage/corner(you disagree with what this kid did(me too)? but have you thought about whats your cage look like, same as his?), and yeah this kid got a lot of attention negative, you didn’t decide, he did… along with that he hung the media on their own rope.. don’t you think the kids that teased him feel a little guilty? I think they do, if not they’re probably spouting out this “coward” bullshit that dramatic types love to try and stitch into reality..

Most people that who call this kid a coward probably call “suicide bombers” cowards too.. when they strap everything they possibly can to their body to help protect their land and whatever is important to them(see: cultural relativism) so yeah there you go, that’s what you get when you try and survive in a world with big bully.

Honestly, I don’t know where I stand on violence… but I’m positive I’d love to contribute in any way possible to preventing another school shotting from happening again… Why do I not understand my own position on violence? I do not like blood, I do not like inflicting pain on any other person or even animals or bugs at that.. but as Chomsky says:
“I’m of course opposed to terror; any rational human is. But if we are serious about the question of terror; serious about the question of violence, we have to recgnize that it is a tactical issue. As a matter of fact, tactical isssues are basically moral issues; they have to do with human conseqences. And if we are interested in diminishing the amount of violence in the world; it’s at least argueable, in fact sometimes true. That a terrorictic act does diminish the amount of violence in the world. Hence, a person who is opposed to violence will not be be opposed to a terrroristc act.” -Noam Chomsky

Call it what you will.. our doublespeak world of news and political correctness/insanity has hijacked the word ‘terrorism’ and uses it on anything involving a muslim or arab.. I am reluctant to accept it most times, but I label this VT shooting as terrorism.. look at the word, it’s using terror to coerce.. I think this qualifies… especially when considering, that he had a manifesto that got airtime!!

How about we teach todays kids to stop teasing the other kids… what better way to push a less fortunate kid into silence / insanity than teasing!! I had it happen, and it’s not fun.. kids are like little coyotes and team up to share the kill.. Some kids don’t mature as quickly/faster, or are able to deal with issues of confidence and expression at the same level as others… or like my problem ‘didn’t watch enough TV to know what style was or how to blend in’.. Do you think this VT shooter, was a virgin? I do.. when do you think he last had any human touch? Yeah, try living inside your own head 24 hours a day with no socialization for 20+ years… Not saying he’s not a scumbag for not trying to fix his problem constructively by seeking help.. but I’d guess that sometimes when you’ve been rejected your whole life, breaking through that fear of rejection can be impossible..

In my opinion this is a really simple problem, not saying it’s simple to solve.. but every one of these shootings fit the same pattern – kids that were teased and felt that no matter how intelligent they were they could not connect with the other kids or the “norm”.. Sure, I too put the responsibility to ‘not go on a shotting rampage’ on them, instead of buying guns try and figure out how to communicate with people, but even still… One solution is to identify these kids that are quiet or have been teased(very easy to do) and you TALK and LISTEN to the kids, and please don’t do it with dogmatic old hags in diapers, but young open minded folks looking to release some of the anger these kids have developed from being shut out.. Then you take the kids that were caught teasing, and you educate them on what happens when they try and ‘sacrifice’ a defenseless(no friends) person for their initiation/rank maintenance as a sheeplekid.

[rankandfile]

The “stop the teasing” defense is old, tired, and not effective. Furthermore, this guy’s own family members had said he was a cold, reclusive kid ever since he was young. Many of his roommates at VaTech tried to reach out to him, but this guy just didn’t want any part of it. And what sort of message does that send to kids growing up? It tells them that it was not their fault, that they were backed into a corner and it is alright to kill anyone that is in their path. I think it is safe to say that ALL of us have been picked on at one time or another while growing. That doesn’t make it right to kill people.

I agree that there are some people that can be saved by timely intervention. However, the sooner we realize that not all human beings are good, that some are truly evil, the better off we will all be. We should not leave it up to Big Brother to protect us every waking minute of the day. We should be given the power to defend ourselves when our lives are in danger. This is the fundamental, God-given right that Ted Nugent was speaking about.

[Anonymous]

LoB, thanks for your service, sir.

As we saw, in large swaths of society, the dynamic did change after 9/11, to wit, the folks on United 93 who fought the hijackers.

Universities are different; largerly confused girly men and manly girls running things (did you see the course offerings in the VT English Department; what a charade).

Breeze, LoB did his duty in the toughest of the service branches (I was in the girly service, the Navy). Get a move on, Breeze, I think that you’re running late for your manicure.

Cho knew that he was a wolf amongst unarmed sheep. Cho would last five seconds if he pulled that stunt at the Naval Academy, where folks know that if you’re going to die, you might as well do so gloriously (and gang tackle the gunman), and as the folks on United 93 did.

[speedingpullet]

The guy was sick. Not ‘ooo…my leg’s broken’ sick, but sick nonetheless.

Evil, no, crazy, yes.
Hitler was evil, Idi Amin was evil – this guy was a psychotic loon.

He was involutarily sectioned back in 2005 and lied on his gun application about the fact. Three of his professors voiced doubt about his ability to perform and fit in, and nothing was done about it.

It’s too easy to label something you don’t understand as ‘evil’ – its a copout.

No, I’m not defending him – but to shake your head and brush it off as ‘he must have been evil, ergo we need more guns to protect ourselves’ misses the point.

[4plexowner]

I only saw one vague reference to a citizen militia in this thread so I am throwing my two cents in

As I understand the intent of our founding fathers, the citizens are given the right to bear arms primarily to protect themselves from the government

This means a military type rifle and not a $50 handgun

~

Less than 400 Jews with a handful of weapons held off the German army for 4 months when the Germans were trying to clean out the Warsaw ghetto

~

If California allowed concealed-carry I would be toting a semi-auto .45 everyday – I’m a “shoot evil people first, ask them why they were doing it second” kind of guy

[TheBreeze]

“Universities are different; largerly confused girly men and manly girls running things (did you see the course offerings in the VT English Department; what a charade).

Breeze, LoB did his duty in the toughest of the service branches (I was in the girly service, the Navy). Get a move on, Breeze, I think that you’re running late for your manicure.”

jagoff, I’m beginning to see why you always vote Republican. You have the mentality of a two-year old.

So you weren’t intelligent enough to get into university, eh? I must say I’m not surprised.

Are you so insecure that you feel the need to boast about how brave you would be under gunfire? Generally, I’ve found in life that really brave people don’t spend a lot of time boasting about their bravery – especially on an Internet message board.

The next time you hear gunfire, make sure that you take off running directly towards it. Somehow, I doubt that will happen. More likely, you’ll be one of the first ducking for cover.

[anxvariety]

More guns means safer theory kind works in the VT case, at least on the day of the shooting.. but what about kids/people that are on the edge, that if were comfortable or not afraid of guns would use them to solve smaller disputes? Dunno if it holds up in ‘the worlds a safer place’ argument… your attacker isn’t always firing off 50 rounds letting u know he’s coming or knocking on the door before he has a gun in your face.

Less than 400 Jews with a handful of weapons held off the German army for 4 months when the Germans were trying to clean out the Warsaw ghetto

Source please.. interested in reading about it. I mean, that’ obviously incredibly sensationalized – you don’t have to agree or be a fan of the the German war unit to know they pummeled entire countries and were doing whatever they pleased, if you think they couldn’t have just burned the place down or were really strongly pursuing a pocket of 400 people then……. but there is some valid concept in the snippet – guerilla warfare works(at least if youre not willing to napalm/nuke whatever) and there isn’t shiat anyone can really do about it at this point except trade lifes in an unfavorable ratio to whoever is trying to capture an area.. see Vietnam, Iraq, Lebanon, etc.

Found the source for the uprising you mentioned:
Warsaw Ghetto Uprising

From what I read, there were 300k people in the ghetto and around 60 thousand that were fighting back.. also had the support and equipment(grenades, weapons) from Polish resistance forces.

[4plexowner]

I found a few links via Google

Here’s a chronology from http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=ivKVLcMVIsG&b=476131:

Jan 18, 1943 Second wave of deportations. Beginning of armed resistance
Apr 19, 1943 Final liquidation of Ghetto begins. Beginning of Ghetto uprising
May 16, 1943 Jrgen Stroop declares:
“The Jewish Quarter of Warsaw is no more!” Resistance actually continues sporadically.

This site, http://www.ujc.org/content_display.html?ArticleID=22880 , says

On April 18, 1943, as the German army marched in to liquidate the Warsaw Ghetto, a few hundred Jewish Resistance fighters, armed with pistols, rifles and homemade Molotov cocktails, confronted the Nazi soldiers and held them at bay for almost a month.

~

Looks like I should have said one month instead of four

[Wiley]

The whole gun debate reminds me of the housing debate. People just take the side of what they are hearing in the media and assume its correct (and believe its their own thoughts). Even when given facts they want to dispute it with irrational arguements.

I’ve grown up with a gun on the kitchen counter and others in the house since I can remember (cop father). It never ceases to amaze me how people who see a gun lying around freak out. “oh guns scare me” is the usual statement.

Why don’t they walk out in the driveway and say “oh that car really scares me”. I’m sure they are 1000 times more likely to die in that car then by a gun.

In Freakanomics the writers pointed out that if you send your 10 yr old child to a friends house who own a pool that kid is 100 times more likely to die then sending him over to the friend that has guns in the house.

If you don’t want to own a gun to take responsibility for your self and/or your family, cool. But please don’t give up more of our rights to the government who may or may not be there when you need them.

[Author]

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