Move-up market is stuck

[CA renter]

faterikcartman,

JBurkett laid it all out here. I agree with his post, 100%.

FWIW, I’ve **never** advocated the way they handled the “financial crisis,” and am very opposed to debt, as a general rule. Debt should be used almost exclusively for business expansion where there is adequate demand for goods and services. Debt should not be used for consumption, with the exception of large purchases like houses or cars, and even then, it should be carefully used, and the interest rates should adequately reflect the default and interest rate risks of these loans (I’m opposed to debt derivatives, especially if they are not publicly exchanged, because they tend to hide the price of these risks).

You and I disagree about what drives an economy, though. You seem to subscribe to the supply-side theory, and I’m a demand-sider. IMHO, you can supply all you want, but if there is no demand, the economy will colapse. It’s much easier to ramp up supply than demand, IMHO.

Also, I have yet to see a correlation between low tax rates and job growth. This country’s most prosperous period also saw it’s highest tax rates. The period before the Great Depression had very low tax rates, and the period before this recession/depression had very low tax rates. IMHO, low tax rates, especially when taxes on passive income are lower than taxes on wages, cause dangerous boom/bust cycles, accelerate the growth of the income/wealth gap, and destabilize the economy.

The artificial manipulation of housing and asset prices, as well as interest rates is something I’ve railed against from the beginning. This was trillions of dollars that was very foolishly spent, and brian and I have disagreed about it from day one.

IMHO, concentrated power and wealth is NEVER good; whether it’s concentrated in the government’s hands via communism, or if it’s concentrated in the hands of a few capitalists via capitalism, it will always end in bloody revolution. I believe that the most successful economies are ones where there are enough checks and balances, so that fraud and corruption — the things that destroy all economies and civilizations — are kept to a minimum. I’m a hybrid socialist, because I believe it’s the only way to ensure no one group amasses too much power. The concentration of wealth always ends up badly, and capitalism is not superior to communism in this regard.

[quote=JBurkett19]Some of what you say about gov’t spending is true, but I think you’re forgetting about instances where gov’t spending actually does something for our national economic growth. Examples where gov’t spending increases our capacity to grow are in infrastructre, science, education and research/development. All of these things are major drivers for our positive economic future. They are also ways to employ people in meaningful ways. Where would we be without NASA? Where would we be without roads, airports and bridges to move commerce? We would also be in a world of hurt if goverment didn’t fund scientific research and education as well. All of these things are in areas where private enterprise would not get involved until (or unless) there is profit to be had.

I am in agreement that much of the government spending we had under our President’s stimulus package was misdirected. I think, as you do, that keeping people on the payroll simply for the sake of putting money in people’s hands isn’t productive in the long run. But, building roads, airports and rail to move goods, is extremeely beneficial to not only the worker doing the job, but to the economy as a whole. Also, employing scientists to do research, or providing money to universities for education and research are all part of gov’t spending and have shown to pay huge dividends.

What we nned to do is focus on what we know and what we’ve done right over the last 75 years. We need to continue building our education system, so that people from around the world come here to discover and develop. We also need to take the initiative to continue expanding our infrastructure. We are a devloped nation that needs to continue develop through infrastructure, science, medicine, R & D, etc.

Now, as far as private business goes, we need to get back to manufacturing. Get folks working to make things. Making things, is what ultimately saves our human essence. We gave loads of money to the banksters to prop them up. Now they need to take some of the profits they’ve made by borrowing at .25% and buying treasuries that pay 2-4% and get things going. Too many players are holding on to money, so that they feel more comfortable, when the movement of that money could be employing some folks through investment in real projects.[/quote]

[faterikcartman]

I burned myself out on my last post so I’ll try to be brief.

Again I find myself disagreeing with the assumptions. Education spending is a black hole with returns that don’t match the investment when compared to our performance vis-a-vie the rest of the world. Clearly there is a problem; but it’s not spending.

I read one post as touting those “shovel ready jobs” we were promised. Even the president now admits those weren’t real. So the money was spent, but not on the things you say would help. Moreover, FDR tried the same thing and actually created shovel ready jobs; but current non-idealogical research finds they didn’t help either.

As for demand side vs. supply side, I think you misread my post and missed my overarching point about how economies work. Let people keep their money and spend it themselves because their purchases reflect real demand. Central planning, or government directed spending, IMO, does not reflect real demand. It generates artificial demand. For reasons I tried to explain, this sort does not provide real, or sustainable growth. Again, history points this out.

I do realize, however, that politics and ideology drives things, not economic reality. I am of fan of Thomas Sowell chronicling of this phenomena and encourage everyone to read his column for an alternate view.

The bottom line is I’m not a totalitarian. I believe in individualism and free men and women. Ultimately I favour letting people keep what they earn rather than the collective stealing of the fruits of their labour to be distributed to those who did not earn it. Again, history has shown that when the other view is pursued there reaches a tipping point where people are inclined to either stop working so hard or flee. History is happening right now with people fleeing New York.

One can yammer on about how such and such did or did not work during a period of time and we can argue whether it was the result of tax policy, macroeconomic monetary policy, business cycles, population growth, or fill-in-the-blank. But if we continue further and further down the road we’re on — unsustainable government borrowing and spending — from the USSR to today’s Greece, there are mountains of evidence suggesting impending disaster, but not much suggesting that borrowing and spending our way out of trouble is going to work. That’s why I took the time to underline some fundamentals about how it all works. Many people get hung up on the formulae and talking points and seem to lose sight of the basics.

When I studied economics at the University of California I was both lucky to have only one professor easily identifiable as a lefty, and a natural skepticism. I’m constantly suspicious of today’s education system being more indoctrination than education. Obviously things are worse for those who only get their economic info from the NYT and MSNBC. YMMV.

I’m sure I missed addressing a lot of points but I have to let it go as my wife says I’m going to have a heart attack getting exorcised over internet posts. How about that Riviera Supper Club get together? We can fight over this stuff combined with the magical effects of alcohol!

[faterikcartman]

I burned myself out on my last post so I’ll try to be brief.

Again I find myself disagreeing with the assumptions. Education spending is a black hole with returns that don’t match the investment when compared to our performance vis-a-vie the rest of the world. Clearly there is a problem; but it’s not spending.

I read one post as touting those “shovel ready jobs” we were promised. Even the president now admits those weren’t real. So the money was spent, but not on the things you say would help. Moreover, FDR tried the same thing and actually created shovel ready jobs; but current non-idealogical research finds they didn’t help either.

As for demand side vs. supply side, I think you misread my post and missed my overarching point about how economies work. Let people keep their money and spend it themselves because their purchases reflect real demand. Central planning, or government directed spending, IMO, does not reflect real demand. It generates artificial demand. For reasons I tried to explain, this sort does not provide real, or sustainable growth. Again, history points this out.

I do realize, however, that politics and ideology drives things, not economic reality. I am of fan of Thomas Sowell chronicling of this phenomena and encourage everyone to read his column for an alternate view.

The bottom line is I’m not a totalitarian. I believe in individualism and free men and women. Ultimately I favour letting people keep what they earn rather than the collective stealing of the fruits of their labour to be distributed to those who did not earn it. Again, history has shown that when the other view is pursued there reaches a tipping point where people are inclined to either stop working so hard or flee. History is happening right now with people fleeing New York.

One can yammer on about how such and such did or did not work during a period of time and we can argue whether it was the result of tax policy, macroeconomic monetary policy, business cycles, population growth, or fill-in-the-blank. But if we continue further and further down the road we’re on — unsustainable government borrowing and spending — from the USSR to today’s Greece, there are mountains of evidence suggesting impending disaster, but not much suggesting that borrowing and spending our way out of trouble is going to work. That’s why I took the time to underline some fundamentals about how it all works. Many people get hung up on the formulae and talking points and seem to lose sight of the basics.

When I studied economics at the University of California I was both lucky to have only one professor easily identifiable as a lefty, and a natural skepticism. I’m constantly suspicious of today’s education system being more indoctrination than education. Obviously things are worse for those who only get their economic info from the NYT and MSNBC. YMMV.

I’m sure I missed addressing a lot of points but I have to let it go as my wife says I’m going to have a heart attack getting exorcised over internet posts. How about that Riviera Supper Club get together? We can fight over this stuff combined with the magical effects of alcohol!

[faterikcartman]

I burned myself out on my last post so I’ll try to be brief.

Again I find myself disagreeing with the assumptions. Education spending is a black hole with returns that don’t match the investment when compared to our performance vis-a-vie the rest of the world. Clearly there is a problem; but it’s not spending.

I read one post as touting those “shovel ready jobs” we were promised. Even the president now admits those weren’t real. So the money was spent, but not on the things you say would help. Moreover, FDR tried the same thing and actually created shovel ready jobs; but current non-idealogical research finds they didn’t help either.

As for demand side vs. supply side, I think you misread my post and missed my overarching point about how economies work. Let people keep their money and spend it themselves because their purchases reflect real demand. Central planning, or government directed spending, IMO, does not reflect real demand. It generates artificial demand. For reasons I tried to explain, this sort does not provide real, or sustainable growth. Again, history points this out.

I do realize, however, that politics and ideology drives things, not economic reality. I am of fan of Thomas Sowell chronicling of this phenomena and encourage everyone to read his column for an alternate view.

The bottom line is I’m not a totalitarian. I believe in individualism and free men and women. Ultimately I favour letting people keep what they earn rather than the collective stealing of the fruits of their labour to be distributed to those who did not earn it. Again, history has shown that when the other view is pursued there reaches a tipping point where people are inclined to either stop working so hard or flee. History is happening right now with people fleeing New York.

One can yammer on about how such and such did or did not work during a period of time and we can argue whether it was the result of tax policy, macroeconomic monetary policy, business cycles, population growth, or fill-in-the-blank. But if we continue further and further down the road we’re on — unsustainable government borrowing and spending — from the USSR to today’s Greece, there are mountains of evidence suggesting impending disaster, but not much suggesting that borrowing and spending our way out of trouble is going to work. That’s why I took the time to underline some fundamentals about how it all works. Many people get hung up on the formulae and talking points and seem to lose sight of the basics.

When I studied economics at the University of California I was both lucky to have only one professor easily identifiable as a lefty, and a natural skepticism. I’m constantly suspicious of today’s education system being more indoctrination than education. Obviously things are worse for those who only get their economic info from the NYT and MSNBC. YMMV.

I’m sure I missed addressing a lot of points but I have to let it go as my wife says I’m going to have a heart attack getting exorcised over internet posts. How about that Riviera Supper Club get together? We can fight over this stuff combined with the magical effects of alcohol!

[faterikcartman]

I burned myself out on my last post so I’ll try to be brief.

Again I find myself disagreeing with the assumptions. Education spending is a black hole with returns that don’t match the investment when compared to our performance vis-a-vie the rest of the world. Clearly there is a problem; but it’s not spending.

I read one post as touting those “shovel ready jobs” we were promised. Even the president now admits those weren’t real. So the money was spent, but not on the things you say would help. Moreover, FDR tried the same thing and actually created shovel ready jobs; but current non-idealogical research finds they didn’t help either.

As for demand side vs. supply side, I think you misread my post and missed my overarching point about how economies work. Let people keep their money and spend it themselves because their purchases reflect real demand. Central planning, or government directed spending, IMO, does not reflect real demand. It generates artificial demand. For reasons I tried to explain, this sort does not provide real, or sustainable growth. Again, history points this out.

I do realize, however, that politics and ideology drives things, not economic reality. I am of fan of Thomas Sowell chronicling of this phenomena and encourage everyone to read his column for an alternate view.

The bottom line is I’m not a totalitarian. I believe in individualism and free men and women. Ultimately I favour letting people keep what they earn rather than the collective stealing of the fruits of their labour to be distributed to those who did not earn it. Again, history has shown that when the other view is pursued there reaches a tipping point where people are inclined to either stop working so hard or flee. History is happening right now with people fleeing New York.

One can yammer on about how such and such did or did not work during a period of time and we can argue whether it was the result of tax policy, macroeconomic monetary policy, business cycles, population growth, or fill-in-the-blank. But if we continue further and further down the road we’re on — unsustainable government borrowing and spending — from the USSR to today’s Greece, there are mountains of evidence suggesting impending disaster, but not much suggesting that borrowing and spending our way out of trouble is going to work. That’s why I took the time to underline some fundamentals about how it all works. Many people get hung up on the formulae and talking points and seem to lose sight of the basics.

When I studied economics at the University of California I was both lucky to have only one professor easily identifiable as a lefty, and a natural skepticism. I’m constantly suspicious of today’s education system being more indoctrination than education. Obviously things are worse for those who only get their economic info from the NYT and MSNBC. YMMV.

I’m sure I missed addressing a lot of points but I have to let it go as my wife says I’m going to have a heart attack getting exorcised over internet posts. How about that Riviera Supper Club get together? We can fight over this stuff combined with the magical effects of alcohol!

[faterikcartman]

I burned myself out on my last post so I’ll try to be brief.

Again I find myself disagreeing with the assumptions. Education spending is a black hole with returns that don’t match the investment when compared to our performance vis-a-vie the rest of the world. Clearly there is a problem; but it’s not spending.

I read one post as touting those “shovel ready jobs” we were promised. Even the president now admits those weren’t real. So the money was spent, but not on the things you say would help. Moreover, FDR tried the same thing and actually created shovel ready jobs; but current non-idealogical research finds they didn’t help either.

As for demand side vs. supply side, I think you misread my post and missed my overarching point about how economies work. Let people keep their money and spend it themselves because their purchases reflect real demand. Central planning, or government directed spending, IMO, does not reflect real demand. It generates artificial demand. For reasons I tried to explain, this sort does not provide real, or sustainable growth. Again, history points this out.

I do realize, however, that politics and ideology drives things, not economic reality. I am of fan of Thomas Sowell chronicling of this phenomena and encourage everyone to read his column for an alternate view.

The bottom line is I’m not a totalitarian. I believe in individualism and free men and women. Ultimately I favour letting people keep what they earn rather than the collective stealing of the fruits of their labour to be distributed to those who did not earn it. Again, history has shown that when the other view is pursued there reaches a tipping point where people are inclined to either stop working so hard or flee. History is happening right now with people fleeing New York.

One can yammer on about how such and such did or did not work during a period of time and we can argue whether it was the result of tax policy, macroeconomic monetary policy, business cycles, population growth, or fill-in-the-blank. But if we continue further and further down the road we’re on — unsustainable government borrowing and spending — from the USSR to today’s Greece, there are mountains of evidence suggesting impending disaster, but not much suggesting that borrowing and spending our way out of trouble is going to work. That’s why I took the time to underline some fundamentals about how it all works. Many people get hung up on the formulae and talking points and seem to lose sight of the basics.

When I studied economics at the University of California I was both lucky to have only one professor easily identifiable as a lefty, and a natural skepticism. I’m constantly suspicious of today’s education system being more indoctrination than education. Obviously things are worse for those who only get their economic info from the NYT and MSNBC. YMMV.

I’m sure I missed addressing a lot of points but I have to let it go as my wife says I’m going to have a heart attack getting exorcised over internet posts. How about that Riviera Supper Club get together? We can fight over this stuff combined with the magical effects of alcohol!

[CA renter]

[quote=faterikcartman]How about that Riviera Supper Club get together? We can fight over this stuff combined with the magical effects of alcohol![/quote]

At least we can agree on this part of your post. 😉

Nothing’s more fun than mixing alcohol and politics. Time for a meet-up! 🙂

[CA renter]

[quote=faterikcartman]How about that Riviera Supper Club get together? We can fight over this stuff combined with the magical effects of alcohol![/quote]

At least we can agree on this part of your post. 😉

Nothing’s more fun than mixing alcohol and politics. Time for a meet-up! 🙂

[CA renter]

[quote=faterikcartman]How about that Riviera Supper Club get together? We can fight over this stuff combined with the magical effects of alcohol![/quote]

At least we can agree on this part of your post. 😉

Nothing’s more fun than mixing alcohol and politics. Time for a meet-up! 🙂

[CA renter]

[quote=faterikcartman]How about that Riviera Supper Club get together? We can fight over this stuff combined with the magical effects of alcohol![/quote]

At least we can agree on this part of your post. 😉

Nothing’s more fun than mixing alcohol and politics. Time for a meet-up! 🙂

[CA renter]

[quote=faterikcartman]How about that Riviera Supper Club get together? We can fight over this stuff combined with the magical effects of alcohol![/quote]

At least we can agree on this part of your post. 😉

Nothing’s more fun than mixing alcohol and politics. Time for a meet-up! 🙂

[JBurkett19]

Good Stuff FateRikCartman.

I agree that some education spending does go into a black whole, but don’t forget that you studied at a State School. Where would you be without it?

Also, the point that was made earlier is mainly about scientific research and development. It’s about those things companies and buyers don’t yet see a market or profit. In addition to NASA another example would be the ARPA.

I get you’re point about letting workers keep what they’ve earned, and I am a fan, but a great society takes care of those that can’t help themselves. And that is another reason why central planning is necessary. It’s all in the execution, my friend.

[JBurkett19]

Good Stuff FateRikCartman.

I agree that some education spending does go into a black whole, but don’t forget that you studied at a State School. Where would you be without it?

Also, the point that was made earlier is mainly about scientific research and development. It’s about those things companies and buyers don’t yet see a market or profit. In addition to NASA another example would be the ARPA.

I get you’re point about letting workers keep what they’ve earned, and I am a fan, but a great society takes care of those that can’t help themselves. And that is another reason why central planning is necessary. It’s all in the execution, my friend.

[JBurkett19]

Good Stuff FateRikCartman.

I agree that some education spending does go into a black whole, but don’t forget that you studied at a State School. Where would you be without it?

Also, the point that was made earlier is mainly about scientific research and development. It’s about those things companies and buyers don’t yet see a market or profit. In addition to NASA another example would be the ARPA.

I get you’re point about letting workers keep what they’ve earned, and I am a fan, but a great society takes care of those that can’t help themselves. And that is another reason why central planning is necessary. It’s all in the execution, my friend.

[JBurkett19]

Good Stuff FateRikCartman.

I agree that some education spending does go into a black whole, but don’t forget that you studied at a State School. Where would you be without it?

Also, the point that was made earlier is mainly about scientific research and development. It’s about those things companies and buyers don’t yet see a market or profit. In addition to NASA another example would be the ARPA.

I get you’re point about letting workers keep what they’ve earned, and I am a fan, but a great society takes care of those that can’t help themselves. And that is another reason why central planning is necessary. It’s all in the execution, my friend.

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