Michigan signs Right to Work Bills

[tc]

If more of the country was unionized we wouldn’t need to worry so much about expensive government programs like food stamps, affordable health care acts, etc. Because unions make sure that employers are paying for it. At least private unions do.
America was at its best when the country was more union friendly. But whatever kill the unions and see where it gets us.

Our children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.

[njtosd]

[quote=tc]If more of the country was unionized we wouldn’t need to worry so much about expensive government programs like food stamps, affordable health care acts, etc. Because unions make sure that employers are paying for it. At least private unions do.
America was at its best when the country was more union friendly. But whatever kill the unions and see where it gets us.

Our children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.[/quote]

See my earlier point about Michigan (which was the starting point of this post). If unions are so helpful, why is Michigan in such bad shape? I grew up outside of Detroit – the UAW drove the auto industry out of state. It created the need for the enormous amount of public assistance now going to Michigan’s citizens.

And, I have to ask – who conquered our continent? I must have missed something in the history books –

[CA renter]

[quote=njtosd][quote=tc]If more of the country was unionized we wouldn’t need to worry so much about expensive government programs like food stamps, affordable health care acts, etc. Because unions make sure that employers are paying for it. At least private unions do.
America was at its best when the country was more union friendly. But whatever kill the unions and see where it gets us.

Our children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.[/quote]

See my earlier point about Michigan (which was the starting point of this post). If unions are so helpful, why is Michigan in such bad shape? I grew up outside of Detroit – the UAW drove the auto industry out of state. It created the need for the enormous amount of public assistance now going to Michigan’s citizens.

And, I have to ask – who conquered our continent? I must have missed something in the history books -[/quote]

Michigan is in such bad shape for a number of reasons: the over-reliance on a single, mismanaged industry; racial issues and tensions; economic recessions; and the gradual decline of domestic manufacturing, in general.

While the unions are certainly complicit to an extent, they did not cause the demise of the U.S. auto industry. The management teams did not keep up with changing tastes and responded to the oil crisis with poorly engineered and unappealing cars. The Japanese got a foothold in the U.S. as a result, and have basically gained market share ever since.

The U.S. automakers have also had to deal with crippling healthcare costs that their largest competitors didn’t have to deal with because their governments provide universal healthcare, and their healthcare system is largely non-profit. That takes a HUGE burden off the shoulders of businesses and employees.

If unions are the cause of the auto industry’s or Michigan’s demise, why haven’t unions destroyed industries in Germany, Austria, Sweden, etc.? The unions there are very powerful, yet these countries thrive. How can that be?

As to the question of who will conquer our continent? Some would say the capitalists whose sole desire is to amass ever more wealth and power at the expense of workers and/or the environment.

[Coronita]

Oh, I don’t know…
Maybe the Germans, Austrians, and Sweds are just more responsible and better people than us.

Clearly, they seem to be much better drivers than we do.

And clearly, despite having no drinking age, they seem to have a much better handle on responsiblee drinking and driving than we do.

Clearly, they seem to have a much better grasp at managing money the we do.

So I don’t know…Maybe Germans, Austrians, Sweds have better work ethics that we do…

[Allan from Fallbrook]

CAR: In fairness, you should also mention that the auto industries in those countries are protected by tariff, and foreign imports are extremely limited, thus providing the respective domestic markets with a captive audience, so to speak.

Those same limits aren’t found here in the US.

And, yes, upper management at the Big Three was dreadful, no doubt about it. But pretending that unions were not a motive force as well is choosing to ignore the obvious.

The period between 1945 and 1972 was a historical anomaly. We will likely never see a period like that again, where the US is the single dominant manufacturing power in a world wrecked by a world war.

[ctr70]

Can you imagine if Silicon Valley went Union like Michigan? Can you imagine a software engineer at Google saying to Larry Page, “sorry dude, I can’t write that piece of code that’s not in my job description”. “Sorry Larry, it’s 5pm, I’m done today, Union rules dude”.

One of the reason high tech as a 4% unemployment rate and Silicon Valley has the highest incomes in the U.S. and the best companies in the U.S. (Google, Apple, Cisco, etc…) is b/c they don’t have Unions. That is one of he reasons Silicon Valley is still a sector of the U.S. Economy that leads the world in innovation.

Bloated unions have been one of the reasons Detroit has gone down the drain and got it’s butt kicked by Japan and Germany in the auto business. And GM had to be bailed out of BK by Obama. Can you imagine what Michigan and U.S. auto industry might be like if it was run like Silicon Valley with no unions? Might it be a little more competitive? Might they make better cars? Might Michigan’s unemployment rate be a lot better and everyone better off as a whole? Hmmmm.

[CA renter]

The tech industry has a relatively low unemployment rate because that’s the industry of the day. Just like the auto manufacturers of the 1940s and 50s, it will rise and fall…like many other industries before it. It has nothing to do with unions or the lack of them.

Tech, as it applies to “writing apps” and coming up with new ways to use a cell phone, will slowly fade, if it hasn’t already started. Other competitors will take over, some of them from other countries, and while Silicon Valley will probably always be a thriving place for tech simply because of the people who are drawn there — not because of a lack of unions — it will also experience periods of boom and bust. The only question is when, not if, tech as the “hottest sector” will begin to fade. Sometime down the line, another sector will take its place and the people who work in that sector will think that they are invincible and that the good times will never end, just like every hot industry (empire, nation, etc.) that came before it.

————–

I’d also like to draw your attention to the fact that GM was the ONLY union company to get bailed out by the govt during the financial crisis; many other companies and industries were bailed out, and are still being bailed out as we speak, to the tune of trillions of dollars in govt-backed loans/guarantees, lost savings for those who rely on interest income, taxpayer-funded asset purchases, under-market sales to well-connected people in the financial sector, etc. ALL of these other industries have NO UNIONS. How do you reconcile that with your assertion that unions were the cause of all of our economic problems?

[Coronita]

[quote=CA renter]The tech industry has a relatively low unemployment rate because that’s the industry of the day. Just like the auto manufacturers of the 1940s and 50s, it will rise and fall…like many other industries before it. It has nothing to do with unions or the lack of them.

Tech, as it applies to “writing apps” and coming up with new ways to use a cell phone, will slowly fade, if it hasn’t already started. Other competitors will take over, some of them from other countries, and while Silicon Valley will probably always be a thriving place for tech simply because of the people who are drawn there — not because of a lack of unions — it will also experience periods of boom and bust. The only question is when, not if, tech as the “hottest sector” will begin to fade. Sometime down the line, another sector will take its place and the people who work in that sector will think that they are invincible and that the good times will never end, just like every hot industry (empire, nation, etc.) that came before it.

————–

I’d also like to draw your attention to the fact that GM was the ONLY union company to get bailed out by the govt during the financial crisis; many other companies and industries were bailed out, and are still being bailed out as we speak, to the tune of trillions of dollars in govt-backed loans/guarantees, lost savings for those who rely on interest income, taxpayer-funded asset purchases, under-market sales to well-connected people in the financial sector, etc. ALL of these other industries have NO UNIONS. How do you reconcile that with your assertion that unions were the cause of all of our economic problems?[/quote]

Lol. that was comical…I guess since “tech” (as used as one big umbrella) is going away,we’ll just all stop innovating and live in the dark ages.

Because after all, we’ll reach a point when we don’t need to people to be creative and innovate and for god’s sake use their brains…

Um, CAR, don’t bother commenting on subjects you absolutely know nothing about…

But thanks for the good laugh.

[CA renter]

Lacking knowledge about a topic (like unions and the public sector) has never stopped you from commenting, flu.

————-

Just keep thinking that your industry is never going to fade. We’ll see how well that works out.

[Coronita]

[quote=CA renter]Lacking knowledge about a topic (like unions and the public sector) has never stopped you from commenting, flu.

————-

Just keep thinking that your industry is never going to fade. We’ll see how well that works out.[/quote]

CAR, it’s worked out pretty well for me actually. But thanks for asking…

The difference is, I experience union sluggishness in the past and swore never to do it again. I don’t think you can say the same thing about your experience working in a tech company. But please do tell your kids not to enter this field. They don’t need to compete, because after all, it’s going to be outsourced anyway…Fine by me. Not my loss.

You might not be interested in tech and never need to buy tech…But you’re probably the <10% of the consumer that no one is trying to sell to. Which is fine by me too.

Whatever floats your boat.

The way I look at it a lot of us are actually much more versatile at working with the unknown. We don't have guarantees. We are use to uncertainty. So if things change we adapt... I think that's the problem with folks that get complacent with a false sense of security from entitlement programs. When the music stops and the rug gets pulled (which will happen much more likely than "tech" going away), then suddenly no one knows what to do. People that haven't stayed current and stayed competitive...

[CA renter]

You had one experience with a union in a single company, based on your earlier postings about the topic. I worked for a group of (related) tech companies for over six years, one of which outperformed (for one year) one of the largest blue-chip tech companies at the time. All of those companies, and many that were “hot” in those days (about 20+ years ago) are gone.

[Coronita]

[quote=CA renter]You had one experience with a union in a single company, based on your earlier postings about the topic. I worked for a group of tech companies for over six years, one of which outperformed (for one year) one of the largest blue-chip tech companies at the time.[/quote]

Actually, I’ve worked at about 8-10 different companies and interned at a few defense companies (with unionized engineers), and one non profit that was contracted with the USAF…And I totally understand what it means when a “non-profit” company that operates on a “$0 budget” with a unionized engineering team does to productivity….especially when suddenly congress shrinks the budget, and suddenly the company needs to actually compete with other for-profit companies. Not a pretty picture…One of the reasons why I would never be caught dead working in a defense company (along with a long long list of other reasons..But that’s a separate issue)..

Hey, I didn’t see you comment on the post about Long Island Power? Care to?

You know CAR, I don’t have any issues with “reasonable” worker’s right…But you would have to be blind into seeing that some unions (not necesarily members of them) are basically extortionists now..

[CA renter]

So, you’re saying that a company has problems when its primary customer contracts spending. And how, exactly, does that relate to unions destroying the company?

[CA renter]

Sorry, I must have missed the post about Long Island Power. Where is it?

[Coronita]

[quote=CA renter]So, you’re saying that a company has problems when its primary customer contracts spending. And how, exactly, does that relate to unions destroying the company?[/quote]

Simple. Cost. Lack of flexiblity. Ridiculous work schedules and just about everything that would butcher a project to death and end up costing the customer (in this case it was the government and essentially in the end..taxpayers) a hell of a lot more money.

[Author]

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