How did Toll Brothers survive the housing slump?

[spdrun]

Considering I spent the past week camping, hiking, and partying at my friends’ house upstate, then had a long drive back, staying in on Sat. night was about right 🙂

[sdrealtor]

Navydoc
He’s just arguing for the sake of arguing. Thats his personality. He has no evidence.

Toll Bros builds a great product. They pretty much defined the McMansion when it all started. One of the things that differentiates them is they do the same thing the same way everywhere they go which is to build high quality McMansions. In contrast most other national builders redefine who they are in each market. You have companies like KHov which is a luxury homebuilder in SoCal and base quality builder (kinda like KB Home) back East. If you bought a high end Khov house in SD and told someone from NJ they’d look at you sideways.

[Coronita]

[quote=Navydoc]So where’s the evidence you have that shows their execution is faulty? From what I’ve seen so far of the finished work it looks quite good to me. Compared to the Maryland home, which had numerous gaps around switchplates and outlets, the Toll attention to detail appears far superior. I’m quite happy with the purchase, and can’t wait to move in.

I have a feeling we’re going to wait quite a long time for this “evidence”, and will endure multiple straw men in the meantime.[/quote]

Welcome back. On yeah welcome to the new piggington. Data optional and we’re all experts. No experience required.

[desmond]

[quote=spdrun]Considering I spent the past week camping, hiking, and partying at my friends’ house upstate, then had a long drive back, staying in on Sat. night was about right :)[/quote]

Did you camp and party in your backyard? You posted on July 23,24,25, 26.

[CDMA ENG]

[quote=spdrun]Construction quality also has to do with execution, not just initial design, you know. That’s where all of the mass-produced-box builders fall down. If code only requires a 4″ slab, then the problem is with the code![/quote]

Poorly “executed” answer.

CE

[spdrun]

Don’t have a back yard since I live in an apartment 😉
Ain’t mobile devices grand?

[SK in CV]

[quote=CDMA ENG][quote=spdrun]Construction quality also has to do with execution, not just initial design, you know. That’s where all of the mass-produced-box builders fall down. If code only requires a 4″ slab, then the problem is with the code![/quote]

Poorly “executed” answer.

CE[/quote]

With the exception of the last sentence, it is a pretty accurate claim. Most, but far from all construction problems are execution rather than faulty design. Builders contract with subs who agree to build to spec, and then cut corners, sometimes occasionally, sometimes consistently. And sometimes, they just do it wrong. Every builder has these same problems.

But I’m not sure this discussion is really about design or workmanship. Generally, the more expensive a house is (as compared with the local market), the higher the quality of the products used to build the house. Builders can use inexpensive products and assemblies and not end up with defects. But cheap finishes make for cheap feeling houses, irrespective of the quality of the installation work.

Toll doesn’t tend to build those houses. Hovnanian does in so cal. But generalizations can be dangerous. It can change from development to development.

(And in some situations, a 4″ slab is perfectly acceptable. And one 4″ slab is not exactly the same as every other 4″ slab, concrete mix and assembly varies. Some conditions call for a thicker slab, irrespective of code.)

[spdrun]

I’m not convinced that price dictates what’s *inside* the walls of a new house, unless it’s custom built. Builders are in it for the profit, and after the warranty and statute of limitations on suits expire, as long as it’s to code, it’s Not Their Problem.

[SK in CV]

[quote=spdrun]I’m not convinced that price dictates what’s *inside* the walls of a new house, unless it’s custom built. Builders are in it for the profit, and after the warranty and statute of limitations on suits expire, as long as it’s to code, it’s Not Their Problem.[/quote]

No, it doesn’t. Because inside the walls, they’re pretty much all the same. What makes a house feel like higher quality is the finishes. The cabinetry, applicances, flooring, doors and windows, etc. These finishes can add $100K or more to the cost of a house. (The kitchen appliances alone in my townhouse cost the builder $10-$15K more than if they had gone cheap. And that’s one of the reasons I bought THIS house, instead of teh cheap one down the street.)

All buildiers are in it for the money. If builders can go cheap and sell the houses they build, they will. If the market requires they spend more in order to sell the houses, they’ll do that too. Most of them know what they’re doing, and build the right houses for the right markets.

[ocrenter]

[quote=Navydoc]So where’s the evidence you have that shows their execution is faulty? From what I’ve seen so far of the finished work it looks quite good to me. Compared to the Maryland home, which had numerous gaps around switchplates and outlets, the Toll attention to detail appears far superior. I’m quite happy with the purchase, and can’t wait to move in.

I have a feeling we’re going to wait quite a long time for this “evidence”, and will endure multiple straw men in the meantime.[/quote]

The guy has no evidence. I doubt he has ever step into a Toll built home. Like he said, to him all builders are the same.

The more notorious builders by reputation appear to be Cornerstone, KHOV, and KB. As we have seen, lots of complaints about Cornerstones Montoro in Stonebridge. But apparently there’s been issues with the higher end product, Tiburon, as well.

As it turns out, Cornerstone is still trying to complete the roughly 20 homesites of Montoro even after 3 and a half years and lower prices. Meanwhile Toll has already sold over 20 homes within the last 6 months despite a higher price point.

All builders are the same? Absolutely pathetic.

[outtamojo]

While we are on builders, where does Davidson rank?

[ocrenter]

[quote=outtamojo]While we are on builders, where does Davidson rank?[/quote]

Davidson homes are excellent, lots of attention to details. Head to head vs Toll Bro? Not sure.

[flyer]

Have several rentals in CV built by Baldwin and Pardee, and others in other locations by various builders around town, and we’ve had to have quite a bit of work done on all of them. (Should clarify these are older homes that we purchased 20+ years ago. I’m sure the newer homes in CV are much better constructed, and that this has just been our personal experience.)

All are in great locations, but the workmanship leaves much to be desired. Our primary is custom, so that’s really a different story.

Have always heard good things about Toll and Davidson. Have been hearing good things from friends about McCullough lately, but don’t know much about them.

[Allan from Fallbrook]

[quote=flyer]Have several rentals in CV built by Baldwin and Pardee, and others in other locations by various builders around town, and we’ve had to have quite a bit of work done on all of them. (Should clarify these are older homes that we purchased 20+ years ago. I’m sure the newer homes in CV are much better constructed, and that this has just been our personal experience.)

All are in great locations, but the workmanship leaves much to be desired. Our primary is custom, so that’s really a different story.

Have always heard good things about Toll and Davidson. Have been hearing good things from friends about McCullough lately, but don’t know much about them.[/quote]

Back in another life, I worked in the surety and insurance biz for Willis and we did a lot of business in the construction industry. While our primary focus was surety bonds for public works projects, we also interacted quite a bit with residential contractors as well, mainly in subdivision bonds, fidelity bonds and liability insurance.

The one thing we always paid particular attention to was the number of times the contractor had been sued for latent defect and construction defect and the number of CSLB complaints for not only poor workmanship, but how long it took them to correct these problems.

This is going back a bit, but I recall that Toll Bros had an enviable reputation for quality and customer service, unlike some other big name residential GCs (who shall remain nameless.)

[ocrenter]

Another interesting observation I’ve made before. At least when it comes to SD, Toll’s timing of the market was spot on, no purchase of any lots during the peak, came in and bought up a bunch of lots in premium neighborhoods with steep discount after the bust. Nicely played!

Did they just get lucky in SD? Or are they consistent with this nationwide?

[Author]

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