H1-B observations

[lifeisgood]

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-visas-tech-workers-h1b-20150217-story.html

Hello everyone! I haven’t posted in awhile. I need some educated opinions so that I can open my mind up about the feeling I have towards the broken H1-B visa program. I currently believe that the system is being abused. San Diego is a breeding ground for this program due to the tech jobs that are available. I live in Rancho Bernardo and so do many H1-B visa holders. I find it hard to believe that companies like Qualcomm and others can’t find qualified Americans to fill their positions of need. In SD alone there are two Engineering schools pumping out graduates every year. I also believe that these companies know they can hire immigrants, that come from countries with no worker protections such as overtime pay and scheduled break time, and overwork them and pay them less than an American worker would agree to. I think it’s a shame. Most of theses workers could care less about the United States and are here solely for personal gain. If you disagree with me, please let me know. I’m trying to get different points of view so that I can have a well rounded opinion. With the upcoming Presidential election, this will be a topic that will sway my vote. Thanks for your responses in advance.

[Coronita]

In my experience. there are two types of companies that use H1-Bs. There are companies that really do use H1-Bs as a means to hire people for positions they can’t find, and there are companies that exploit it bring people overseas over and pay them substandard wages.

I personally have not seen many companies exploiting the H1-B programs as a means of bring cheap labor and bring people with questionable talent, but that’s because I typically work at big companies that don’t use 3rd party consulting companies/contractors. Where I have been learning from others is this sort of abuse/exploitation occurs is in the consulting/contracting business, particularly for skills/technology that have already reached saturation. So, for example, I can see this happening for probably contracting positions in enterprise software for things like J2EE or database development, but have not particularly seen this for the wireless connectivity business I am in.

In the past, when we were on a hiring spree, we went to UCSD, San Diego State, and SDSU to recruit new hires, and we interviewed people equally both with H1-B and without. For the most part, we did try to hire people that didn’t have an H1-B because it was a pain in the ass to deal with all the logistics with sponsoring someone. BUT, what ended up happening was most of the masters students in CS/EE are H1-B. Out of the ones that weren’t H1-B, the really good ones weren’t interested in working for us because they had offers from Facebook, Google, Apple, etc, despite our compensation being competitive. And the ones that were interested really lacked basic fundamentals, and were the same oens that no one else wanted to hire too.

So we did end up picking up 3 people. 1 person had a bachelor’s degree and was a US citizen that was really good. And 2 people that were masters students that previously worked for 1 year at a wireless company before doing the masters, both needed H1-B sponsorship.

I think we paid the bachelor guy $80k/year base, while the two masters we paid at the time $105-110k/year. That didn’t include bonus and didn’t include stock grants, which probably would have brought the bachelor guy to about $110k/year, and the masters people about $130k/year…If they stayed….

The bachelor guy left after working for 8 months, and went to Apple. The masters guy with an H1-B left about 10 months and joined qualcomm, I’m guess with a better offer, because back then they were throwing a lot of money to anyone with connectivity experience. The remaining person decided she wanted to stay and since then has been promoted. She didn’t go to qualcomm, even after she got her greencard, because her husband I believe works there, and I think they wanted to spread the risk of not working at the same company (in hindsight, probably a good move).

We also had a bunch of lateral hires that were already greencard holders and H1-Bs that stayed maybe for 1-2 years, before they too jumped ship and went to Qualcomm, Apple, Google. And last year we lost a lot of people to Intel that I heard were paying people 40%+ more because they wanted to ramp up their mobile business (and no, we weren’t underpaying people).
————————————

Senior Management got tired and fed up with all of this churn in San Diego, since we we having a tough time keeping employees, during a time when parts of our business was being challenged. So to minimize disruption, management started to experiment by leveraging some resources in our Bangalore office. Some people were good, some people weren’t good. But then with the cost factor being significant lower, and with our difficultly in filling positions and keeping people here, gradually hiring picked up abroad, and the team overseas ended up growing bigger than our team locally. And that’s when the bean counters figured out that rather than deal with hiring more here (H1-B or permanent resident employees), that it was just easier to grow the team in bangalore, for less, and simply by the raw number of people, felt that projects could be run better that way. Partly true, partly false, but that’s the perception of what happened.

And so, for the longest time, every additional perosn that quit here locally, we lost that headcount, and 6-7 headcounts were re-allocated to the bangalore office. No one really liked this. None of the line managers did, neither did any of the directors, and not some of the VP’s. But what can you do? We didn’t have a good track record of keeping people when we did hire here..

In the sort of ironic twist, these same people that bailed to Qualcomm are probably going to need a job now. And the sad part is, they won’t find one at our firm anymore. Because we weren’t able to fill those positions at the time locallly, now those positions are elsewhere and so are the projects. That’s the sad part because, that business is actually doing ok.

So in short, H1-B at least from what I have seen, aren’t the problem….The bigger issue is when a big company sets up a offshore office, and your local team can’t get it’s act together and differentiate what you do that is better or more creative than an offshore location.

In the short time that I did work at Qualcomm back in the mid 90ies, there were a lot of H1-Bs (and I wasn’t one of them), but we were all paid the same. Again, I think (at least back then), big companies that do direct hires didn’t abuse the H1-B system nearly as much as the contractor/consulting companies. A big company, if they really wanted to save on cost, won’t even bother to hire locally in the U.S., but move work overseas… Looks like Qualcomm is going to try this experiment in the next year or so, since they too are hitting saturation.

What does this mean for U.S. employees? Simple. You better work on something in a growth area that no one else is trying. Because the moment the market hits saturation, you can bet your cushy position isn’t going to last.

[FlyerInHi]

A few points:

Labors laws in USA protect all workers equally. Employers cannot work H1-Bs and not pay them overtime, vacation, sick, etc… Employers also incur legal costs to bring in foreign workers. The process is not exactly cheap.

As you said, H1-Bs live in Rancho Bernardo, so they are paid fairly well to afford to live there. Rancho Bernardo is an upscale neighborhood of San Diego. My own anecdotal observation is that H1-Bs live in better that “average” housing and neighborhoods.

We live in a world economy. Employers need specific skills and should be able to bring workers who meet their requirements.

An open society grows our economy and enrich us all, economically and culturally. I personally support H1-Bs and immigration reform. In fact, I think that foreign graduates of accredited American universities should be offered green cards and encouraged to stay.

[Coronita]

[quote=FlyerInHi]A few points:

Labors laws in USA protect all workers equally. Employers cannot work H1-Bs and not pay them overtime, vacation, sick, etc… Employers also incur legal costs to bring in foreign workers. The process is not exactly cheap.

H1-Bs live in Rancho Bernardo, so they are paid fairly well to afford to live there. Rancho Bernardo is an upscale neighborhood of San Diego. My own anecdotal observation is that H1-Bs live in better that “average” housing and neighborhoods.

We live in a world economy. Employers need specific skills and should be able to bring workers who meet their requirements.

An open society grows our economy and enrich us all, economically and culturally. I personally support H1-Bs and immigration reform. In fact, I think that foreign graduates of accredited American universities should be offered green cards and encouraged to stay.[/quote]

There are cases in which contracting companies abuse the H1-B system. I think it was Infosys that did this for a long time, and they got caught and severely fine. What they would do is routinely fly people from bangalore over here, using a guest visa, and rotate the people coming here.

Infosys to Pay Record Fine for U.S. Visa Fraud

So, it definitely does happen. Does it happen all the time? no….

[Coronita]

[quote]Most of theses workers could care less about the United States and are here solely for personal gain. If you disagree with me, please let me know. I’m trying to get different points of view so that I can have a well rounded opinion. With the upcoming Presidential election, this will be a topic that will sway my vote. Thanks for your responses in advance.[/quote]

That would be incorrect. Most of the H1-B’s here put the time and effort into attending the best schools in their country so they can come here and study and emigrate here. Many of the H1-B’s come from the top rank schools overseas including IIT. Most of them get their greencards and plan on staying here, and eventually get US citizenship. Look at the engineering schools, particularly the masters program….More people abroad study engineering than people from this country.

In fact, as I mentioned on another thread, many of them are just as pissed off that U.S. companies are making bonehead decisions to move work abroad, when they themselves admit the “talent” abroad isn’t nearly as good as over here.

[spdrun]

US law doesn’t guarantee overtime above a certain amount of pay, nor does it guarantee vacation days.

[FlyerInHi]

The abusers did get caught. So the process worked.

H1-B is hardly slave labor, not by a long shot.

You’re right, flu. Most H1-Bs are highly qualified and we should be lucky to have them here, improving our technological advantages.

One of the advantages that America has is that we attract the best and the brightest (Germany reformed since the 1990s and is doing the same thing, even providing free university education for foreign students).

This topic reminds of the reverse White-flight in Cupertino where White parents are moving out because the schools are too competitive for their kids. flu, did you read that article from years ago?

Hey, the world is a competitive place and the bar is always being raised.

BTW, H1-B tech workers are not all from Asia/India, but also from Europe/Eastern Europe where people value education. I have a neighbor from Slovakia.

[lifeisgood]

I never said that H1-B’s didn’t want to come here. I said they could care less about America other than the U.S. being a conduit to a better life. If they had the same opportunities in their own country, they wouldn’t move here. I just read an article that Disney hired 200 H1-B’s and had their employees that are being replaced, train them. To say that big companies aren’t abusing the system is naïve. “Google” H1-B abuse and you will find MANY articles of BIG companies abusing the system. My ONLY problem with the H1-B system is that I truly believe that immigrants are being hired over Americans who have the same level of skill but won’t take less pay for the position. It’s common sense to hire immigrants who in the long run will deliver the same product at less long term cost to the company. I do believe that a lot of companies out there don’t abuse it, but there are a crap ton that do.
I’m also willing to admit that people who come from sub par countries most likely work harder than our entitled society. So some of this problem is on the U.S.

[FlyerInHi]

[quote=spdrun]US law doesn’t guarantee overtime above a certain amount of pay, nor does it guarantee vacation days.[/quote]

Yes, but US labors laws protect all workers equally regardless of citizenship.

It only makes sense that foreign workers would work harder for the same pay. They need to ingratiate themselves with their employers. But that’s relative.

That was that case through history with the waves of immigrants we welcomed — Irish, Polish, Italians, Chinese, Mexican …

[Coronita]

[quote=FlyerInHi]The abusers did get caught. So the process worked.

H1-B is hardly slave labor, not by a long shot.

You’re right, flu. Most H1-Bs are highly qualified and we should be lucky to have them here, improving our technological advantages.

One of the advantages that America has is that we attract the best and the brightest (Germany reformed since the 1990s and is doing the same thing, even providing free university education for foreign students).

This topic reminds of the reverse White-flight in Cupertino where White parents are moving out because the schools are too competitive for their kids. flu, did you read that article from years ago?

Hey, the world is a competitive place and the bar is always being raised.

BTW, H1-B tech workers are not all from Asia/India, but also from Europe/Eastern Europe where people value education. I have a neighbor from Slovakia.[/quote]

the abuses by a big firm will get caught. But unfortunately, the abuses by smaller firms probably go unnoticed, and when it comes to smaller firms, it’s the quantity of abuses

[lifeisgood]

[quote=FlyerInHi]The abusers did get caught. So the process worked.

H1-B is hardly slave labor, not by a long shot.

You’re right, flu. Most H1-Bs are highly qualified and we should be lucky to have them here, improving our technological advantages.

One of the advantages that America has is that we attract the best and the brightest (Germany reformed since the 1990s and is doing the same thing, even providing free university education for foreign students).

This topic reminds of the reverse White-flight in Cupertino where White parents are moving out because the schools are too competitive for their kids. flu, did you read that article from years ago?

Hey, the world is a competitive place and the bar is always being raised.

BTW, H1-B tech workers are not all from Asia/India, but also from Europe/Eastern Europe where people value education. I have a neighbor from Slovakia.[/quote]

I agree with you on many points. I believe that we can always use skilled workers to advance our technology. I also believe that the world is a competitive place. I also agree that H1-B’s get compensated well.

However, we would be naïve to believe that companies that go through the trouble of paying to have these workers come in, do not gain some advantage for doing so. So I ask, what is the advantage? I do not believe that the U.S. can not produce or does not have the best and brightest people in the world. We live in a state that breeds competition. You can’t even get into a 4 year university here unless you have a flawless academic record and then even that doesn’t work. The problem is not competition. The problem for me is that we don’t need anymore competition. California is already bursting at the seems to keep up with it’s current population. Our American citizens have some of the best academic records in the world. These companies should invest in the citizens we have now. Trust me, it is more cost effective to hire outside the country or just simply would not be a good investment. Maybe I’m the stupid one to believe that this program needs reform.

By the way, thanks for the responses. I love learning and hearing different perspective.

[Coronita]

[quote=lifeisgood]I never said that H1-B’s didn’t want to come here. I said they could care less about America other than the U.S. being a conduit to a better life. If they had the same opportunities in their own country, they wouldn’t move here. I just read an article that Disney hired 200 H1-B’s and had their employees that are being replaced, train them. To say that big companies aren’t abusing the system is naïve. “Google” H1-B abuse and you will find MANY articles of BIG companies abusing the system. My ONLY problem with the H1-B system is that I truly believe that immigrants are being hired over Americans who have the same level of skill but won’t take less pay for the position. It’s common sense to hire immigrants who in the long run will deliver the same product at less long term cost to the company. I do believe that a lot of companies out there don’t abuse it, but there are a crap ton that do.
I’m also willing to admit that people who come from sub par countries most likely work harder than our entitled society. So some of this problem is on the U.S.[/quote]

Again, this is where you are wrong. H1-B’s come here because they want to stay here in as much your parents came here and wanted to stay here and immigrant here. (unless your parents are american indian or your parents were african american slaves that were forced to come here)….

Just like your parents, H1-Bs pay their federal, state taxes, and they also pay social security taxes, despite not being able to collect on them in case they get sent back. They pay SDI to CA and they pay for just about every other tax, just like everyone else. I hardly see how a $100k+ H1-B paying their W2 taxes (which is the most tax inefficient way to earn money in the U.S.) isn’t contributing their fair share of taxes when I’m sure you have plenty of small businesses in the mall that shut off their cashier registers mid-day to not pay their fair share of taxes….

If you are going to “blame” someone, blame the company, blame american consumers that no longer can afford to buy more smartphones and tablets….Because Qualcomm derives more than 51% of it’s business in China where it has to compete with other chinese players, more so on cost. True, Qualcomm could just leave the chinese market. But then what? Instead of laying off 15% of QCT, shut down QCT completely and lay everyone off except for those that work for QTL (royalty/licensing aka: lawyer group)?

[lifeisgood]

[quote=flu][quote=lifeisgood]I never said that H1-B’s didn’t want to come here. I said they could care less about America other than the U.S. being a conduit to a better life. If they had the same opportunities in their own country, they wouldn’t move here. I just read an article that Disney hired 200 H1-B’s and had their employees that are being replaced, train them. To say that big companies aren’t abusing the system is naïve. “Google” H1-B abuse and you will find MANY articles of BIG companies abusing the system. My ONLY problem with the H1-B system is that I truly believe that immigrants are being hired over Americans who have the same level of skill but won’t take less pay for the position. It’s common sense to hire immigrants who in the long run will deliver the same product at less long term cost to the company. I do believe that a lot of companies out there don’t abuse it, but there are a crap ton that do.
I’m also willing to admit that people who come from sub par countries most likely work harder than our entitled society. So some of this problem is on the U.S.[/quote]

Again, this is where you are wrong. H1-B’s come here because they want to stay here in as much your parents came here and wanted to stay here and immigrant here. (unless your parents are american indian or your parents were african american slaves that were forced to come here)….

Just like your parents, H1-Bs pay their federal, state taxes, and they also pay social security taxes, despite not being able to collect on them in case they get sent back. They pay SDI to CA and they pay for just about every other tax, just like everyone else. I hardly see how a $100k+ H1-B paying their W2 taxes (which is the most tax inefficient way to earn money in the U.S.) isn’t contributing their fair share of taxes when I’m sure you have plenty of small businesses in the mall that shut off their cashier registers mid-day to not pay their fair share of taxes….

If you are going to “blame” someone, blame the company, blame american consumers that no longer can afford to buy more smartphones and tablets….Because Qualcomm derives more than 51% of it’s business in China where it has to compete with other chinese players, more so on cost. True, Qualcomm could just leave the chinese market. But then what? Instead of laying off 15% of QCT, shut down QCT completely and lay everyone off except for those that work for QTL (royalty/licensing aka: lawyer group)?[/quote]

Please read the first two sentences again and again until you understand it. I don’t disagree with you. I don’t feel entitled just because my ancestors have been here for hundreds of years. We were all immigrants at one point.

[lifeisgood]

By the way, I didn’t intend to start a debate about if legal workers pay their taxes. I’m not an idiot. Of course I know that legal workers pay taxes.

[Coronita]

[quote=lifeisgood]

Please read the first two sentences again and again until you understand it. I don’t disagree with you. I don’t feel entitled just because my ancestors have been here for hundreds of years. We were all immigrants at one point.

I said they could care less about America other than the U.S. being a conduit to a better life. If they had the same opportunities in their own country, they wouldn’t move here.

[/quote]

I hate to break the news to you, but I think H1-B workers here facing getting laidoff seem to care more about america and american jobs than U.S. citizen CEOs, managers, management, hedge funds, that seem more interested in turning a buck at the cost of screwing over everyone else.

Also, if what you say is true about H1-B immigrants carrying more about the job than about staying in America, then how come we haven’t seen a mass exodus of H1-B’s back to their home countries, considering how the opportunities in China and India, in many cases, are better than here in the U.S.? Their pay/salary might be lower, but not *that* much lower (for good people, it’s definitely not 1:8 as people say it is), and their cost of living is definitely significantly lower than it is here. And yet, you don’t see a mass exodus, do you? If you did, this probably would have already been self correcting because you wouldn’t have an H1-B glut problem as you claim we have.

And I didn’t say there is no abuse at bigger companies. But again, it’s not the primary way big companies use to save on labor costs. The H1-B “threat”, is nothing compared to moving the entire team abroad and hiring locally there…

People are focusing on the wrong “problem”…H1-B or non H1-B, isn’t the issue. It’s the issue that that entire group is being moved abroad because it’s reached a point of “maturity” (run the business) so it no longer needs the “best” talent to maintain it. (at least that’s why the the management team think).

If this is really of concern, then work at companies where it’s much harder to offshore the work…IE the defense industry, and things related to national security that requires a security clearance. I would if I wasn’t so concerned about being a scapegoat in the future if chinese/american political relations going sour in the future, despite not being from mainland china.

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