Civil War in Iraq

[PerryChase]

bgates, I’ve been busy at work and installing some built in shelves at home. It’s a lot of work if you want to do the shelving right.

Looks like the news out of Iraq an Afghanistan aren’t all that good this week. I wonder when the Malaki government will fall.

[carlislematthew]

OK, so if it’s not a “Civil War”, is it a “Civil War on Terror”?

Or “Islamo Fascisto Civil War of Terraxis of Evil”?

If we can figure out a way to call it a civil war (to please those who want to get out) and to somehow invoke past victories in World War II, then we’ll all be happy.

[bgates]

Actually, I’ll be happy with victory. So, tell you what, let’s call it “Incompetent War of Evil Jesus-Lovers who Aren’t Smart Enough to Obey the French,” and keep fighting to win, and we’ll all be happy.

I really don’t understand the people who don’t want to win.

[an]

Of course American won the American Civil War. If we didn’t win, who would. In regards to Vietnam, we lost, pure and simple. You can’t declare victory when the war is still going on. You can’t beat an enemy in their own country and they’re willing to fight till the last man die. If US stayed another 10-20 years, maybe the result might be different, but we didn’t.

[PerryChase]

Wanting to win is one thing. Everyone wants to win.

Yes, America’s military is the best and we can win on the battlefield. But we cannot keep the peace because of there are just too many insurgents. We’d be taking over one city to loose it again later. General Shinseki was right, you need 500,000 troops (and a return of the draft) in Iraq to win.

I don’t believe that the sacrifices that we’d have to make as a nation are worth a win in Iraq. Invading Iraq was an ill-conceived naive neo-con idea. The French knew it and they tried to warn America. A parallel to Iraq is Algeria that caused the fall of 6 French governments. Ségolène Royal said (I paraphrase) that good friends warn each other when one is about to commit a big mistake. That’s the sign of true friendship. (Would you’ve let a “real” friend buy a house in 2004/2005?)

Below is a link to a WP review of Alistair Horne’s book on French Algeria.

Washington Post book review.  A Savage War of Peace

Link to Marine Colonel article

WP – The Way to Win Guerilla War

[bgates]

Pick one, Perry:
Wanting to win is one thing. Everyone wants to win.
or
I don’t believe that the sacrifices that we’d have to make as a nation are worth a win in Iraq.

If we need another 500,000 troops, then the sacrifice we’d be making as a nation would be restoring the active duty military to the size it was during the Carter administration. We’d have an additional 0.17% of the country in uniform – and that’s assuming all 500,000 came from new enrollment rather than shifting people around (out of Germany, for example.)

I don’t think you appreciate the dangers of defeat in Iraq. You claim to value allies; we have one in Iraq, a flawed one to be sure. If we go back on our word and leave, our ally will be destroyed. What effect will that have on future alliances? Certainly if we were to always do as the French instruct, they would be willing to use us for their own purposes, whether that purpose is keeping alive oil contracts with Saddam or simply restraining our independence. It is breathtakingly naive to describe France as a friend to anyone but itself.

Algeria has some parallels to Iraq, but America has not and will not approach anything like French ruthlessness and disdain for human rights in the first few years of that struggle. The French were fighting (as they always do) to enrich and empower France. We have always been fighting with the goal of establishing a stable, free, independent Iraq. For all the reasons we are different from the French, we have more local support than they did.

If America leaves Iraq, so will the tv cameras. People here will be able to pretend there is no more killing, as we pretended in the 90s when CNN turned a blind eye to Saddam’s killing, as the networks today ignore Central Africa. But people who trusted us will be killed. And the people who made it happen – al Qaeda in Iraq, and Iran’s puppets – do you think they will stop?

[Anonymous]

Keep fighting, bg. You won’t convince PC, Josh, et al., but those of us on the same side enjoy and learn from the spirited case made.

[PerryChase]

bgates, I admire your steadfast adherence to American ideals. I’m more pragmatic.

It’s true that despite the French’s egalitarian ideals, they love power (especially during the colonial era).

If it takes going all out, imposing a state of auterity, reintroducing the draft, raising taxes and sending all the troops necessary to secure and pacify Iraq, I’m all for it. I’m willing to put in my share of the cost. However, I don’t think that the president will call for that. I don’t think that the public would accept such sacrifice unless Bush came up with some more convincing arguments. So far the president has not asked for any sacrifice to support the Iraq war.

Muddling through won’t work. Sending reinforcements here and there will only be throwing goods men after good men. Asking Iran and Syria to help won’t work either because they are already signaling they aren’t that willing to help.

Failing a winning strategy, it’s time to find a face-saving way out.

[Author]

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