Back from vacation. As an American, i feel poor.

[Coronita]

Well, I'm back from my trip from China. The good news is that my house didn't burn down while I was away. Also, apparently despite how terrible the air quality usually is in Beijing, it felt better than the few days here in S.D. I hope everyone here is recovering from the fires, and that everyone is ok…

That said. Something that really struck me when i was in China this time around… I really feel poor. In the past when I went, I felt the good old Greenback went along way. It still does. But major cities in china has changed. A couple of things that stood out while in Beijing

1) Real estate in Beijing was nearly as expensive as real estate in san diego.

2) Cars in Beijing are much more expensive than here in the states, minus a few exceptions

3) Designer/high end clothes and retail is more expensive than what you would find in places like South Coast Plaza.

4) It appears that the "average" joe chinese that many of us think is dirt poor from stereotypes isn't necessarily true anymore. On the streets, roads, tourist areas, boutique shops, I saw plenty of consumption. And it's not the charge now pay later type of consumption, because CC's aren't quite that popular yet. I really can't explain this, but compared to my trip a few years ago, it sees like overnight average joe became wealthier.

5) As the dollar continues to decline, a lot of these upper average joe's in china will have a better cost of living than average joe here.

All this really got my wife and I thinking

a)Man, we really feel poor, relatively speaking. We pay up the noses in taxes. Average upper middle class in china pays very little taxes.

b)It would be foolish for the U.S. government to not relax the tourist visa requirements for China. These folks easily spend on tourism. Paying $3-4k USD to europe and other parts of the world where there is no restrictions is not uncommon.

c) There's got to be a way to tap in to the consumer market in china.

d) The's got to be a way to bridge the U.S real estate to mainland chinese investors. As the dollar continues to decline and the average chinese purchasing power rises, I'm convinced there will be interest from folks purchasing homes here, as I have seen similar trends back in the 90'ies with folks from Taiwan and Korea. Although I doubt the numbers will be significant to save any real estate market, it smells there some opportunity to be made here.

 

If you haven't yet visited Beijing, I would actually recommend going now. Especially that right now, the locals treat foreigners much nicer than folks that look chinese. My only regret is that when I was a child, I didn't take learning my second language more seriously.

 

[patientrenter]

flu, your comments echo what I heard from a friend just back from a visit a month ago. High living standards for many Chinese now.

Patient renter in OC

[nostradamus]

Yes for a communist country they do take to capitalistic ways like fish to water.

I recently took my 4th trip there. My first trips were to the big cities and my impressions were the same as yours: consumerism is on the rise; however, now I’ve started visiting outlying areas and much of the country still lives without many of the things we take for granted. It would be interesting to see the wealth and income gap between the rich and the poor.

Recently I went to the Guanxi region in the southwest, bordering Vietnam. Although there are major tourist areas (Guilin being the biggest tourist attraction to Chinese) most of the areas are dirt poor.

Didn’t you find that, even though the price tags were high, the cost of everything is negotiable?

Of course they were nicer to you: you’ve got beaucoup tourist bucks! The most important phrase I learned was: bu yao la! (I don’t want it) used to fend off the peddlers of kitschy trinkets and crap.

[patientlywaiting]

Notradamus, have you been to Vietnam? I want to go check it out. Here’s an interesting article in BW.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_43/b4055060.htm?chan=search

[nostradamus]

Hi patiently,

Yes, I crossed into Vietnam from De Tian and hung around the border shopping areas for a while but that’s the limit of my exposure. I’ve heard everything is cheap in Vietnam and there are a lot of great places to visit. Thanks for the article!

[nostradamus]

Hi patiently,

Yes, I crossed into Vietnam from De Tian and hung around the border shopping areas for a while but that’s the limit of my exposure. I’ve heard everything is cheap in Vietnam and there are a lot of great places to visit. Thanks for the article!

[nostradamus]

Hi patiently,

Yes, I crossed into Vietnam from De Tian and hung around the border shopping areas for a while but that’s the limit of my exposure. I’ve heard everything is cheap in Vietnam and there are a lot of great places to visit. Thanks for the article!

[patientlywaiting]

Notradamus, have you been to Vietnam? I want to go check it out. Here’s an interesting article in BW.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_43/b4055060.htm?chan=search

[patientlywaiting]

Notradamus, have you been to Vietnam? I want to go check it out. Here’s an interesting article in BW.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_43/b4055060.htm?chan=search

[Coronita]

Yes for a communist country they do take to capitalistic ways like fish to water.

I recently took my 4th trip there. My first trips were to the big cities and my impressions were the same as yours: consumerism is on the rise; however, now I've started visiting outlying areas and much of the country still lives without many of the things we take for granted. It would be interesting to see the wealth and income gap between the rich and the poor.

Recently I went to the Guanxi region in the southwest, bordering Vietnam. Although there are major tourist areas (Guilin being the biggest tourist attraction to Chinese) most of the areas are dirt poor.

Didn't you find that, even though the price tags were high, the cost of everything is negotiable?

Of course they were nicer to you: you've got beaucoup tourist bucks! The most important phrase I learned was: bu yao la! (I don't want it) used to fend off the peddlers of kitschy trinkets and crap.

 

Nostradamus,

I wasn't referring to the doo-dads that are sold on the street being expensive. BTW, if you are interested in that crap, you should be paying around 10-20% of what they are asking. And as far as them being nice. Well, unfortunately, I look chinese (being chinese american). So they weren't so nice to me, as they were to,say, caucasians. When dealing with service related issue, I simply found it more convenient to speak english, because then they would know I wasn't a local and ended up getting better service. Of course when it came to negotiating price, I took the standard, rude, "what are you joking…That expensive for that piece of crap" attitude.

 

 

What I meant mainly in the early posting was regarding the sheer purchasing and consumption that's generally going on in China. It was amazing. The amount of business and the overall spending and consumption that normal chinese people are doing. Everyone I saw had cell phones, some pda/game device, and the latest camera gear. Considering these items are as expensive as they are here in the states (sometimes even more), what struck me interesting was how much average middle class chinese folks spend on these items relative to their income. For example, I saw so many digital SLR cameras. With a low end DSLR being around $600USD, that's a good percentage of a chinese upper middle class income (say about $30-40k USD). Cell phones are $100-$200USD( yes, we're spoiled here because usually we can get one for free with 2year service, but in china, people pay a lot for the phone and have very cheap phone service). Gasoline is about $2.5/gal. For the average chinese upper middle class to be able to spend this disportionate income on these things to me means (1) they are willing to consume (2) they other basic cost of living allows them to spend this way.

To me, it's a symbol of growing wealth. It also seems like there is some opportunity to make some money off of the chinese middle class. On one hand it's alarming relative to our standard of living. On the other hand, it does seem like there is a lot of opportunity for people to do business with the chinese consumer.

 Of course, I also have seen the poor countryside in China too. The wealth gap in China is enormous. I'm curious to see what the Chinese government is going to do to bridge this gap moving forward.

[mixxalot]

China has almost a billion more people than USA

So not surprised and the US government allow China to flood US market with cheap goods and labor. Millions of jobs shipped overseas to China has allowed this to occur as well.

[kewp]

China has almost a billion more people than USA

The vast majority of which are dirt poor to a degree that makes the average American look wealthy.

Easy to forget that!

Anyways, my take is that there is a global rebalancing going on that will bring up the quality of the average Asians life while bringing ours down a peg. Can’t say I have too much of a problem with that.

[kewp]

China has almost a billion more people than USA

The vast majority of which are dirt poor to a degree that makes the average American look wealthy.

Easy to forget that!

Anyways, my take is that there is a global rebalancing going on that will bring up the quality of the average Asians life while bringing ours down a peg. Can’t say I have too much of a problem with that.

[kewp]

China has almost a billion more people than USA

The vast majority of which are dirt poor to a degree that makes the average American look wealthy.

Easy to forget that!

Anyways, my take is that there is a global rebalancing going on that will bring up the quality of the average Asians life while bringing ours down a peg. Can’t say I have too much of a problem with that.

[mixxalot]

China has almost a billion more people than USA

So not surprised and the US government allow China to flood US market with cheap goods and labor. Millions of jobs shipped overseas to China has allowed this to occur as well.

[mixxalot]

China has almost a billion more people than USA

So not surprised and the US government allow China to flood US market with cheap goods and labor. Millions of jobs shipped overseas to China has allowed this to occur as well.

[lostkitty]

Should be “average Cho”…

[patientlywaiting]

Should be "average Cho"…

Cho is Korean.  But look at South Korea.  It's a developed economy with a dynamic industries.  Film editing is big business in Korea.  Many American talents work there in film and advertizing.  You wouldn't know it but many Hollywood movies are edited in Korea. 

Sure, America is still supreme but we need to be more paranoid (as Andy Grove said) and work harder. 

[Dukehorn]

I’m astonished at this post. I feel poor coming back from Europe even though they pay up the nose in taxes. We’re 2:1 vs the pound and 1:1 vs the Canadian dollar (as an example for folks who haven’t been to Europe recently).

Just because China is like Russia, where the well-connected are becoming filthy rich and there’s a sprawling underclass is no reason to be “jealous” unless you’re one of elite.

I wouldn’t even try to equate ourselves with China. Do you have a good sense of how much corruption is going on over there and how much background poverty you are not seeing? Beijing is doing its makeover before the Olympics. They’re kicking out and hiding the poor.

From an economic viewpoint, it is easy to compete when you flaunt IP laws. Taiwan and Korea have gotten to the point that they want to protect their RnD as oppose to pirating it. The fact that China does not enforce its economic laws is not a reason to be jealous. If (and its a big if) they get to the point of commercializing their RnD, they’ll start feeling the pain of turning a blind eye to piracy over the last 15 years.

If you want to be jealous of a crowded, dirty city with no environmental protections, where the IOC in fact just publicly announced that they are worried about the health of the Olympic athletes for the next Summer games, it’s your right.

I told my extended family that I have absolutely no interest in wasting my vacation time in visiting relatives in China when I can be hiking down in Peru or Ecuador and not be caught up by the crass commercialism and culture of excess that you currently see over there.

Also, what does pro-China mean? You support a country that censors the internet and still cracks down on dissidents? A country that claims another country (Taiwan) where the people generally have no interest in becoming part of the mainland. A country that claims that the Dalai Lama is a terrorist? A country that recently bought sub technology from Russia for the express purpose of killing US aircraft carriers?

A country where businessmen have to have mistresses in order to be successful? (well some of my old classmates do)

Get real.

Sorry, I get passionate about this topic. Heck, my parents still go to protests at the UN over this stuff.

[Borat]

I wouldn’t even try to equate ourselves with China. Do you have a good sense of how much corruption is going on over there and how much background poverty you are not seeing?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Yep there is no corruption in the USA. Enron? Just a good business model that got screwed up by a couple of bad apples. And certainly there isn’t any background poverty here in the US. Appalachia? What’s that? South Texas colonias? Never heard of ’em. Mississippi? Isn’t that a kind of pie?

I told my extended family that I have absolutely no interest in wasting my vacation time in visiting relatives in China when I can be hiking down in Peru or Ecuador and not be caught up by the crass commercialism and culture of excess that you currently see over there.

Yes, you’ll be much more comfortable in Peru and Ecuador where all of the wealthy people are protected by high fences and private guards with machine guns to keep the teeming masses of impoverished, malnourished poor from tearing them limb from limb. It’s not all Macchu Picchu and Cuzco down there, trust me. Actually I do recommend travel to South America because it will prepare you for the future of this country. Privatized everything. Rampant corruption. Massive numbers of dispossessed poor people. Old diseases you thought didn’t exist anymore, like leprosy, cholera, and typhoid. Coming soon to your town! Hopefully you’ve got enough money saved up to hire some private guards…

[Borat]

I wouldn’t even try to equate ourselves with China. Do you have a good sense of how much corruption is going on over there and how much background poverty you are not seeing?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Yep there is no corruption in the USA. Enron? Just a good business model that got screwed up by a couple of bad apples. And certainly there isn’t any background poverty here in the US. Appalachia? What’s that? South Texas colonias? Never heard of ’em. Mississippi? Isn’t that a kind of pie?

I told my extended family that I have absolutely no interest in wasting my vacation time in visiting relatives in China when I can be hiking down in Peru or Ecuador and not be caught up by the crass commercialism and culture of excess that you currently see over there.

Yes, you’ll be much more comfortable in Peru and Ecuador where all of the wealthy people are protected by high fences and private guards with machine guns to keep the teeming masses of impoverished, malnourished poor from tearing them limb from limb. It’s not all Macchu Picchu and Cuzco down there, trust me. Actually I do recommend travel to South America because it will prepare you for the future of this country. Privatized everything. Rampant corruption. Massive numbers of dispossessed poor people. Old diseases you thought didn’t exist anymore, like leprosy, cholera, and typhoid. Coming soon to your town! Hopefully you’ve got enough money saved up to hire some private guards…

[Borat]

I wouldn’t even try to equate ourselves with China. Do you have a good sense of how much corruption is going on over there and how much background poverty you are not seeing?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Yep there is no corruption in the USA. Enron? Just a good business model that got screwed up by a couple of bad apples. And certainly there isn’t any background poverty here in the US. Appalachia? What’s that? South Texas colonias? Never heard of ’em. Mississippi? Isn’t that a kind of pie?

I told my extended family that I have absolutely no interest in wasting my vacation time in visiting relatives in China when I can be hiking down in Peru or Ecuador and not be caught up by the crass commercialism and culture of excess that you currently see over there.

Yes, you’ll be much more comfortable in Peru and Ecuador where all of the wealthy people are protected by high fences and private guards with machine guns to keep the teeming masses of impoverished, malnourished poor from tearing them limb from limb. It’s not all Macchu Picchu and Cuzco down there, trust me. Actually I do recommend travel to South America because it will prepare you for the future of this country. Privatized everything. Rampant corruption. Massive numbers of dispossessed poor people. Old diseases you thought didn’t exist anymore, like leprosy, cholera, and typhoid. Coming soon to your town! Hopefully you’ve got enough money saved up to hire some private guards…

[Arty]

Also, what does pro-China mean?

It simply means I maybe biased toward China. For example, if you can’t get through China’s Great Firewall, then you are not as smart as you think. My cousin’s house in Shanghai have all TV channels including all Taiwan’s channels. I think Taiwan is part of China and I don’t buy self-determination crapola. Of course, if Taiwan beats China during the potential invasion, Taiwan can do whatever she wants but not before. Personally, I think Dalai Lama is closer to a terrorist than you think. Let me ask you who opened fire first before his exile (go look at CIA report). And there is nothing wrong to develop military technology. Heck, we are still building new nuclear warheads when we are trying to stop so called the axis of evils from building their first (you do know hypocrites go to one of lowest level of hell right).
As bussinessmen having mistreses, I went out with one of the richest man from Shenzhen according to my cousin, he refuses to go to hostess bars, and we spent whole night in a legit KTV place. My uncle manages 5 factories in Shanghai, he doesn’t have a mistress. Maybe your classmates are just unfaithful husbands. I think it speak more about them and your association with them. Btw, we did went to a hostess bar the next day, and several of the married men actually have their wives with them (and no we didn’t take the hostess out :)).

However, I am still very critical of Chinese policies as you can see from my post above, and I think you are the one need to get REAL.

[Dukehorn]

Hey Borat.

Never said we didn’t have inequities here. I’ve worked with the Peace Corps and Teach for America so I know. Also, when I’m backpacking in South America, I’m not staying in “gated communities”. As for Enron, that’s why Sarbanes Oxley was passed, right?

Totally disingenous to compare the SEC and our policies to what’s going on in China.

As for Pro China man.

What gives China the right to prevent the Taiwanese from self-determination? What makes you think Taiwan should be part of China if most of Taiwan doesn’t want to be? Taiwan has been a struggling democracy for 40 years and developed its industry separately from the communist government.

There’s a big gap between the Taiwanese in the US and the Chinese in the US. Most of the Taiwanese here are US citizens first. A lot of the Chinese here root for China over the US. I’m won’t even go into the psychology behind it.

Also, I never said China couldn’t or shouldn’t develop its military. It is its own sovereign state. My statement is the Chinese military, esp. its navy, is being developed solely to oppose US military influence. That’s fine if you’re a Chinese citizen. If you’re a US citizen, you should be concerned. And if you root for China in a military buildup over the US, give up your citizenship here and go back.

Nice avoidance of the piracy and environmental issues. If your relatives are doing well in China, you know there are some very greased palms there, but feel free to ignore it as a homer.

[patientlywaiting]

What gives China the right to prevent the Taiwanese from self-determination? What makes you think Taiwan should be part of China if most of Taiwan doesn't want to be? Taiwan has been a struggling democracy for 40 years and developed its industry separately from the communist government.

This is a legal issue based on international law.  Taiwan up until about 10 years ago claimed to be part of China and the political leadership claimed to represent all Chinese in the mainland.  The Kuomintang still claims to represent all of China.

So, in the eyes of the world,  how can the Taiwanese renounce something they claimed all along?   If Taiwan wanted to break away from China, it should've done so a long time ago.  

BTW, the USA (and most of the world) says that Taiwan is part of China.

 

[patientlywaiting]

A country where businessmen have to have mistresses in order to be successful?

What's wrong with that? Isn't it a perk of success? Don't all America "leaders" have mistresses also? They just hide it better.

Having multiple relationships is as old as the world itself, even older than the concept of marriage. Look at the Western kings, queens, bishops, cardinals and tycoons. BTW, American businessmen overseas (Eastern Europe, China, etc..) all have mistresses. I’ve seen it myself.

[patientlywaiting]

A country where businessmen have to have mistresses in order to be successful?

What's wrong with that? Isn't it a perk of success? Don't all America "leaders" have mistresses also? They just hide it better.

Having multiple relationships is as old as the world itself, even older than the concept of marriage. Look at the Western kings, queens, bishops, cardinals and tycoons. BTW, American businessmen overseas (Eastern Europe, China, etc..) all have mistresses. I’ve seen it myself.

[patientlywaiting]

A country where businessmen have to have mistresses in order to be successful?

What's wrong with that? Isn't it a perk of success? Don't all America "leaders" have mistresses also? They just hide it better.

Having multiple relationships is as old as the world itself, even older than the concept of marriage. Look at the Western kings, queens, bishops, cardinals and tycoons. BTW, American businessmen overseas (Eastern Europe, China, etc..) all have mistresses. I’ve seen it myself.

[patientlywaiting]

What gives China the right to prevent the Taiwanese from self-determination? What makes you think Taiwan should be part of China if most of Taiwan doesn't want to be? Taiwan has been a struggling democracy for 40 years and developed its industry separately from the communist government.

This is a legal issue based on international law.  Taiwan up until about 10 years ago claimed to be part of China and the political leadership claimed to represent all Chinese in the mainland.  The Kuomintang still claims to represent all of China.

So, in the eyes of the world,  how can the Taiwanese renounce something they claimed all along?   If Taiwan wanted to break away from China, it should've done so a long time ago.  

BTW, the USA (and most of the world) says that Taiwan is part of China.

 

[patientlywaiting]

What gives China the right to prevent the Taiwanese from self-determination? What makes you think Taiwan should be part of China if most of Taiwan doesn't want to be? Taiwan has been a struggling democracy for 40 years and developed its industry separately from the communist government.

This is a legal issue based on international law.  Taiwan up until about 10 years ago claimed to be part of China and the political leadership claimed to represent all Chinese in the mainland.  The Kuomintang still claims to represent all of China.

So, in the eyes of the world,  how can the Taiwanese renounce something they claimed all along?   If Taiwan wanted to break away from China, it should've done so a long time ago.  

BTW, the USA (and most of the world) says that Taiwan is part of China.

 

[Borat]

Duke, you’ve got lots of good points and cheers for roughing it on your travels down there. But I’m sure you’ve seen just how desperate the situation is for so many down there. I was just trying to point out that Chinese corruption, poverty, and pollution isn’t that different than the variety that you see in places like Peru or Ecuador. At least they have elections in Peru as opposed to China, but most of the poor people I met down there didn’t feel that their politicians did anything for them.

The piracy issue is a good one, they don’t respect western property rights at all. And of course they produce massive amounts of pollution and have a bad human rights record. Makes you wonder why we import so many goods from them, doesn’t it? Oh yeah, it’s because Bubba signed that free trade agreement with them back in the 90s. Thanks Bubba.

[Borat]

Duke, you’ve got lots of good points and cheers for roughing it on your travels down there. But I’m sure you’ve seen just how desperate the situation is for so many down there. I was just trying to point out that Chinese corruption, poverty, and pollution isn’t that different than the variety that you see in places like Peru or Ecuador. At least they have elections in Peru as opposed to China, but most of the poor people I met down there didn’t feel that their politicians did anything for them.

The piracy issue is a good one, they don’t respect western property rights at all. And of course they produce massive amounts of pollution and have a bad human rights record. Makes you wonder why we import so many goods from them, doesn’t it? Oh yeah, it’s because Bubba signed that free trade agreement with them back in the 90s. Thanks Bubba.

[Borat]

Duke, you’ve got lots of good points and cheers for roughing it on your travels down there. But I’m sure you’ve seen just how desperate the situation is for so many down there. I was just trying to point out that Chinese corruption, poverty, and pollution isn’t that different than the variety that you see in places like Peru or Ecuador. At least they have elections in Peru as opposed to China, but most of the poor people I met down there didn’t feel that their politicians did anything for them.

The piracy issue is a good one, they don’t respect western property rights at all. And of course they produce massive amounts of pollution and have a bad human rights record. Makes you wonder why we import so many goods from them, doesn’t it? Oh yeah, it’s because Bubba signed that free trade agreement with them back in the 90s. Thanks Bubba.

[Arty]

There’s a big gap between the Taiwanese in the US and the Chinese in the US. Most of the Taiwanese here are US citizens first. A lot of the Chinese here root for China over the US. I’m won’t even go into the psychology behind it.

Funny that I am from Taiwan originally as a kid. Your personal assumption clear at faults here. In addition, I will always put US interest before China. Unlike people like you simply against China because it’s China and making tons of faulty assumptions. Hack, I bet you don’t even speak Chinese or at least a broken one at best.

If you’re a US citizen, you should be concerned. And if you root for China in a military buildup over the US, give up your citizenship here and go back.

Solely to oppose US military influence? Are you smoking something or you are a right-wing wacko? We are number 1 right now, anyone who is developing weapons are trying to oppose our military influence, and I don’t see how you can say China is building over us. China simply building something we had since the 70s. Btw, we still out spend China in military by several folds at least. In addition, stop using the line “give up your citizenship here and go back.” I am simply been critical of both sides probably more critical about the US policies because I truely cares unlike zombies like you.

Nice avoidance of the piracy and environmental issues. If your relatives are doing well in China, you know there are some very greased palms there, but feel free to ignore it as a homer.

Did you read my first post? I did mention that there is a gray-haze over Shanghai and the freaking 2nd hand smokes in-door. I also mentioned many other problems about how generally people are not making that much and its overheated stock market. I don’t find piracy to be that bad in China because most people I know have downloaded pirated things online in the US anyway. Don’t forget Bittorrent is invented here.

[nostradamus]

My how this thread has digressed! Just a few comments:

What’s this about a man requiring a mistress to be successful in business? Although it may be common, I think someone has been watching too many propaganda movies. Why are people prone to make such silly generalizations? Travel more, get out, broaden your mind. Getting facts from the boob tube makes you a boob.

Taiwan independence: I went to Taiwan and asked just about everyone who was willing to talk to me about it what they thought about China’s stance on Taiwan. I was surprised to find that about 50% of the people I talked to were in favor of Taiwan being part of China. I looked into it further and found that polls have shown the same thing: about 50% of Taiwanese favor being part of China. Again, I suspect that the whole conflict might be something of a charade of sensationalistic news reports or some political anti-China rhetoric.

That being said, I would be sad to see Taiwan become part of China. Each has their own “flavor” and I like them both the way they are. Taiwan has as unique a history as China does and embraces a much different mentality than mainland Chinese… Also, I like driving around and seeing the scantily-clad Betelnut girls in their little kiosks by the side of the road… 🙂 Makes our boldest billboards look like rated G.

[lniles]

We must have the same travel agent! I went to some of those poverty-stricken regions as part of a group which builds schools in poor areas. Check out my short vid:

I also made a vid in Taiwan:

[lniles]

We must have the same travel agent! I went to some of those poverty-stricken regions as part of a group which builds schools in poor areas. Check out my short vid:

I also made a vid in Taiwan:

[lniles]

We must have the same travel agent! I went to some of those poverty-stricken regions as part of a group which builds schools in poor areas. Check out my short vid:

I also made a vid in Taiwan:

[Coronita]

Taiwan independence: I went to Taiwan and asked just about everyone who was willing to talk to me about it what they thought about China's stance on Taiwan. I was surprised to find that about 50% of the people I talked to were in favor of Taiwan being part of China. I looked into it further and found that polls have shown the same thing: about 50% of Taiwanese favor being part of China. Again, I suspect that the whole conflict might be something of a charade of sensationalistic news reports or some political anti-China rhetoric.

 

OT: TAIWAN IS NOT PART OF CHINA. Even though my wife seems to  mysteriously think so. Source of large debate in my family. But that's what happens when someone with taiwanese roots marries someone from PRC. 

 

[Coronita]

Taiwan independence: I went to Taiwan and asked just about everyone who was willing to talk to me about it what they thought about China's stance on Taiwan. I was surprised to find that about 50% of the people I talked to were in favor of Taiwan being part of China. I looked into it further and found that polls have shown the same thing: about 50% of Taiwanese favor being part of China. Again, I suspect that the whole conflict might be something of a charade of sensationalistic news reports or some political anti-China rhetoric.

 

OT: TAIWAN IS NOT PART OF CHINA. Even though my wife seems to  mysteriously think so. Source of large debate in my family. But that's what happens when someone with taiwanese roots marries someone from PRC. 

 

[Coronita]

Taiwan independence: I went to Taiwan and asked just about everyone who was willing to talk to me about it what they thought about China's stance on Taiwan. I was surprised to find that about 50% of the people I talked to were in favor of Taiwan being part of China. I looked into it further and found that polls have shown the same thing: about 50% of Taiwanese favor being part of China. Again, I suspect that the whole conflict might be something of a charade of sensationalistic news reports or some political anti-China rhetoric.

 

OT: TAIWAN IS NOT PART OF CHINA. Even though my wife seems to  mysteriously think so. Source of large debate in my family. But that's what happens when someone with taiwanese roots marries someone from PRC. 

 

[nostradamus]

My how this thread has digressed! Just a few comments:

What’s this about a man requiring a mistress to be successful in business? Although it may be common, I think someone has been watching too many propaganda movies. Why are people prone to make such silly generalizations? Travel more, get out, broaden your mind. Getting facts from the boob tube makes you a boob.

Taiwan independence: I went to Taiwan and asked just about everyone who was willing to talk to me about it what they thought about China’s stance on Taiwan. I was surprised to find that about 50% of the people I talked to were in favor of Taiwan being part of China. I looked into it further and found that polls have shown the same thing: about 50% of Taiwanese favor being part of China. Again, I suspect that the whole conflict might be something of a charade of sensationalistic news reports or some political anti-China rhetoric.

That being said, I would be sad to see Taiwan become part of China. Each has their own “flavor” and I like them both the way they are. Taiwan has as unique a history as China does and embraces a much different mentality than mainland Chinese… Also, I like driving around and seeing the scantily-clad Betelnut girls in their little kiosks by the side of the road… 🙂 Makes our boldest billboards look like rated G.

[nostradamus]

My how this thread has digressed! Just a few comments:

What’s this about a man requiring a mistress to be successful in business? Although it may be common, I think someone has been watching too many propaganda movies. Why are people prone to make such silly generalizations? Travel more, get out, broaden your mind. Getting facts from the boob tube makes you a boob.

Taiwan independence: I went to Taiwan and asked just about everyone who was willing to talk to me about it what they thought about China’s stance on Taiwan. I was surprised to find that about 50% of the people I talked to were in favor of Taiwan being part of China. I looked into it further and found that polls have shown the same thing: about 50% of Taiwanese favor being part of China. Again, I suspect that the whole conflict might be something of a charade of sensationalistic news reports or some political anti-China rhetoric.

That being said, I would be sad to see Taiwan become part of China. Each has their own “flavor” and I like them both the way they are. Taiwan has as unique a history as China does and embraces a much different mentality than mainland Chinese… Also, I like driving around and seeing the scantily-clad Betelnut girls in their little kiosks by the side of the road… 🙂 Makes our boldest billboards look like rated G.

[Arty]

There’s a big gap between the Taiwanese in the US and the Chinese in the US. Most of the Taiwanese here are US citizens first. A lot of the Chinese here root for China over the US. I’m won’t even go into the psychology behind it.

Funny that I am from Taiwan originally as a kid. Your personal assumption clear at faults here. In addition, I will always put US interest before China. Unlike people like you simply against China because it’s China and making tons of faulty assumptions. Hack, I bet you don’t even speak Chinese or at least a broken one at best.

If you’re a US citizen, you should be concerned. And if you root for China in a military buildup over the US, give up your citizenship here and go back.

Solely to oppose US military influence? Are you smoking something or you are a right-wing wacko? We are number 1 right now, anyone who is developing weapons are trying to oppose our military influence, and I don’t see how you can say China is building over us. China simply building something we had since the 70s. Btw, we still out spend China in military by several folds at least. In addition, stop using the line “give up your citizenship here and go back.” I am simply been critical of both sides probably more critical about the US policies because I truely cares unlike zombies like you.

Nice avoidance of the piracy and environmental issues. If your relatives are doing well in China, you know there are some very greased palms there, but feel free to ignore it as a homer.

Did you read my first post? I did mention that there is a gray-haze over Shanghai and the freaking 2nd hand smokes in-door. I also mentioned many other problems about how generally people are not making that much and its overheated stock market. I don’t find piracy to be that bad in China because most people I know have downloaded pirated things online in the US anyway. Don’t forget Bittorrent is invented here.

[Arty]

There’s a big gap between the Taiwanese in the US and the Chinese in the US. Most of the Taiwanese here are US citizens first. A lot of the Chinese here root for China over the US. I’m won’t even go into the psychology behind it.

Funny that I am from Taiwan originally as a kid. Your personal assumption clear at faults here. In addition, I will always put US interest before China. Unlike people like you simply against China because it’s China and making tons of faulty assumptions. Hack, I bet you don’t even speak Chinese or at least a broken one at best.

If you’re a US citizen, you should be concerned. And if you root for China in a military buildup over the US, give up your citizenship here and go back.

Solely to oppose US military influence? Are you smoking something or you are a right-wing wacko? We are number 1 right now, anyone who is developing weapons are trying to oppose our military influence, and I don’t see how you can say China is building over us. China simply building something we had since the 70s. Btw, we still out spend China in military by several folds at least. In addition, stop using the line “give up your citizenship here and go back.” I am simply been critical of both sides probably more critical about the US policies because I truely cares unlike zombies like you.

Nice avoidance of the piracy and environmental issues. If your relatives are doing well in China, you know there are some very greased palms there, but feel free to ignore it as a homer.

Did you read my first post? I did mention that there is a gray-haze over Shanghai and the freaking 2nd hand smokes in-door. I also mentioned many other problems about how generally people are not making that much and its overheated stock market. I don’t find piracy to be that bad in China because most people I know have downloaded pirated things online in the US anyway. Don’t forget Bittorrent is invented here.

[Dukehorn]

Hey Borat.

Never said we didn’t have inequities here. I’ve worked with the Peace Corps and Teach for America so I know. Also, when I’m backpacking in South America, I’m not staying in “gated communities”. As for Enron, that’s why Sarbanes Oxley was passed, right?

Totally disingenous to compare the SEC and our policies to what’s going on in China.

As for Pro China man.

What gives China the right to prevent the Taiwanese from self-determination? What makes you think Taiwan should be part of China if most of Taiwan doesn’t want to be? Taiwan has been a struggling democracy for 40 years and developed its industry separately from the communist government.

There’s a big gap between the Taiwanese in the US and the Chinese in the US. Most of the Taiwanese here are US citizens first. A lot of the Chinese here root for China over the US. I’m won’t even go into the psychology behind it.

Also, I never said China couldn’t or shouldn’t develop its military. It is its own sovereign state. My statement is the Chinese military, esp. its navy, is being developed solely to oppose US military influence. That’s fine if you’re a Chinese citizen. If you’re a US citizen, you should be concerned. And if you root for China in a military buildup over the US, give up your citizenship here and go back.

Nice avoidance of the piracy and environmental issues. If your relatives are doing well in China, you know there are some very greased palms there, but feel free to ignore it as a homer.

[Dukehorn]

Hey Borat.

Never said we didn’t have inequities here. I’ve worked with the Peace Corps and Teach for America so I know. Also, when I’m backpacking in South America, I’m not staying in “gated communities”. As for Enron, that’s why Sarbanes Oxley was passed, right?

Totally disingenous to compare the SEC and our policies to what’s going on in China.

As for Pro China man.

What gives China the right to prevent the Taiwanese from self-determination? What makes you think Taiwan should be part of China if most of Taiwan doesn’t want to be? Taiwan has been a struggling democracy for 40 years and developed its industry separately from the communist government.

There’s a big gap between the Taiwanese in the US and the Chinese in the US. Most of the Taiwanese here are US citizens first. A lot of the Chinese here root for China over the US. I’m won’t even go into the psychology behind it.

Also, I never said China couldn’t or shouldn’t develop its military. It is its own sovereign state. My statement is the Chinese military, esp. its navy, is being developed solely to oppose US military influence. That’s fine if you’re a Chinese citizen. If you’re a US citizen, you should be concerned. And if you root for China in a military buildup over the US, give up your citizenship here and go back.

Nice avoidance of the piracy and environmental issues. If your relatives are doing well in China, you know there are some very greased palms there, but feel free to ignore it as a homer.

[Arty]

Also, what does pro-China mean?

It simply means I maybe biased toward China. For example, if you can’t get through China’s Great Firewall, then you are not as smart as you think. My cousin’s house in Shanghai have all TV channels including all Taiwan’s channels. I think Taiwan is part of China and I don’t buy self-determination crapola. Of course, if Taiwan beats China during the potential invasion, Taiwan can do whatever she wants but not before. Personally, I think Dalai Lama is closer to a terrorist than you think. Let me ask you who opened fire first before his exile (go look at CIA report). And there is nothing wrong to develop military technology. Heck, we are still building new nuclear warheads when we are trying to stop so called the axis of evils from building their first (you do know hypocrites go to one of lowest level of hell right).
As bussinessmen having mistreses, I went out with one of the richest man from Shenzhen according to my cousin, he refuses to go to hostess bars, and we spent whole night in a legit KTV place. My uncle manages 5 factories in Shanghai, he doesn’t have a mistress. Maybe your classmates are just unfaithful husbands. I think it speak more about them and your association with them. Btw, we did went to a hostess bar the next day, and several of the married men actually have their wives with them (and no we didn’t take the hostess out :)).

However, I am still very critical of Chinese policies as you can see from my post above, and I think you are the one need to get REAL.

[Arty]

Also, what does pro-China mean?

It simply means I maybe biased toward China. For example, if you can’t get through China’s Great Firewall, then you are not as smart as you think. My cousin’s house in Shanghai have all TV channels including all Taiwan’s channels. I think Taiwan is part of China and I don’t buy self-determination crapola. Of course, if Taiwan beats China during the potential invasion, Taiwan can do whatever she wants but not before. Personally, I think Dalai Lama is closer to a terrorist than you think. Let me ask you who opened fire first before his exile (go look at CIA report). And there is nothing wrong to develop military technology. Heck, we are still building new nuclear warheads when we are trying to stop so called the axis of evils from building their first (you do know hypocrites go to one of lowest level of hell right).
As bussinessmen having mistreses, I went out with one of the richest man from Shenzhen according to my cousin, he refuses to go to hostess bars, and we spent whole night in a legit KTV place. My uncle manages 5 factories in Shanghai, he doesn’t have a mistress. Maybe your classmates are just unfaithful husbands. I think it speak more about them and your association with them. Btw, we did went to a hostess bar the next day, and several of the married men actually have their wives with them (and no we didn’t take the hostess out :)).

However, I am still very critical of Chinese policies as you can see from my post above, and I think you are the one need to get REAL.

[Dukehorn]

I’m astonished at this post. I feel poor coming back from Europe even though they pay up the nose in taxes. We’re 2:1 vs the pound and 1:1 vs the Canadian dollar (as an example for folks who haven’t been to Europe recently).

Just because China is like Russia, where the well-connected are becoming filthy rich and there’s a sprawling underclass is no reason to be “jealous” unless you’re one of elite.

I wouldn’t even try to equate ourselves with China. Do you have a good sense of how much corruption is going on over there and how much background poverty you are not seeing? Beijing is doing its makeover before the Olympics. They’re kicking out and hiding the poor.

From an economic viewpoint, it is easy to compete when you flaunt IP laws. Taiwan and Korea have gotten to the point that they want to protect their RnD as oppose to pirating it. The fact that China does not enforce its economic laws is not a reason to be jealous. If (and its a big if) they get to the point of commercializing their RnD, they’ll start feeling the pain of turning a blind eye to piracy over the last 15 years.

If you want to be jealous of a crowded, dirty city with no environmental protections, where the IOC in fact just publicly announced that they are worried about the health of the Olympic athletes for the next Summer games, it’s your right.

I told my extended family that I have absolutely no interest in wasting my vacation time in visiting relatives in China when I can be hiking down in Peru or Ecuador and not be caught up by the crass commercialism and culture of excess that you currently see over there.

Also, what does pro-China mean? You support a country that censors the internet and still cracks down on dissidents? A country that claims another country (Taiwan) where the people generally have no interest in becoming part of the mainland. A country that claims that the Dalai Lama is a terrorist? A country that recently bought sub technology from Russia for the express purpose of killing US aircraft carriers?

A country where businessmen have to have mistresses in order to be successful? (well some of my old classmates do)

Get real.

Sorry, I get passionate about this topic. Heck, my parents still go to protests at the UN over this stuff.

[Dukehorn]

I’m astonished at this post. I feel poor coming back from Europe even though they pay up the nose in taxes. We’re 2:1 vs the pound and 1:1 vs the Canadian dollar (as an example for folks who haven’t been to Europe recently).

Just because China is like Russia, where the well-connected are becoming filthy rich and there’s a sprawling underclass is no reason to be “jealous” unless you’re one of elite.

I wouldn’t even try to equate ourselves with China. Do you have a good sense of how much corruption is going on over there and how much background poverty you are not seeing? Beijing is doing its makeover before the Olympics. They’re kicking out and hiding the poor.

From an economic viewpoint, it is easy to compete when you flaunt IP laws. Taiwan and Korea have gotten to the point that they want to protect their RnD as oppose to pirating it. The fact that China does not enforce its economic laws is not a reason to be jealous. If (and its a big if) they get to the point of commercializing their RnD, they’ll start feeling the pain of turning a blind eye to piracy over the last 15 years.

If you want to be jealous of a crowded, dirty city with no environmental protections, where the IOC in fact just publicly announced that they are worried about the health of the Olympic athletes for the next Summer games, it’s your right.

I told my extended family that I have absolutely no interest in wasting my vacation time in visiting relatives in China when I can be hiking down in Peru or Ecuador and not be caught up by the crass commercialism and culture of excess that you currently see over there.

Also, what does pro-China mean? You support a country that censors the internet and still cracks down on dissidents? A country that claims another country (Taiwan) where the people generally have no interest in becoming part of the mainland. A country that claims that the Dalai Lama is a terrorist? A country that recently bought sub technology from Russia for the express purpose of killing US aircraft carriers?

A country where businessmen have to have mistresses in order to be successful? (well some of my old classmates do)

Get real.

Sorry, I get passionate about this topic. Heck, my parents still go to protests at the UN over this stuff.

[patientlywaiting]

Should be "average Cho"…

Cho is Korean.  But look at South Korea.  It's a developed economy with a dynamic industries.  Film editing is big business in Korea.  Many American talents work there in film and advertizing.  You wouldn't know it but many Hollywood movies are edited in Korea. 

Sure, America is still supreme but we need to be more paranoid (as Andy Grove said) and work harder. 

[patientlywaiting]

Should be "average Cho"…

Cho is Korean.  But look at South Korea.  It's a developed economy with a dynamic industries.  Film editing is big business in Korea.  Many American talents work there in film and advertizing.  You wouldn't know it but many Hollywood movies are edited in Korea. 

Sure, America is still supreme but we need to be more paranoid (as Andy Grove said) and work harder. 

[lostkitty]

Should be “average Cho”…

[lostkitty]

Should be “average Cho”…

[Coronita]

Yes for a communist country they do take to capitalistic ways like fish to water.

I recently took my 4th trip there. My first trips were to the big cities and my impressions were the same as yours: consumerism is on the rise; however, now I've started visiting outlying areas and much of the country still lives without many of the things we take for granted. It would be interesting to see the wealth and income gap between the rich and the poor.

Recently I went to the Guanxi region in the southwest, bordering Vietnam. Although there are major tourist areas (Guilin being the biggest tourist attraction to Chinese) most of the areas are dirt poor.

Didn't you find that, even though the price tags were high, the cost of everything is negotiable?

Of course they were nicer to you: you've got beaucoup tourist bucks! The most important phrase I learned was: bu yao la! (I don't want it) used to fend off the peddlers of kitschy trinkets and crap.

 

Nostradamus,

I wasn't referring to the doo-dads that are sold on the street being expensive. BTW, if you are interested in that crap, you should be paying around 10-20% of what they are asking. And as far as them being nice. Well, unfortunately, I look chinese (being chinese american). So they weren't so nice to me, as they were to,say, caucasians. When dealing with service related issue, I simply found it more convenient to speak english, because then they would know I wasn't a local and ended up getting better service. Of course when it came to negotiating price, I took the standard, rude, "what are you joking…That expensive for that piece of crap" attitude.

 

 

What I meant mainly in the early posting was regarding the sheer purchasing and consumption that's generally going on in China. It was amazing. The amount of business and the overall spending and consumption that normal chinese people are doing. Everyone I saw had cell phones, some pda/game device, and the latest camera gear. Considering these items are as expensive as they are here in the states (sometimes even more), what struck me interesting was how much average middle class chinese folks spend on these items relative to their income. For example, I saw so many digital SLR cameras. With a low end DSLR being around $600USD, that's a good percentage of a chinese upper middle class income (say about $30-40k USD). Cell phones are $100-$200USD( yes, we're spoiled here because usually we can get one for free with 2year service, but in china, people pay a lot for the phone and have very cheap phone service). Gasoline is about $2.5/gal. For the average chinese upper middle class to be able to spend this disportionate income on these things to me means (1) they are willing to consume (2) they other basic cost of living allows them to spend this way.

To me, it's a symbol of growing wealth. It also seems like there is some opportunity to make some money off of the chinese middle class. On one hand it's alarming relative to our standard of living. On the other hand, it does seem like there is a lot of opportunity for people to do business with the chinese consumer.

 Of course, I also have seen the poor countryside in China too. The wealth gap in China is enormous. I'm curious to see what the Chinese government is going to do to bridge this gap moving forward.

[Coronita]

Yes for a communist country they do take to capitalistic ways like fish to water.

I recently took my 4th trip there. My first trips were to the big cities and my impressions were the same as yours: consumerism is on the rise; however, now I've started visiting outlying areas and much of the country still lives without many of the things we take for granted. It would be interesting to see the wealth and income gap between the rich and the poor.

Recently I went to the Guanxi region in the southwest, bordering Vietnam. Although there are major tourist areas (Guilin being the biggest tourist attraction to Chinese) most of the areas are dirt poor.

Didn't you find that, even though the price tags were high, the cost of everything is negotiable?

Of course they were nicer to you: you've got beaucoup tourist bucks! The most important phrase I learned was: bu yao la! (I don't want it) used to fend off the peddlers of kitschy trinkets and crap.

 

Nostradamus,

I wasn't referring to the doo-dads that are sold on the street being expensive. BTW, if you are interested in that crap, you should be paying around 10-20% of what they are asking. And as far as them being nice. Well, unfortunately, I look chinese (being chinese american). So they weren't so nice to me, as they were to,say, caucasians. When dealing with service related issue, I simply found it more convenient to speak english, because then they would know I wasn't a local and ended up getting better service. Of course when it came to negotiating price, I took the standard, rude, "what are you joking…That expensive for that piece of crap" attitude.

 

 

What I meant mainly in the early posting was regarding the sheer purchasing and consumption that's generally going on in China. It was amazing. The amount of business and the overall spending and consumption that normal chinese people are doing. Everyone I saw had cell phones, some pda/game device, and the latest camera gear. Considering these items are as expensive as they are here in the states (sometimes even more), what struck me interesting was how much average middle class chinese folks spend on these items relative to their income. For example, I saw so many digital SLR cameras. With a low end DSLR being around $600USD, that's a good percentage of a chinese upper middle class income (say about $30-40k USD). Cell phones are $100-$200USD( yes, we're spoiled here because usually we can get one for free with 2year service, but in china, people pay a lot for the phone and have very cheap phone service). Gasoline is about $2.5/gal. For the average chinese upper middle class to be able to spend this disportionate income on these things to me means (1) they are willing to consume (2) they other basic cost of living allows them to spend this way.

To me, it's a symbol of growing wealth. It also seems like there is some opportunity to make some money off of the chinese middle class. On one hand it's alarming relative to our standard of living. On the other hand, it does seem like there is a lot of opportunity for people to do business with the chinese consumer.

 Of course, I also have seen the poor countryside in China too. The wealth gap in China is enormous. I'm curious to see what the Chinese government is going to do to bridge this gap moving forward.

[nostradamus]

Yes for a communist country they do take to capitalistic ways like fish to water.

I recently took my 4th trip there. My first trips were to the big cities and my impressions were the same as yours: consumerism is on the rise; however, now I’ve started visiting outlying areas and much of the country still lives without many of the things we take for granted. It would be interesting to see the wealth and income gap between the rich and the poor.

Recently I went to the Guanxi region in the southwest, bordering Vietnam. Although there are major tourist areas (Guilin being the biggest tourist attraction to Chinese) most of the areas are dirt poor.

Didn’t you find that, even though the price tags were high, the cost of everything is negotiable?

Of course they were nicer to you: you’ve got beaucoup tourist bucks! The most important phrase I learned was: bu yao la! (I don’t want it) used to fend off the peddlers of kitschy trinkets and crap.

[nostradamus]

Yes for a communist country they do take to capitalistic ways like fish to water.

I recently took my 4th trip there. My first trips were to the big cities and my impressions were the same as yours: consumerism is on the rise; however, now I’ve started visiting outlying areas and much of the country still lives without many of the things we take for granted. It would be interesting to see the wealth and income gap between the rich and the poor.

Recently I went to the Guanxi region in the southwest, bordering Vietnam. Although there are major tourist areas (Guilin being the biggest tourist attraction to Chinese) most of the areas are dirt poor.

Didn’t you find that, even though the price tags were high, the cost of everything is negotiable?

Of course they were nicer to you: you’ve got beaucoup tourist bucks! The most important phrase I learned was: bu yao la! (I don’t want it) used to fend off the peddlers of kitschy trinkets and crap.

[patientlywaiting]

Very true. I go to Asia once a year (going for new year). Hotels there are more expensive than in LA. Shanghai and Beijing are changing fast. The Shanghai Urban Planning Museum is simply amazing. Public transport is great. The Mag Lev train is awesome! China is a lot more dynamic than America as everyone is running around looking to make money.

Sure, China is still poor but out of the total population, you have at least 200 million middle and upper income earners. Think of how America was to Europe in the late 1800s.

My good friends who are Chinese and retired sold their home and moved to Beijing to be near their two sons who work there. The sons say that LA is too laid back and when they lived in LA, they didn’t feel driven. BTW, they sold their LA house at the peak and moved all their money to Hong Kong. If they tire of China they’ll be able to move back and buy at 1/2 price. But I doubt they’ll ever come back.

Americans and Europeans are everywhere looking for business opportunities in China.

Read Tom Friedman and be very worried. As America is bogged down in Iraq, China is extending it’s business tentacles around the globe. If you want a good future for your children, make sure they learn Chinese and go on exchange programs in China.

[Arty]

I am a Chinese American, pro-China, and I just got back from Shanghai last weekend. Yes, there are growing middle class – I have never seen so many VW in my life. However, majority of China’s wealth is still in the control of its government (land tenure for example). Average joel make less than 10,000 US dollars even in Shanghai, and that’s consider good pay (there is a saying in Shanghai that an ideal husband should make 7000 rmb a month). The stock market is so over-priced especially after last week’s run on HK stock exchange. And don’t forget the constant gray-haze air pollution in Shanghai; plus the 2nd hand smokes in-door. I think we have our troubles and China has its. Who will come up on top? I think US still will because we are in a far better position from the beginning. Of course, we maybe at the beginning of the end of the American Empire.

These been said. I did enjoy my trip to China. The services and goods were cheap if you knew your way. The hotel room you could get at least 25% off. I brought most of my gifts there for a minimum of 50% off, and I still felt that I was getting ripped off. I like the massage places (I went to the top one), and I got an hour massage for less than 10 US dollars. The food is about half of US price at a good restaruant. However, there are also very expansive places, I ate at a Japanese buffet place that cost 288 rmb (~35 dollars), and I went to a night club that cost way too much (but an eye opening experience). China is growthing fast but I will suggest it take its time to solve its problems first before they blow up in its face.

[Arty]

I am a Chinese American, pro-China, and I just got back from Shanghai last weekend. Yes, there are growing middle class – I have never seen so many VW in my life. However, majority of China’s wealth is still in the control of its government (land tenure for example). Average joel make less than 10,000 US dollars even in Shanghai, and that’s consider good pay (there is a saying in Shanghai that an ideal husband should make 7000 rmb a month). The stock market is so over-priced especially after last week’s run on HK stock exchange. And don’t forget the constant gray-haze air pollution in Shanghai; plus the 2nd hand smokes in-door. I think we have our troubles and China has its. Who will come up on top? I think US still will because we are in a far better position from the beginning. Of course, we maybe at the beginning of the end of the American Empire.

These been said. I did enjoy my trip to China. The services and goods were cheap if you knew your way. The hotel room you could get at least 25% off. I brought most of my gifts there for a minimum of 50% off, and I still felt that I was getting ripped off. I like the massage places (I went to the top one), and I got an hour massage for less than 10 US dollars. The food is about half of US price at a good restaruant. However, there are also very expansive places, I ate at a Japanese buffet place that cost 288 rmb (~35 dollars), and I went to a night club that cost way too much (but an eye opening experience). China is growthing fast but I will suggest it take its time to solve its problems first before they blow up in its face.

[Arty]

I am a Chinese American, pro-China, and I just got back from Shanghai last weekend. Yes, there are growing middle class – I have never seen so many VW in my life. However, majority of China’s wealth is still in the control of its government (land tenure for example). Average joel make less than 10,000 US dollars even in Shanghai, and that’s consider good pay (there is a saying in Shanghai that an ideal husband should make 7000 rmb a month). The stock market is so over-priced especially after last week’s run on HK stock exchange. And don’t forget the constant gray-haze air pollution in Shanghai; plus the 2nd hand smokes in-door. I think we have our troubles and China has its. Who will come up on top? I think US still will because we are in a far better position from the beginning. Of course, we maybe at the beginning of the end of the American Empire.

These been said. I did enjoy my trip to China. The services and goods were cheap if you knew your way. The hotel room you could get at least 25% off. I brought most of my gifts there for a minimum of 50% off, and I still felt that I was getting ripped off. I like the massage places (I went to the top one), and I got an hour massage for less than 10 US dollars. The food is about half of US price at a good restaruant. However, there are also very expansive places, I ate at a Japanese buffet place that cost 288 rmb (~35 dollars), and I went to a night club that cost way too much (but an eye opening experience). China is growthing fast but I will suggest it take its time to solve its problems first before they blow up in its face.

[patientlywaiting]

Very true. I go to Asia once a year (going for new year). Hotels there are more expensive than in LA. Shanghai and Beijing are changing fast. The Shanghai Urban Planning Museum is simply amazing. Public transport is great. The Mag Lev train is awesome! China is a lot more dynamic than America as everyone is running around looking to make money.

Sure, China is still poor but out of the total population, you have at least 200 million middle and upper income earners. Think of how America was to Europe in the late 1800s.

My good friends who are Chinese and retired sold their home and moved to Beijing to be near their two sons who work there. The sons say that LA is too laid back and when they lived in LA, they didn’t feel driven. BTW, they sold their LA house at the peak and moved all their money to Hong Kong. If they tire of China they’ll be able to move back and buy at 1/2 price. But I doubt they’ll ever come back.

Americans and Europeans are everywhere looking for business opportunities in China.

Read Tom Friedman and be very worried. As America is bogged down in Iraq, China is extending it’s business tentacles around the globe. If you want a good future for your children, make sure they learn Chinese and go on exchange programs in China.

[patientlywaiting]

Very true. I go to Asia once a year (going for new year). Hotels there are more expensive than in LA. Shanghai and Beijing are changing fast. The Shanghai Urban Planning Museum is simply amazing. Public transport is great. The Mag Lev train is awesome! China is a lot more dynamic than America as everyone is running around looking to make money.

Sure, China is still poor but out of the total population, you have at least 200 million middle and upper income earners. Think of how America was to Europe in the late 1800s.

My good friends who are Chinese and retired sold their home and moved to Beijing to be near their two sons who work there. The sons say that LA is too laid back and when they lived in LA, they didn’t feel driven. BTW, they sold their LA house at the peak and moved all their money to Hong Kong. If they tire of China they’ll be able to move back and buy at 1/2 price. But I doubt they’ll ever come back.

Americans and Europeans are everywhere looking for business opportunities in China.

Read Tom Friedman and be very worried. As America is bogged down in Iraq, China is extending it’s business tentacles around the globe. If you want a good future for your children, make sure they learn Chinese and go on exchange programs in China.

[patientrenter]

flu, your comments echo what I heard from a friend just back from a visit a month ago. High living standards for many Chinese now.

Patient renter in OC

[patientrenter]

flu, your comments echo what I heard from a friend just back from a visit a month ago. High living standards for many Chinese now.

Patient renter in OC

[greensd]

I’ve never been to China, but I’ve been lots of other places, and a trap I know it’s easy to fall into is to assume that people you see on the street have everything you take for granted as an American *plus* the extra stuff you see. That’s not necessarily the case. So, for example, they might have a new car, designer clothes, and the latest cell phone, but you don’t see that they live with three generations of their family in a two room flat, or they only have electricity 22 hours a day, or they share a bathroom with the whole neighborhood, or they work 65 hours a week, or they have untreated tuberculosis, or whatever. You might not feel as poor as an American if you knew the whole story of their lives.

[greensd]

I’ve never been to China, but I’ve been lots of other places, and a trap I know it’s easy to fall into is to assume that people you see on the street have everything you take for granted as an American *plus* the extra stuff you see. That’s not necessarily the case. So, for example, they might have a new car, designer clothes, and the latest cell phone, but you don’t see that they live with three generations of their family in a two room flat, or they only have electricity 22 hours a day, or they share a bathroom with the whole neighborhood, or they work 65 hours a week, or they have untreated tuberculosis, or whatever. You might not feel as poor as an American if you knew the whole story of their lives.

[greensd]

I’ve never been to China, but I’ve been lots of other places, and a trap I know it’s easy to fall into is to assume that people you see on the street have everything you take for granted as an American *plus* the extra stuff you see. That’s not necessarily the case. So, for example, they might have a new car, designer clothes, and the latest cell phone, but you don’t see that they live with three generations of their family in a two room flat, or they only have electricity 22 hours a day, or they share a bathroom with the whole neighborhood, or they work 65 hours a week, or they have untreated tuberculosis, or whatever. You might not feel as poor as an American if you knew the whole story of their lives.

[JWM in SD]

“…As an American, i feel poor.”

And you will feel poorer still thanks to Benny this afternoon. I haven’t been to China since ’99 so a lot has changed since then. IT was like being on another planet back then.

[patientlywaiting]

Man, soon to be 1.5 USD per Euro. In 2000, it was 0.83 USD per Euro. How times change.

Corruption and sex in America:
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-carona1nov01,0,4534670.story?coll=la-home-center

[InCarmelValley]

As I go to China once a year, I should say the facts stated by fat_lazy_union_… and Arty are very true.

The changes and progresses in China, especially in the major cities are very rapidly. People there are working very hard to earn a little money. Day and night, workers keep building on new projects. In California, I see some highway projects take years to get complete. In China, same scale projects can be done in only weeks. The Chinese are catching up. Although there is still a long way for average Chinese to match the live stand of average American, most major cities’ life is already very exciting and comfortable even in the current US standard.

A few months ago, I replied on a post in this forum that I would retir to live in China. I am only in the US now to make money and raise children for their education here. I am fortunate to purchase a 1500 sf brand new condo in a major city in China for only $80K in 2005. Now the condo is worth over $200K and still appreciating. The community there is very very nice and beautiful, and quite a lot of foreigners (White, Korean, people form Hong Kong and Taiwan, etc.) live there as well. You can live there like a king with $500/month. HOA fee is only $50/month, cable TV (many channels) is only $2/month. No property tax no far (may have in the future). A maid is only $1.5/hour to do all the cleaning and cooking. A full buffet plus foot massage is only $8. Lots of exciting things to do there as well.

…

[InCarmelValley]

As I go to China once a year, I should say the facts stated by fat_lazy_union_… and Arty are very true.

The changes and progresses in China, especially in the major cities are very rapidly. People there are working very hard to earn a little money. Day and night, workers keep building on new projects. In California, I see some highway projects take years to get complete. In China, same scale projects can be done in only weeks. The Chinese are catching up. Although there is still a long way for average Chinese to match the live stand of average American, most major cities’ life is already very exciting and comfortable even in the current US standard.

A few months ago, I replied on a post in this forum that I would retir to live in China. I am only in the US now to make money and raise children for their education here. I am fortunate to purchase a 1500 sf brand new condo in a major city in China for only $80K in 2005. Now the condo is worth over $200K and still appreciating. The community there is very very nice and beautiful, and quite a lot of foreigners (White, Korean, people form Hong Kong and Taiwan, etc.) live there as well. You can live there like a king with $500/month. HOA fee is only $50/month, cable TV (many channels) is only $2/month. No property tax no far (may have in the future). A maid is only $1.5/hour to do all the cleaning and cooking. A full buffet plus foot massage is only $8. Lots of exciting things to do there as well.

…

[InCarmelValley]

As I go to China once a year, I should say the facts stated by fat_lazy_union_… and Arty are very true.

The changes and progresses in China, especially in the major cities are very rapidly. People there are working very hard to earn a little money. Day and night, workers keep building on new projects. In California, I see some highway projects take years to get complete. In China, same scale projects can be done in only weeks. The Chinese are catching up. Although there is still a long way for average Chinese to match the live stand of average American, most major cities’ life is already very exciting and comfortable even in the current US standard.

A few months ago, I replied on a post in this forum that I would retir to live in China. I am only in the US now to make money and raise children for their education here. I am fortunate to purchase a 1500 sf brand new condo in a major city in China for only $80K in 2005. Now the condo is worth over $200K and still appreciating. The community there is very very nice and beautiful, and quite a lot of foreigners (White, Korean, people form Hong Kong and Taiwan, etc.) live there as well. You can live there like a king with $500/month. HOA fee is only $50/month, cable TV (many channels) is only $2/month. No property tax no far (may have in the future). A maid is only $1.5/hour to do all the cleaning and cooking. A full buffet plus foot massage is only $8. Lots of exciting things to do there as well.

…

[bsrsharma]

Corruption and sex in America:

Wow! That Carona guy sounded so good & normal in the recent interviews on wildfires!

You want some real R rated stuff? See http://www.laweekly.com/news/features/the-town-the-law-forgot/15731/

The first sign of trouble for Cudahy City Council candidate Tony Mendoza was a pair of thong panties mailed to his wife, with a note telling her to watch her husband’s back. Then came the phone calls — and the death threats…….

This is South Gate http://www.amconmag.com/05_19_03/feature.html

 

 

 

 

 

[blackbox]

hey Dukehorn,

you got it spot on!
China is a repressive government run by a corrupt mob that puts out a nice dinner table for visitors!.

Hey, As an American, you feel poor?
you sound like an ungrateful, spoiled, and entitled idiot, who can’t see that he had the greatest luck in he’s live to be born or become an American!

See, what happens when you watch too much TV, you start believing all the rich looking fantasy “Movie Studio props” are real for all the Chinese. Ask a non-elite, non-party member Chinese how he feels to be a Chinese and living in China rather then the USA, and do him a favor, ask him where he is not afraid to answer honestly because he’ll be thrown in jail for a long term re-education on how great he should feel to be part of this great wealth the party is building for all it’s people!

wow, the ignorance………..

[kev374]

FYI, the Fidelity Chinese fund has a YTD return of 67%, expect more growth in the emerging markets as they attract more capital and also creating self sustaining demand for their products.

One observation, tommorow if we removed access to credit cards and home equity loans most Americans would not be able to make ends meet!!!

[kev374]

FYI, the Fidelity Chinese fund has a YTD return of 67%, expect more growth in the emerging markets as they attract more capital and also creating self sustaining demand for their products.

One observation, tommorow if we removed access to credit cards and home equity loans most Americans would not be able to make ends meet!!!

[kev374]

FYI, the Fidelity Chinese fund has a YTD return of 67%, expect more growth in the emerging markets as they attract more capital and also creating self sustaining demand for their products.

One observation, tommorow if we removed access to credit cards and home equity loans most Americans would not be able to make ends meet!!!

[Coronita]

you got it spot on!
China is a repressive government run by a corrupt mob that puts out a nice dinner table for visitors!.

Hey, As an American, you feel poor?
you sound like an ungrateful, spoiled, and entitled idiot, who can't see that he had the greatest luck in he's live to be born or become an American!

See, what happens when you watch too much TV, you start believing all the rich looking fantasy "Movie Studio props" are real for all the Chinese. Ask a non-elite, non-party member Chinese how he feels to be a Chinese and living in China rather then the USA, and do him a favor, ask him where he is not afraid to answer honestly because he'll be thrown in jail for a long term re-education on how great he should feel to be part of this great wealth the party is building for all it's people!

 

 

blackbox,

. First off, you probably should read the name handle more carefully to figure out who to address. Second, why do folks like you take offense so easily when someone mentions that certain aspects of a life outside of the U.S. is possibly be better.

You pretty much missed my point. I wasn't saying China was better than U.S. I saying that the quality of living was improving, average chinese folks are growing in wealth, which was apparent from the commerce that was going on in the locally. You probably haven't set foot in foreign countries and sound like you're living in denial that everything is perfect here.

I'm pretty greatful about this country. In fact, I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. But at the same time, anyone would be a fool to deny there is plenty of overseas opportunities. If you want to continue to wallow in self pity and denial that everything is fine and stick to your own ignorance, that's really up to you.

 

See, what happens when you watch too much TV, you start believing all the rich looking fantasy "Movie Studio props" are real for all the Chinese.

 I said I visited the country….Based on what you talk about "non-party people", etc… Seems like you learned all about this from TV yourself. Ignorance is bliss. Good for you.

I can tell you as a chinese born american,I see pros and cons of living in US. Generally, here i have the freedom to criticize. But I do feel a stigma of discrimnation both in school and in corporate america. I'll be happy to elaborate on that. But frankly, I'm not going to play the "race" card and scream racism/discrimination. And relatively speaking, I have a pretty cushy life here. At the same time, my ability to do business in China will be limited, as I really am not considered chinese by locale people there either. In fact, being caucasian and showing interesting in business, you stand a greater chance than being american born chinese that can't read/write chinese.

Anyway, you really should take the blinders off, and look what's going around in the world. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else, but other parts of the world are definitely moving faster at this moment in time.

 

[KIBU]

CIA World Facts:

China’s PPP = $7,800 (2006 est.)

US’s PPP =$43,800 (2006 est.)

Not even close.

If you choose to look at the cities in China and delude yourselve about a China grandeur comming soon, I would say not that easy.

[KIBU]

CIA World Facts:

China’s PPP = $7,800 (2006 est.)

US’s PPP =$43,800 (2006 est.)

Not even close.

If you choose to look at the cities in China and delude yourselve about a China grandeur comming soon, I would say not that easy.

[KIBU]

CIA World Facts:

China’s PPP = $7,800 (2006 est.)

US’s PPP =$43,800 (2006 est.)

Not even close.

If you choose to look at the cities in China and delude yourselve about a China grandeur comming soon, I would say not that easy.

[Coronita]

you got it spot on!
China is a repressive government run by a corrupt mob that puts out a nice dinner table for visitors!.

Hey, As an American, you feel poor?
you sound like an ungrateful, spoiled, and entitled idiot, who can't see that he had the greatest luck in he's live to be born or become an American!

See, what happens when you watch too much TV, you start believing all the rich looking fantasy "Movie Studio props" are real for all the Chinese. Ask a non-elite, non-party member Chinese how he feels to be a Chinese and living in China rather then the USA, and do him a favor, ask him where he is not afraid to answer honestly because he'll be thrown in jail for a long term re-education on how great he should feel to be part of this great wealth the party is building for all it's people!

 

 

blackbox,

. First off, you probably should read the name handle more carefully to figure out who to address. Second, why do folks like you take offense so easily when someone mentions that certain aspects of a life outside of the U.S. is possibly be better.

You pretty much missed my point. I wasn't saying China was better than U.S. I saying that the quality of living was improving, average chinese folks are growing in wealth, which was apparent from the commerce that was going on in the locally. You probably haven't set foot in foreign countries and sound like you're living in denial that everything is perfect here.

I'm pretty greatful about this country. In fact, I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. But at the same time, anyone would be a fool to deny there is plenty of overseas opportunities. If you want to continue to wallow in self pity and denial that everything is fine and stick to your own ignorance, that's really up to you.

 

See, what happens when you watch too much TV, you start believing all the rich looking fantasy "Movie Studio props" are real for all the Chinese.

 I said I visited the country….Based on what you talk about "non-party people", etc… Seems like you learned all about this from TV yourself. Ignorance is bliss. Good for you.

I can tell you as a chinese born american,I see pros and cons of living in US. Generally, here i have the freedom to criticize. But I do feel a stigma of discrimnation both in school and in corporate america. I'll be happy to elaborate on that. But frankly, I'm not going to play the "race" card and scream racism/discrimination. And relatively speaking, I have a pretty cushy life here. At the same time, my ability to do business in China will be limited, as I really am not considered chinese by locale people there either. In fact, being caucasian and showing interesting in business, you stand a greater chance than being american born chinese that can't read/write chinese.

Anyway, you really should take the blinders off, and look what's going around in the world. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else, but other parts of the world are definitely moving faster at this moment in time.

 

[Coronita]

you got it spot on!
China is a repressive government run by a corrupt mob that puts out a nice dinner table for visitors!.

Hey, As an American, you feel poor?
you sound like an ungrateful, spoiled, and entitled idiot, who can't see that he had the greatest luck in he's live to be born or become an American!

See, what happens when you watch too much TV, you start believing all the rich looking fantasy "Movie Studio props" are real for all the Chinese. Ask a non-elite, non-party member Chinese how he feels to be a Chinese and living in China rather then the USA, and do him a favor, ask him where he is not afraid to answer honestly because he'll be thrown in jail for a long term re-education on how great he should feel to be part of this great wealth the party is building for all it's people!

 

 

blackbox,

. First off, you probably should read the name handle more carefully to figure out who to address. Second, why do folks like you take offense so easily when someone mentions that certain aspects of a life outside of the U.S. is possibly be better.

You pretty much missed my point. I wasn't saying China was better than U.S. I saying that the quality of living was improving, average chinese folks are growing in wealth, which was apparent from the commerce that was going on in the locally. You probably haven't set foot in foreign countries and sound like you're living in denial that everything is perfect here.

I'm pretty greatful about this country. In fact, I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. But at the same time, anyone would be a fool to deny there is plenty of overseas opportunities. If you want to continue to wallow in self pity and denial that everything is fine and stick to your own ignorance, that's really up to you.

 

See, what happens when you watch too much TV, you start believing all the rich looking fantasy "Movie Studio props" are real for all the Chinese.

 I said I visited the country….Based on what you talk about "non-party people", etc… Seems like you learned all about this from TV yourself. Ignorance is bliss. Good for you.

I can tell you as a chinese born american,I see pros and cons of living in US. Generally, here i have the freedom to criticize. But I do feel a stigma of discrimnation both in school and in corporate america. I'll be happy to elaborate on that. But frankly, I'm not going to play the "race" card and scream racism/discrimination. And relatively speaking, I have a pretty cushy life here. At the same time, my ability to do business in China will be limited, as I really am not considered chinese by locale people there either. In fact, being caucasian and showing interesting in business, you stand a greater chance than being american born chinese that can't read/write chinese.

Anyway, you really should take the blinders off, and look what's going around in the world. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else, but other parts of the world are definitely moving faster at this moment in time.

 

[blackbox]

hey Dukehorn,

you got it spot on!
China is a repressive government run by a corrupt mob that puts out a nice dinner table for visitors!.

Hey, As an American, you feel poor?
you sound like an ungrateful, spoiled, and entitled idiot, who can’t see that he had the greatest luck in he’s live to be born or become an American!

See, what happens when you watch too much TV, you start believing all the rich looking fantasy “Movie Studio props” are real for all the Chinese. Ask a non-elite, non-party member Chinese how he feels to be a Chinese and living in China rather then the USA, and do him a favor, ask him where he is not afraid to answer honestly because he’ll be thrown in jail for a long term re-education on how great he should feel to be part of this great wealth the party is building for all it’s people!

wow, the ignorance………..

[blackbox]

hey Dukehorn,

you got it spot on!
China is a repressive government run by a corrupt mob that puts out a nice dinner table for visitors!.

Hey, As an American, you feel poor?
you sound like an ungrateful, spoiled, and entitled idiot, who can’t see that he had the greatest luck in he’s live to be born or become an American!

See, what happens when you watch too much TV, you start believing all the rich looking fantasy “Movie Studio props” are real for all the Chinese. Ask a non-elite, non-party member Chinese how he feels to be a Chinese and living in China rather then the USA, and do him a favor, ask him where he is not afraid to answer honestly because he’ll be thrown in jail for a long term re-education on how great he should feel to be part of this great wealth the party is building for all it’s people!

wow, the ignorance………..

[bsrsharma]

Corruption and sex in America:

Wow! That Carona guy sounded so good & normal in the recent interviews on wildfires!

You want some real R rated stuff? See http://www.laweekly.com/news/features/the-town-the-law-forgot/15731/

The first sign of trouble for Cudahy City Council candidate Tony Mendoza was a pair of thong panties mailed to his wife, with a note telling her to watch her husband’s back. Then came the phone calls — and the death threats…….

This is South Gate http://www.amconmag.com/05_19_03/feature.html

 

 

 

 

 

[bsrsharma]

Corruption and sex in America:

Wow! That Carona guy sounded so good & normal in the recent interviews on wildfires!

You want some real R rated stuff? See http://www.laweekly.com/news/features/the-town-the-law-forgot/15731/

The first sign of trouble for Cudahy City Council candidate Tony Mendoza was a pair of thong panties mailed to his wife, with a note telling her to watch her husband’s back. Then came the phone calls — and the death threats…….

This is South Gate http://www.amconmag.com/05_19_03/feature.html

 

 

 

 

 

[patientlywaiting]

Man, soon to be 1.5 USD per Euro. In 2000, it was 0.83 USD per Euro. How times change.

Corruption and sex in America:
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-carona1nov01,0,4534670.story?coll=la-home-center

[patientlywaiting]

Man, soon to be 1.5 USD per Euro. In 2000, it was 0.83 USD per Euro. How times change.

Corruption and sex in America:
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-carona1nov01,0,4534670.story?coll=la-home-center

[JWM in SD]

“…As an American, i feel poor.”

And you will feel poorer still thanks to Benny this afternoon. I haven’t been to China since ’99 so a lot has changed since then. IT was like being on another planet back then.

[JWM in SD]

“…As an American, i feel poor.”

And you will feel poorer still thanks to Benny this afternoon. I haven’t been to China since ’99 so a lot has changed since then. IT was like being on another planet back then.

[SHILOH]

I wonder when the surge in urban wealth occurred and where did all the money come from….

also – taxes provide significant $ to expand an economic infrastructure beyond urban centers —

my question would be what % of the population is *enjoying*
the wealth – and what % is the rural poor and specifically –
do the poor have access to contemporary education.

[patientlywaiting]

Comparing per capita purchasing power is not useful. The sheer population of China makes it possible that China eventually surpasses America in every way (number of consumers, engineers, doctors, scientists, etc..)

There are two countries within China — the rural poor that earn $100/month and the urban rich with purchasing power that rivals America. The urban class is swelling to match the population of the US.

Look at Macao. It has surpassed Las Vegas in revenue in the last 5 years with all the major American casinos represented there. That’s testament to the Chinese’s purchasing power.

[KIBU]

If “sheer population” is the case, we would see the rich and most advanced countries being most populous. The reverse is often true.

Population is an advantage but it has shown to be a much less important factor in associating with more advanced or civilized societies. The sheer number of “engineeer”, “doctor”….etc doesn’t mean that:

1. The level of qualification is competitive (you can read more here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/19/AR2006051901760.html

2. The educated are provided an environment where they can thrive to the max of their ability.

3. etc….

Don’t get me wrong, I am asian, so I don’t do asia bashing. But I think the reality is that China still has a huge gap to fill. The possibility of not being able to catch up is huge.

Lastly, I would not be proud of anything that has to do with Macau. If you go to Las Vegas or other California Casinos, you see too many asians. They worked their butts off and donate money to the casinos…..That, I would say F’ck, the asians are the most stupid.

[patientlywaiting]

So China has the first trillion dollar company.

http://money.cnn.com/2007/11/05/news/international/bc.as.fin.china.petrochina.ap/index.htm

China starting to have the biggest of everything (dam, building, university, etc..), just like America did a century ago.

We need to worry when China gets to become the biggest consumer market. We are still some ways from that but it’s not a question of if but when.

They already have the biggest cell phone market and soon to have the biggest computer market. Eventually, we’ll have to follow their standards.

Remember San Diego’s Gateway Computers? It’s now Acer of Taiwan/China.

[bsrsharma]

Remember San Diego's Gateway Computers? It's now Acer of Taiwan/China.

IBM PC is now Lenovo

Huawei is buying 3Com

Cisco is increasing its footprint in China

Intel is opening fab in China

…..

I am predicting at least one of the big 3 Autos will end up Chinese.

[bsrsharma]

Remember San Diego's Gateway Computers? It's now Acer of Taiwan/China.

IBM PC is now Lenovo

Huawei is buying 3Com

Cisco is increasing its footprint in China

Intel is opening fab in China

…..

I am predicting at least one of the big 3 Autos will end up Chinese.

[bsrsharma]

Remember San Diego's Gateway Computers? It's now Acer of Taiwan/China.

IBM PC is now Lenovo

Huawei is buying 3Com

Cisco is increasing its footprint in China

Intel is opening fab in China

…..

I am predicting at least one of the big 3 Autos will end up Chinese.

[bsrsharma]

Remember San Diego's Gateway Computers? It's now Acer of Taiwan/China.

IBM PC is now Lenovo

Huawei is buying 3Com

Cisco is increasing its footprint in China

Intel is opening fab in China

…..

I am predicting at least one of the big 3 Autos will end up Chinese.

[kewp]

We need to worry when China gets to become the biggest consumer market. We are still some ways from that but it’s not a question of if but when.

As long as they keep consuming US higher education products, its all good to me.

However, I don’t see them setting standards anytime soon. Given that intellectual property has no value in China I can’t see the incentive, from a free market standpoint, to innovate in that area. There is a very good reason that all the best tech comes from the West.

Anyways, from a quality-of-life perspective, the average American enjoys a much richer experience than the average Asian. But we both trail the Europeans by a significant margin.

[mrwrong]

Comparing today’s China to today’s US is not going to be very meaningful and trying to defend the obvious fact US is better than China only demonstrates US insecurity.

What’s more meaningful is comparing today’s China against itself 20/30 years ago. I think there is no doubt that tremendous progress has been made since the 1970’s, at least based on the Western standards for progress.

Mr. Wrong

[kewp]

Comparing today’s China to today’s US is not going to be very meaningful and trying to defend the obvious fact US is better than China only demonstrates US insecurity.

No insecurity here, man.

The trend is that innovation happens in American/Japan/Europe and the manufacturing is done in China.
Ultimately for the consumer, both are important. If the iPhone cost $1,000 due to being manufactured by union workers in Idaho it wouldn’t have been nearly as popular.

Yes, China has made tremendous progress. But so has America/Europe. They were farther behind so it just looks more significant from over here.

[kewp]

Comparing today’s China to today’s US is not going to be very meaningful and trying to defend the obvious fact US is better than China only demonstrates US insecurity.

No insecurity here, man.

The trend is that innovation happens in American/Japan/Europe and the manufacturing is done in China.
Ultimately for the consumer, both are important. If the iPhone cost $1,000 due to being manufactured by union workers in Idaho it wouldn’t have been nearly as popular.

Yes, China has made tremendous progress. But so has America/Europe. They were farther behind so it just looks more significant from over here.

[kewp]

Comparing today’s China to today’s US is not going to be very meaningful and trying to defend the obvious fact US is better than China only demonstrates US insecurity.

No insecurity here, man.

The trend is that innovation happens in American/Japan/Europe and the manufacturing is done in China.
Ultimately for the consumer, both are important. If the iPhone cost $1,000 due to being manufactured by union workers in Idaho it wouldn’t have been nearly as popular.

Yes, China has made tremendous progress. But so has America/Europe. They were farther behind so it just looks more significant from over here.

[kewp]

Comparing today’s China to today’s US is not going to be very meaningful and trying to defend the obvious fact US is better than China only demonstrates US insecurity.

No insecurity here, man.

The trend is that innovation happens in American/Japan/Europe and the manufacturing is done in China.
Ultimately for the consumer, both are important. If the iPhone cost $1,000 due to being manufactured by union workers in Idaho it wouldn’t have been nearly as popular.

Yes, China has made tremendous progress. But so has America/Europe. They were farther behind so it just looks more significant from over here.

[mrwrong]

Comparing today’s China to today’s US is not going to be very meaningful and trying to defend the obvious fact US is better than China only demonstrates US insecurity.

What’s more meaningful is comparing today’s China against itself 20/30 years ago. I think there is no doubt that tremendous progress has been made since the 1970’s, at least based on the Western standards for progress.

Mr. Wrong

[mrwrong]

Comparing today’s China to today’s US is not going to be very meaningful and trying to defend the obvious fact US is better than China only demonstrates US insecurity.

What’s more meaningful is comparing today’s China against itself 20/30 years ago. I think there is no doubt that tremendous progress has been made since the 1970’s, at least based on the Western standards for progress.

Mr. Wrong

[mrwrong]

Comparing today’s China to today’s US is not going to be very meaningful and trying to defend the obvious fact US is better than China only demonstrates US insecurity.

What’s more meaningful is comparing today’s China against itself 20/30 years ago. I think there is no doubt that tremendous progress has been made since the 1970’s, at least based on the Western standards for progress.

Mr. Wrong

[kewp]

We need to worry when China gets to become the biggest consumer market. We are still some ways from that but it’s not a question of if but when.

As long as they keep consuming US higher education products, its all good to me.

However, I don’t see them setting standards anytime soon. Given that intellectual property has no value in China I can’t see the incentive, from a free market standpoint, to innovate in that area. There is a very good reason that all the best tech comes from the West.

Anyways, from a quality-of-life perspective, the average American enjoys a much richer experience than the average Asian. But we both trail the Europeans by a significant margin.

[kewp]

We need to worry when China gets to become the biggest consumer market. We are still some ways from that but it’s not a question of if but when.

As long as they keep consuming US higher education products, its all good to me.

However, I don’t see them setting standards anytime soon. Given that intellectual property has no value in China I can’t see the incentive, from a free market standpoint, to innovate in that area. There is a very good reason that all the best tech comes from the West.

Anyways, from a quality-of-life perspective, the average American enjoys a much richer experience than the average Asian. But we both trail the Europeans by a significant margin.

[kewp]

We need to worry when China gets to become the biggest consumer market. We are still some ways from that but it’s not a question of if but when.

As long as they keep consuming US higher education products, its all good to me.

However, I don’t see them setting standards anytime soon. Given that intellectual property has no value in China I can’t see the incentive, from a free market standpoint, to innovate in that area. There is a very good reason that all the best tech comes from the West.

Anyways, from a quality-of-life perspective, the average American enjoys a much richer experience than the average Asian. But we both trail the Europeans by a significant margin.

[patientlywaiting]

So China has the first trillion dollar company.

http://money.cnn.com/2007/11/05/news/international/bc.as.fin.china.petrochina.ap/index.htm

China starting to have the biggest of everything (dam, building, university, etc..), just like America did a century ago.

We need to worry when China gets to become the biggest consumer market. We are still some ways from that but it’s not a question of if but when.

They already have the biggest cell phone market and soon to have the biggest computer market. Eventually, we’ll have to follow their standards.

Remember San Diego’s Gateway Computers? It’s now Acer of Taiwan/China.

[patientlywaiting]

So China has the first trillion dollar company.

http://money.cnn.com/2007/11/05/news/international/bc.as.fin.china.petrochina.ap/index.htm

China starting to have the biggest of everything (dam, building, university, etc..), just like America did a century ago.

We need to worry when China gets to become the biggest consumer market. We are still some ways from that but it’s not a question of if but when.

They already have the biggest cell phone market and soon to have the biggest computer market. Eventually, we’ll have to follow their standards.

Remember San Diego’s Gateway Computers? It’s now Acer of Taiwan/China.

[patientlywaiting]

So China has the first trillion dollar company.

http://money.cnn.com/2007/11/05/news/international/bc.as.fin.china.petrochina.ap/index.htm

China starting to have the biggest of everything (dam, building, university, etc..), just like America did a century ago.

We need to worry when China gets to become the biggest consumer market. We are still some ways from that but it’s not a question of if but when.

They already have the biggest cell phone market and soon to have the biggest computer market. Eventually, we’ll have to follow their standards.

Remember San Diego’s Gateway Computers? It’s now Acer of Taiwan/China.

[KIBU]

If “sheer population” is the case, we would see the rich and most advanced countries being most populous. The reverse is often true.

Population is an advantage but it has shown to be a much less important factor in associating with more advanced or civilized societies. The sheer number of “engineeer”, “doctor”….etc doesn’t mean that:

1. The level of qualification is competitive (you can read more here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/19/AR2006051901760.html

2. The educated are provided an environment where they can thrive to the max of their ability.

3. etc….

Don’t get me wrong, I am asian, so I don’t do asia bashing. But I think the reality is that China still has a huge gap to fill. The possibility of not being able to catch up is huge.

Lastly, I would not be proud of anything that has to do with Macau. If you go to Las Vegas or other California Casinos, you see too many asians. They worked their butts off and donate money to the casinos…..That, I would say F’ck, the asians are the most stupid.

[KIBU]

If “sheer population” is the case, we would see the rich and most advanced countries being most populous. The reverse is often true.

Population is an advantage but it has shown to be a much less important factor in associating with more advanced or civilized societies. The sheer number of “engineeer”, “doctor”….etc doesn’t mean that:

1. The level of qualification is competitive (you can read more here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/19/AR2006051901760.html

2. The educated are provided an environment where they can thrive to the max of their ability.

3. etc….

Don’t get me wrong, I am asian, so I don’t do asia bashing. But I think the reality is that China still has a huge gap to fill. The possibility of not being able to catch up is huge.

Lastly, I would not be proud of anything that has to do with Macau. If you go to Las Vegas or other California Casinos, you see too many asians. They worked their butts off and donate money to the casinos…..That, I would say F’ck, the asians are the most stupid.

[patientlywaiting]

Comparing per capita purchasing power is not useful. The sheer population of China makes it possible that China eventually surpasses America in every way (number of consumers, engineers, doctors, scientists, etc..)

There are two countries within China — the rural poor that earn $100/month and the urban rich with purchasing power that rivals America. The urban class is swelling to match the population of the US.

Look at Macao. It has surpassed Las Vegas in revenue in the last 5 years with all the major American casinos represented there. That’s testament to the Chinese’s purchasing power.

[patientlywaiting]

Comparing per capita purchasing power is not useful. The sheer population of China makes it possible that China eventually surpasses America in every way (number of consumers, engineers, doctors, scientists, etc..)

There are two countries within China — the rural poor that earn $100/month and the urban rich with purchasing power that rivals America. The urban class is swelling to match the population of the US.

Look at Macao. It has surpassed Las Vegas in revenue in the last 5 years with all the major American casinos represented there. That’s testament to the Chinese’s purchasing power.

[SHILOH]

I wonder when the surge in urban wealth occurred and where did all the money come from….

also – taxes provide significant $ to expand an economic infrastructure beyond urban centers —

my question would be what % of the population is *enjoying*
the wealth – and what % is the rural poor and specifically –
do the poor have access to contemporary education.

[SHILOH]

I wonder when the surge in urban wealth occurred and where did all the money come from….

also – taxes provide significant $ to expand an economic infrastructure beyond urban centers —

my question would be what % of the population is *enjoying*
the wealth – and what % is the rural poor and specifically –
do the poor have access to contemporary education.

[Author]

Posts