Awesome front page LA Times article on the severe state pension issues

[ctr70]

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-pensions-20120830,0,1423273.story

First of all, I don’t think this is beating a dead horse, IMO we can’t post enough on this forum about public pensions. One of the reasons something is finally being done (Wisconsin, San Diego, San Jose, Stockton) is because this issue is finally getting exposed to the taxpayers who weren’t aware of it for years, and they are realizing how these defined benefit pensions are bankrupting our communities just to pay a few retirees big fat guaranteed life pensions.

And this is from a left leaning newspaper. Some highlights:

1. Officials at California’s retirement systems, which are counting on investment returns that many experts say are wildly optimistic, acknowledge that **workers have been guaranteed about $164 billion more in retirement payouts than there will be cash available to pay**. Some others like Warren Buffett and John Bogle think it’s more like a $270 billion gap.

2. “You can’t address these problems unless you address the existing liability,” said David Crane, who advised former Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger on pension issues. “The only way to do that is to go after benefits for existing employees.”

3. The promised benefits are unaffordable and leave taxpayers facing all the risk as the bill becomes due.

4. A federal judge recently sided with the city of Stockton to reduce existing retirees benefits in BK court. Brown said at a news conference this week that he is watching those cases closely and, if the cities prevail, would consider proposing changes for current employees. (I like this progress!)

6. “Pension law is not static,” the governor said. “There will be cases coming out of San Jose, San Diego and Stockton that may reshape pension law over the next several years, and if so, that will open new avenues for future changes.”

[bearishgurl]

If “existing retirees” and those “deferred retirees who are soon to retire,” such as myself, are affected by any “pension overhaul” pending the outcome of these cases, I predict the cities/counties will first go after those members who took advantage of “enhanced benefits” while still working in 2002 or later. The formula for “enhanced benefits” results in a pension for an employee of the same classification and years of service of an earlier “retired” employee of about 2.25 to 2.75 times the earlier “retired” employee’s pension. HOWEVER, the “enhanced benefited” employee does NOT have a guaranteed healthcare allowance (+/- $300 mo). That will be the “low-hanging fruit” that goes away first, unless their pension is adjusted downwards. If it is, the Ret Assns will have to refund all their extra employee payroll contributions into the “enhanced system” to their respective employee-contributors in a lump sum (which employees in my category did not have to make).

These refunds will still be cheaper for the Assn (and severely limit any future gov’t backstops, if needed) and so will be preferable to the masses retiring under the “enhanced” systems.

I haven’t read the article in the OP yet, but I really believe it’s a HUGE uphill battle for these city/county/state govm’ts to win the right to decimate the retirement system formulas currently in place … yes, even in BK court.

Interesting times we’re currently living thru …

[Arraya]

It’s a global phenomena!

http://theautomaticearth.com/Finance/the-global-demise-of-pension-plans.html
The Global Demise of Pension Plans

[paramount]

California public/govt employee unions make the Chicago union political machine look like childs play.

And this week we had phony pension reform proudly announced by Gov. Jerry “Moonbeam” Brown.

As a HJ rep stated, the only way real pension reform happens is through a change to the state constitution. And reform is not the answer, pensions need to disappear for govt workers.

I heard a stat today: If you work in the private sector in California and live in California, you will pay more than $23,000 over the next 2 decades for some damn gov’t worker to retire in a way you in the private sector can only dream of – and that’s just for gov’t worker retirement benefits alone!

The best thing to do is to get out California, the pension liabilities are already bankrupting cities in California.

California’s gov’t employee unions have absolutely DESTROYED California. No question about it.

[paramount]

And remember, whatever you do:

NO ON PROP 30!!!!

[The-Shoveler]

When Moon-Beam Brown is being compared to Hoover, you know you have a problem,

Heck I think the City of L.A. alone current pension defect is over 25 Billion

[Jazzman]

Deflate everything back to zero, start printing money like crazy and tell everyone to lop off a zero on dollar bills each year.

[ctr70]

“Pension law is not static,” the governor said. “There will be cases coming out of San Jose, San Diego and Stockton that may reshape pension law over the next several years, and if so, that will open new avenues for future changes.”

—->This quote gives me hope with Brown. The fact that he says pension law is “not static” and there is even a chance they could reform existing employees pensions (vs. just reforming new & future employees pensions) means some hope of progress.

[EconProf]

On a more local level, candidate for San Diego Mayor Carl DeMaio has built his whole campaign on pension reform. He is opposed by congressman Bob Filner, who’s record suggests he would do little to oppose the wishes of the public employee unions.

[CA renter]

According to flu, we are not supposed to debate these issues anymore.

If we are not “allowed” to debate, then don’t post the topics in the first place.

If these topics and attacks keep getting posted, expect the debates to continue.

Flu, are you going to PM everyone and tell these posters to STFU, or what?

Flu’s rules for topics on Piggington:

http://piggington.com/good_romney_la_times_article_today?page=1

[CDMA ENG]

[quote=CA renter]According to flu, we are not supposed to debate these issues anymore.

If we are not “allowed” to debate, then don’t post the topics in the first place.

If these topics and attacks keep getting posted, expect the debates to continue.

Flu, are you going to PM everyone and tell these posters to STFU, or what?

Flu’s rules for topics on Piggington:

http://piggington.com/good_romney_la_times_article_today?page=1%5B/quote%5D

Debate? What fucking debate? Shall I just make a list of all those opposed and all those for. We go round robin on this and get no where. I do not think there is a single person who has changed their minds on the subject so before we start hating each other even more let’s move on to something like pool furniture and what to do with it after labor day…

CE

[CA renter]

[quote=CDMA ENG][quote=CA renter]According to flu, we are not supposed to debate these issues anymore.

If we are not “allowed” to debate, then don’t post the topics in the first place.

If these topics and attacks keep getting posted, expect the debates to continue.

Flu, are you going to PM everyone and tell these posters to STFU, or what?

Flu’s rules for topics on Piggington:

http://piggington.com/good_romney_la_times_article_today?page=1%5B/quote%5D

Debate? What fucking debate? Shall I just make a list of all those opposed and all those for. We go round robin on this and get no where. I do not think there is a single person who has changed their minds on the subject so before we start hating each other even more let’s move on to something like pool furniture and what to do with it after labor day…

CE[/quote]

Not sure about you, but I don’t feel compelled to “hate” anyone just because they have a different opinion about a particular topic.

Maybe this is why we keep going “round robin” on this. Some posters are debating topics based on facts and logic, while others base their opinions on emotions.

You can’t debate if you don’t have a good grasp of the topic, and I’ve seen far too many people who have spewed complete bullshit about this topic, without any regard for fact-checking or getting the very basics down before going on emotional, envy-based, vitriolic rants. Before posting about a topic, one should do some actual research into why these pensions exist, what was given up in order to get them, how they are supposed to work, why they are not working now, what the LEGAL and ETHICAL solutions might be, who is behind the attacks on the pension system (and unions, in general), and WHY.

Those who are “opposed” to unions and pensions are usually the ones who have never worked in the public sector, never been a part of union negotiations (especially in the public sector), have no idea how these negotiations work (like claiming that the unions and the public employers are “on the same side of the table”), don’t understand why these employers use pensions as part of the employees’ compensation, and don’t even understand the very basic facts regarding how they are paid and who pays for them. I can show you thread after thread where these idiots have had their asses handed to them by those of us who actually understand the subject and can back up our arguments with FACTS.

Again, if people want to avoid these discussions, stop starting these threads and stop making ignorant remarks about pensions and public unions. Until then, expect to be taken to task by those of us who know WTF we are talking about.

[CA renter]

The war against workers has existed all throughout human history. In order for the relatively small number of people in power to remain there in relative safety (and wealth!), they have to pit worker against worker. You are a pawn in this war. For anyone who wants to debate privatization, unionization, pensions, tax and trade policies, etc., you had better be VERY informed about what is driving the rhetoric. It will affect YOU, and not in a good way.

Here’s a start:

“No national accounting
Because of the unregulated, local nature of charters, reporting to national studies is largely voluntary. The amount of central analysis is limited to that performed by universities or other nongovernmental bodies. “There’s an awful lot of diversity in these companies [EMOs],” points out Henry Levin, a professor of education at Columbia University. “And most of them are proprietary, so we really don’t know how they’re operating,” he concluded in a ProPublica investigative article.[4]

Western Michigan University has sponsored studies based on self-reporting. A 2010 report, “Equal or Fair? A Study of Revenues and Expenditures in American Charter Schools,” shows charters top heavy with administration at the expense of instruction.[5]

According to this study, charter schools spend 54.8 percent of their operating budgets on instruction compared with 60.3 percent at traditional public schools. For-profit schools spend even less on instruction. In Michigan, the average drops to 44.8 percent. A random search online, for example, brings up Crescent Academy in Southfield, Michigan, which leases all of its employees and spends only 42.67 percent on instruction.

National statistics in “Equal or Fair?” show student support services are even more unbalanced—at $858 per year for public schools and an average of $517 for charters, with for-profits even lower at $366 less per pupil than nonprofit charters. On the other end of the scale, the charters are spending considerably more on administration than their public school rivals.”

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/jul2011/char-j11.shtml
——————-

“The first national charter school study was conducted in 2009 by CREDO at Stanford, and the co-funders of the study (the Walton Foundation and Pearson) were not enamored by the results. So bad were they for charter school fans that the study, though given skimpy coverage by the LA Times, was never reported by WaPo or the NYTimes, and received minimal coverage from one news magazine, U. S. News and World Report, which obviously did not get the memo:

June 17, 2009 12:58 PM ET | Zach Miners | Permanent Link | Print
On average, charter schools are not performing as well as their traditional public-school peers, according to a new study that is being called the first national assessment of these school-choice options. The study, conducted by the Center for Research on Education Outcomes at Stanford University, compared the reading and math state achievement test scores of students in charter schools in 15 states and the District of Columbia—amounting to 70 percent of U.S. charter school students—to those of their virtual “twins” in regular schools who shared with them certain characteristics. The research found that 37 percent of charter schools posted math gains that were significantly below what students would have seen if they had enrolled in local traditional public schools. And 46 percent of charter schools posted math gains that were statistically indistinguishable from the average growth among their traditional public-school companions. That means that only 17 percent of charter schools have growth in math scores that exceeds that of their traditional public-school equivalents by a significant amount.”

https://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/11/07-3

—————–

“For people so concerned with keeping the government’s hands out of their pockets, the ALEC documents reveal that they have spent quite a lot of effort on getting their hands into yours. The Center for Media and Democracy describes ALEC’s public education efforts as an attempt to turn education into a “private commodity rather than a public good.” Charter school expansion is at the top of the agenda, and ALEC-inspired charter school bills have passed this spring in several states. Charter school chains are poised to move in. Public subsidy of charter companies like White Hat and Imagine Schools means private profit not only from state tax monies but also from complex sale-leaseback arrangements on the valuable real estate, private development subsidized at public expense or acquired through eminent domain.

The impulse among conservatives to privatize everything involving public expenditures – schools included – is no longer just about shrinking government, lowering their taxes and eliminating funding sources for their political competitors. Now it’s about their opportunity costs, potential profits lost to not-for-profit public-sector competitors. It’s bad enough that government “picks their pockets” to educate other people’s children. But it’s unforgivable that they’re not getting a piece of the action. Now they want to turn public education into private profits too.

Why are millionaires and billionaires targeting public education? For the same reason banksters pimped mortgage loans. For the same reason Wall Street wanted to privatize Social Security. For the same reason Willie Horton robbed banks.

Answer this question: What is the largest portion of the budget in all 50 states?”

Read more: http://www.bluenc.com/alec-has-theirs-now-they-want-yours#ixzz25OebaS5J

———————–

“It is a vicious cycle – with ALEC and Lumina Foundation at the center. ALEC pushes legislation and policy which imposes draconian cuts to public higher education funding. Lumina lends financial and policy support to the agenda – and positions itself to step in with a “Four Step Plan” to fill the void. Lumina offers a brilliant talking point – “follow our plan, and more people will get college degrees, which means more people will get jobs…because (as everyone knows) people with degrees get hired more than people without.”

While these are lofty goals and wonderful ideals (for education is truly the cornerstone of democracy); with Lumina, the devil is in the details. There is a clear push in this agenda to privatize and take an opportunistic approach to a continuing economic recession (or as Paul Krugman more accurately says, depression). Educational Foundations such as Lumina and the Gates Foundation are taking on a greater roll in developing policy, as opposed to direct awards – and it is having an enormous effect, again, because of the draconian cuts being endured by public colleges and universities.”

http://bdgrdemocracy.wordpress.com/2012/06/22/
——————

[paramount]

[img_assist|nid=16635|title=No on Prop 30|desc=|link=node|align=left|width=643|height=600]

[CA renter]

[quote=paramount][img_assist|nid=16635|title=No on Prop 30|desc=|link=node|align=left|width=643|height=600][/quote]

Gee, it’s always nice to see “educated” arguments like these.

[Author]

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