They sure do look under 16. They sure do look under 16. I’ve many asian teenagers and some of them look like my 12-13 year old cousins. My 14-15 year old cousins look older than some of them on that team.
Allan from Fallbrook
August 13, 2008 @
2:37 PM
Absolutely! If the US fails Absolutely! If the US fails to win a medal, it is ALWAYS because the other team cheated somehow.
Those nefarious Chinese either used underaged athletes or cosmetically altered midgets in order to secure that victory.
We should bomb them. Right after Iran, Russia and North Korea.
Failing that, we should sue.
jficquette
August 16, 2008 @
8:42 PM
asianautica wrote:They sure [quote=asianautica]They sure do look under 16. I’ve many asian teenagers and some of them look like my 12-13 year old cousins. My 14-15 year old cousins look older than some of them on that team.[/quote]
Some of them looked 10-12 years old LOL.
ocrenter
August 16, 2008 @
9:12 PM
the reason they look 10 is the reason they look 10 is because gymnastics stunt their growth. so a 14 year old would look like she’s 10. but very hard to get a 16 year old to look like she’s 10.
we’re not the only ones questioning this. people in China are questioning the same thing. here’s a xinhua webpage dated November 3rd in 2007 saved as a google doc page before the page was removed by censors on August 15.
getting more stuff as I getting more stuff as I dig… sorry for all the Chinese, I’ll try to translate.
here’s a speech by President Liu of China’s Sports Association in November of ’07:
劉鵬局長在組委會第四次會議上的講話
時間︰2007-11-03
在第六屆全國城市運動會組委會第四次會議
6th annual countrywide all city sports meet planning committee fourth meeting
暨各代表團團長會議上的講話
劉 鵬
2007年11月3日，武漢 (Wuhan)
各位委員、同志們︰
fellow association members, comrades:
經過10天緊張激烈的角逐，第六屆全國城市運動會今天就要閉幕了
after 10 days of fierce and exciting competition, the 6th countrywide all city sports meet will come to an end today…
followed by bunch of crap about the Chinese Communist Party… how the olympic is the biggest event for all ethic Chinese in a hundred years… … that the Central Government has been paying special attention to the ongoings of these sports meet…
several areas have been improved upon during the sports meet:
(一)進行廣泛的思想發動
1. general unified thought and understanding
(二)層層落實責任
2. responsibility at all levels
(三)認真分析形勢，及時完善措施
3. understand and analyze and provide comprehensive strategy
quite a bit more of this strategy talk…
比賽中，創造了一批好成績。共有1人1次超1項世界紀錄；2人2次平1項世界紀錄；1人2次超2項世界青年紀錄； 4人4次創4項全國紀錄； 5人2隊9次創8項全國青年紀錄
during the competition, we had some excellent results. one person exceeded a world record, 2 people matched world records, one person passed 2 junior world records, 4 people set countrywide records…
13歲的體操高低杠選手何可欣出色地完成了“李婭空翻”的全套動作，戰勝了剛剛獲得世錦賽季軍的國手楊伊琳，顯示出了較高水平
13 year old gymnast He Kexin performed a special parallel bar routine, winning against fellow gymnast Yang…
so as you can see, the top sports guy in China knew He Kexin was only 13 in 2007. The Central Government also knew. and suddenly He Kexin has a passport showing that she’s 16 in 2008.
so the Huffingtonpost doesn’t matter, so we go beyond the Huffingtonpost and bring you the real stuff straight from Comrade Liu. Does that not matter too?
Coronita
August 13, 2008 @
2:35 PM
AA. Yeah, but my question is, AA. Yeah, but my question is, how many asian women do you know that are look close to early twenties but are indeed closer to mid thirties? Can you really tell?
It just seems like CNN/SI like to plaster this on headline news.
What next, Michael Phelps accused of steroid use because he’s winning too much?
an
August 13, 2008 @
4:06 PM
Asian female looks a lot of Asian female looks a lot of younger than their age when compare to other races. However, when you compare against other Asians or even comparing them directly to Chinese, you have a pretty reliable yard stick. Some of them look as young as my 10-12 year old CHINESE cousins.
[quote=nostradamus]What can a 13-year-old do that a 16-year-old can’t?[/quote]
If you noticed, girls start hitting puberty and their growth spurt around 13 years old. So a 13 year old girl will probably be much smaller than a 16 year old. There are things you can do better when you are smaller.
I would say the American lost because one of their gymnast failed under pressure with the beam and floor event. However, the media will always try to make a story as big as they can. Sometimes, out of nothing at all.
DWCAP
August 13, 2008 @
3:05 PM
I kinda think any time you I kinda think any time you disregard the rules, for the purpose of winning, you are cheating. Even if the rule is dumb. The best person should be able to go, regardless of age, race, sexual orientation, etc. If the rule is 16, then everyone should be 16. There may be some very deserving 15 year old Americans who could have helped win Gold but didnt get to go.
Coronita
August 13, 2008 @
3:19 PM
DWCAP, I think I would agree DWCAP, I think I would agree with that. Except, especially in our culture and judicial system is based on a burden of proof “beyond the shadow of doubt”. As such, I’m surprised how quickly the media is focusing/accusing of suspected cheating.
nostradamus
August 13, 2008 @
3:37 PM
What can a 13-year-old do What can a 13-year-old do that a 16-year-old can’t?
Eugene
August 13, 2008 @
3:50 PM
United States have two United States have two 15-year old girls on the diving team. Why should it be wrong for China to have 15-year old gymnasts?
desmond
August 13, 2008 @
4:14 PM
All I know is we bought a lot All I know is we bought a lot of junk from China and they turned it into spectacular venues. $200 million for the “Cube” and every race is a new World Record. Opening night was jaw dropping. Can’t wait for track to start.
NicMM
August 13, 2008 @
4:44 PM
I heard many Chinese athletes I heard many Chinese athletes were from poor rural area. I think they didn’t receive the same diet nutrition as Americans. lol
I have to tell you when I traveled in Japan, I found many men in their 30s looked like teenagers.
sfexporter
August 13, 2008 @
6:07 PM
Does underaged girls enhance Does underaged girls enhance the performance? What is the beef here? This goes to show that they are dominating in the olympic by just having young athletes. Wait until the next olympic, by then these older athletes are much better and well prepared. Freakin CNN is Bunch of losers having nothing to do but complain.
paranoid
August 13, 2008 @
6:16 PM
Britain has a 14-year old Britain has a 14-year old diver.
an
August 13, 2008 @
7:09 PM
sfexporter wrote:Does [quote=sfexporter]Does underaged girls enhance the performance? What is the beef here? This goes to show that they are dominating in the olympic by just having young athletes. Wait until the next olympic, by then these older athletes are much better and well prepared. Freakin CNN is Bunch of losers having nothing to do but complain. [/quote]
According to the US coach’s husband, it does make a positive difference. Maybe that’s why you don’t see too many 20+ year old gymnast competing.
NotCranky
August 13, 2008 @
8:07 PM
Maybe the spirit of the rule Maybe the spirit of the rule is to protect children from massive pressure or exploitation. The Olympics other than gymnastics does seem like an adult maturity level event. I think in girls gymnastic puberty can take out a lot of girls.Evidently, hips, breasts and weight in general make the sport more difficult. Maybe there are other factors, like accumulated injuries and flexibility issues?
DWCAP
August 13, 2008 @
8:38 PM
I really dont understand what I really dont understand what diving has to do with gymnasicics. If the rule is 16 in one sport, who cares if that doesnt apply to another sport? Look, the rule is dumb. The best in the world should go, not the best at a certain age. Why not limit the whole olympics to those over 18 or 21 if we want to protect kids?
But if a rule exists, and you ignor it in order to win, you are cheating. Too bad the IOC is a bunch of lame, impotent, eunuch’s with no ability to stand up for anything.
no_such_reality
August 13, 2008 @
8:53 PM
The sport is called Women’s The sport is called Women’s Artistic Gymnastics.
Twelve year olds aren’t women.
And yes, for gymnastics, pre-puberty bodies are smaller, lighter and have a better muscle strength to weight ratio, all of which makes the technical moves easier.
When the Olympic committee decided on 16 years of age as a minimum, they were debating doing 18. The reason was the push for younger and younger girls to be competing.
paranoid
August 13, 2008 @
11:44 PM
According to US law, a person According to US law, a person is innocent unless proved guilty.
Now the americans accuse the chinese but without any prove.
Using these accusers’ logic, Phelps must be doped, otherwise how can he get so many golds? Phelps Will be the next Marion Jones.
Remind you that the US is the most advanced country in the world in technologies including bio-tech and pharmaceutics. The americans can easily make doping drugs non-detectible with current detection equipments.
What do you feel now? Do you now understand how the chinese feel with CNN blind accusations?
orthofrancis
August 14, 2008 @
12:56 AM
One girl looked like 8 years One girl looked like 8 years old to me….She was even missing one of her front teeth!
SDEngineer
August 14, 2008 @
12:44 PM
paranoid wrote:According to [quote=paranoid]According to US law, a person is innocent unless proved guilty.
Now the americans accuse the chinese but without any prove.
Using these accusers’ logic, Phelps must be doped, otherwise how can he get so many golds? Phelps Will be the next Marion Jones.
Remind you that the US is the most advanced country in the world in technologies including bio-tech and pharmaceutics. The americans can easily make doping drugs non-detectible with current detection equipments.
What do you feel now? Do you now understand how the chinese feel with CNN blind accusations?[/quote]
The problem is that there is documentation supporting the contention that several of the gymnasts are underage (and not just the stuff that came out today). These aren’t just “blind accusations”, and haven’t been from the beginning. There is lots of evidence that several of the Chinese team members were referred to until just before the Olympic qualifiers in print and in interviews as being younger than their current passports (issued by the Chinese government) maintain.
Rockemsock
August 14, 2008 @
1:00 PM
paranoid wrote:According to [quote=paranoid]According to US law, a person is innocent unless proved guilty.
Now the americans accuse the chinese but without any prove.
Using these accusers’ logic, Phelps must be doped, otherwise how can he get so many golds? Phelps Will be the next Marion Jones.
Remind you that the US is the most advanced country in the world in technologies including bio-tech and pharmaceutics. The americans can easily make doping drugs non-detectible with current detection equipments.
What do you feel now? Do you now understand how the chinese feel with CNN blind accusations?[/quote]
Did I miss the court case or something? They are being tried in the media, not in court…big difference. This happens all the time in our MSM…where have you been?
ocrenter
August 16, 2008 @
10:02 AM
hmmm
They got some pretty [img_assist|nid=8609|title=hmmm|desc=|link=node|align=left|width=100|height=79]
They got some pretty good evidences over at HuffingtonPost.
The Chinese are well known liars that are using these games for their Nationalistic purposes. Lying about a girls’ age is well within what they are capable of.
As a Taiwanese American, I’m well versed in the type of trickeries the Chinese pull on a regular basis to push their Nationalistic agenda.
we all know Asian girls appear younger than their Caucasian counterparts. we also know gymnastics stunt your growth. these girls really look about 9. factor the Asian and gymnastics element into it, it makes sense that a 13-14 year old ends up looking 9 or 10.
patientlywaiting
August 16, 2008 @
11:36 AM
I don’t think the Chinese I don’t think the Chinese cheated.
People in other countries look much younger than Americans (especially women).
It’s the hormones in the food that we eat or something. When I’m outside of America I’m amazed at how young and slim the females look.
paranoid
August 16, 2008 @
1:08 PM
ocrenter, I read your blog on ocrenter, I read your blog on housing market with admiration. But on several China-related topics, you are clearly biased. Huffingtonpost proves nothing in my view.
BTW I thought my daughter’s teacher at Little Gym should be around 28 to 32 years old. But at the end of the class, I learned that she was actually attending high school.
ocrenter
August 16, 2008 @
5:30 PM
you can’t just make a you can’t just make a statement such as “Huffingtonpost proves nothing in my view.” tell us why it proves nothing.
maybe the China Daily got He Kexin’s age wrong back in 2007?
or perhaps sina.com had really bad sources in its 11/2007 report…
or that official gymnastics roster is a horrible place to get people’s real birthday info…
只能說大陸體操六朵金花，身型真的很嬌小，也難怪美國隊會接連抗議。
even the Taiwanese media think these 3 are really really small for their stated age. this is not a case of Caucasians misjudging appearance and age of Asians.
ocrenter
August 17, 2008 @
8:16 PM
paranoid, would appreciate paranoid, would appreciate your comments regarding Comrade Liu’s speech.
nostradamus
August 21, 2008 @
4:13 PM
Uh-oh, it’s hittin’ the Uh-oh, it’s hittin’ the fan!
I don’t know if they’re too I don’t know if they’re too young, but when one Chinese gymnast was in the middle of a vault, her diaper fell off.
Anonymous
August 17, 2008 @
12:52 AM
Yes, true, we have a legal Yes, true, we have a legal system where people are innocent until proven guilty, but the chinese dont. We try people in the media, or on blogs, and shouldnt, but the chinese can and do. The difficulty i’ve always had when working with the (mainland) Chinese is that they play by a completely different set of rules, and take advantage of the fact that we play by our own.
In China, copy right is a right-to-copy. It is truly the place where “for my friends there is always a way, and for my enemies there is always the law.” There is no doubt that Chinese government officials, leaders, and coaches have the ability and gumption to issue fake passports. Since they are isssued by the government they are legal, albiet inaccurate. There is no guilt, no shame, no concience or sense of fair play in China like in the west. If you can cheat, and win, without being caught. It is as good as a win. If you are caught, but can keep the money, or the medal, it is still a win.
Sure, it woudn’t be a big deal if the Chinese lost…but they didnt, they won. We are just as strict with our own super stars. Barry Bonds is #1 and under the limelight. Sammy Sosa is great, but not quite #1…and he just rides off into the sunset. Being #1 or in the limelight always carries the weight of higher scrutiny.
Im sure the Russians or Romanians have a few 12 year olds back home they would have loved to bring along…..but didnt. Or maybe they did, but they didnt win….so they arent being investigated.
It is actually quite easy to “prove”, within a reasonable doubt, if one wants to. Interview her teachers, friends, family photos hospital birth records, school records. Someone, something, somewhere will crack. Or it will all 100% measure up. If they were truly 16 the Chinese government would allow full and open access to all that information. The fact that the offical quoted said “we have already said she is 16. There is nothing to talk about”
Sure, stonewalling like that isnt difinitive “proof” but it emphasizes the suspicion and really points to guilt. Here are 2 tounge in cheek ways to proceed:
1. Play by their rules. Introduce Michelle Phelps. Michael’s long lost identical twin sister, issue ‘her’ a passport and enter ‘her’ in all the women’s events. (S)He would win about 50 medals and we could all say “Hey, but (S)He has a passport. Never mind the stubble, or huge lats…remember, they’re identical twins.
2. Claim (or actual) engagment in consenting relations with the girls in question. (ok not actual, since i do beleive they are 12….that’s a bit off the mark) So maybe; formal marriage proposals with a million $$ dowary to the family. (In asia the groom’s family pays the bride’s family) Since they are “really 16” (i think that is age of consent in China, if not wait 2 years.) see what the family or the governemnt says in the way of prosecution/accptance of the claim/offer 🙂
In the end, this is the comming out party for China where they can show the world what they are made of, and, they have. When dealing with Mainland Chinese caveat emptor.
Note: The Hong Kongese, Taiwanese, and Singaporean….compelely different mentality and much more reasonable/westernlike. It would be unfair to judge those three reputable islands by the character exhibited on the mainland.
cadream
August 21, 2008 @
5:20 PM
“In the end, this is the
“In the end, this is the comming out party for China where they can show the world what they are made of, and, they have. When dealing with Mainland Chinese caveat emptor”
When dealing with Americans….
Bush lied to invade Iraq, causing hundreds of thousands innocent lives. Clinton lied about his relationship with “who that woman was” under the oath, breaking laws. Formal president candidate John Edward cheated and lied about his ex-marital relationship. Millions of American lied about their incomes/financial situations to get loans that they can never repay, weakening the world economy and causing billions/trillions losses.
And our great American Olympian Marion Jones – you know what happened to her right …
American’s lies are profound and in grand scales…
What do you feel if Americans are labeled as “Che…” or Lia…”
I don’t know about this I don’t know about this losing face issue. if you are willing to cheat, then you should be willing to face the possibility of getting caught.
China is what China is, a growing power that will eventually be the most powerful country on earth.
as a growing power, just like a growing child, it is constantly pushing the envelope to see what it can get away with.
you let things go because you are afraid it might lose face, guess what, it will only cheat more. and when it finally grows up to be the world’s dominating power, it’ll bend so many rules it would not be funny at all.
U.S. has its problems. it lies and it cheats there’s no question. but it is somewhat self restrained. the world has never seen a more “benign” hegemony.
I called China out on this one and I get called bias. yet the person that accused me of being bias never responded when I went to the source and digged out Comrade Liu’s speech and translated it for him. now others have done the same and found other evidence. so what do we do?
we do nothing because we don’t want to embarrass China?
what’s next? when China invades Taiwan let’s not do anything because we don’t want China to lose face? would that also be the case when China decides to go after Mongolia and the Russian Far East?
if we are afraid to call China out on something as small as cheating and lying about age, you sure we would have the guts to stand up to it when it decides to do something major?
Aecetia
August 21, 2008 @
7:40 PM
It’s a double standard and I It’s a double standard and I agree with you about what’s next. Obviously we are either war weary or cowards. We do not want to anger China and disrupt our economic ties with them. Our athletes are at a disadvantage and the Olympic Committee will do nothing about it because anti-American feeling is at an all time high, both here (in the U.S.) and abroad.
Coronita
August 21, 2008 @
9:20 PM
Quote:
U.S. has its problems. [quote]
U.S. has its problems. it lies and it cheats there’s no question. but it is somewhat self restrained. the world has never seen a more “benign” hegemony.
we do nothing because we don’t want to embarrass China?
[/quote]
I wouldn’t think that’s the case. I think we’ve seen our fair share of cheat, lying, corruption, etc.
Second point. I would assume that you ocrenter are fairly well educated and probably distinguish between China (the government), versus Chinese (people). I’m not so sure your average hilly-billy redneck can. And is an issue. Heck, people couldn’t even get things straight between Japanese and Chinese when folks decided to bludgeon that poor chinese dude a few years ago. I seriously doubt your average american who would do better this time.
Third point, I don’t think you’re biased about things, but frankly, america doesn’t give a rats ass about Taiwan. It’s a political ploy to keep China in check. If push comes to shove, U.S. wouldn’t lift a finger to help if it weren’t for all the $$$ that defense companies make selling weapontry to taiwan.
The problem with America right now is the way I look at it. Financial security (or lack there of) is causing a national security issue.
I would think if this nation wants to get into a fight with another that is our significant creditor, at least (1) it would be over a major issue (2) that it would recognize that our indebtedness is becoming a national security issue and take drastic actions to thwart that.
Doing neither 1 nor 2 really is nothing more than a paper tiger that has enough balls to cause discomfort on trivial things without really addressing major problems.
Again we can laugh all we want about shorting the markets, and about lower housing prices, and being in such deep doodoo in debt. But is really isn’t funny when it starts impacting our security.
The way I look at it is similar to a small business that is borrowing money from a bank, and the small business at the same time is picketing outside the bank he/she is trying borrow money from stating that the bank is ridden with corruption and cheaters, how terrible the bank is, and how no one should do business with it. Sure, you want to make a big statement against the bank, fine…Don’t do business with the bank, no repercussions. This current arrangement however is less than optimal (actually, it’s an understatement).
ocrenter
August 22, 2008 @
1:26 AM
i have no illusion about the i have no illusion about the U.S. coming to the aid of Taiwan militarily if it gets to that point. ain’t gonna happen.
but in this world a lot of things is posturing. and what is gradually happening here is the U.S. slipping down that appeasement slippery slope. to the point where China would feel so confident about U.S.’s non-action that it will go ahead to do whatever it wants.
going back to China’s cheating ways. bottom line: very embarrassing to China and the Chinese people. and it shouldn’t but it will stain the achievement of all of the other Chinese athletes. as for Asian Americans, I can’t say I share the same pessimistic views about the American public.
so why did they cheat? because of that nationalistic beast. this is an authoritarian regime proped up by its nationalistic leanings. make no mistake about it.
Coronita
August 21, 2008 @
5:30 PM
This would be ironic if this This would be ironic if this competition is what triggers China to dump all the U.S. IOU notes that it owns onto to market, wouldn’t it?
There’s a point where if the intent is to cause an embarassment or for a government to “lose face”, I fear the consequences of what sort of drastic action China would take at to retaliate.
China (or chinese people in general), have a problem with “losing face”. Provoking something i fear is going to have interesting repercussions.
I don’t think these media/critics get that quite yet.
Recall, it was just months ago, when the mere mention of China would start “diversifying into euros” and reevaluate purchasing our IOUs sent our financial markets into a tailspin.
As an AA, this would create in interesting situation, similar to the days of Japan bashing in the 80ies….. Canada is looking more and more attractive each day, ehhh?
Anonymous
August 22, 2008 @
10:45 AM
Much of the discussion is out Much of the discussion is out of proportion. IOC should investigate the issue. But apparently, people don’t want to mess with the host while the game is on. American team cannot officially complain for lack of hard evidence. It is by no means elevated to the national politics.
About national politics, US is in a weak position now as demonstrated by the events in Georgia.
patb
August 22, 2008 @
2:05 PM
it’s very easy to judge it’s very easy to judge age.
It’s a standard test for forensic pathology.
1) XRay the major teeth, the wisdom teeth erupt around 18.
The bicuspids erupt in 3rd grade, molars a few years later.
2) fusion of skull sutures.
3) termination of growth plates.
There may be some variability but, then add in historic records.
school class photos, etc….
August 13, 2008 @ 2:30 PM
They sure do look under 16.
They sure do look under 16. I’ve many asian teenagers and some of them look like my 12-13 year old cousins. My 14-15 year old cousins look older than some of them on that team.
August 13, 2008 @ 2:37 PM
Absolutely! If the US fails
Absolutely! If the US fails to win a medal, it is ALWAYS because the other team cheated somehow.
Those nefarious Chinese either used underaged athletes or cosmetically altered midgets in order to secure that victory.
We should bomb them. Right after Iran, Russia and North Korea.
Failing that, we should sue.
August 16, 2008 @ 8:42 PM
asianautica wrote:They sure
[quote=asianautica]They sure do look under 16. I’ve many asian teenagers and some of them look like my 12-13 year old cousins. My 14-15 year old cousins look older than some of them on that team.[/quote]
Some of them looked 10-12 years old LOL.
August 16, 2008 @ 9:12 PM
the reason they look 10 is
the reason they look 10 is because gymnastics stunt their growth. so a 14 year old would look like she’s 10. but very hard to get a 16 year old to look like she’s 10.
we’re not the only ones questioning this. people in China are questioning the same thing. here’s a xinhua webpage dated November 3rd in 2007 saved as a google doc page before the page was removed by censors on August 15.
https://docs.google.com/View?docid=ajghrvdnp5dh_357g8rzhjcm
August 16, 2008 @ 10:27 PM
getting more stuff as I
getting more stuff as I dig… sorry for all the Chinese, I’ll try to translate.
here’s a speech by President Liu of China’s Sports Association in November of ’07:
劉鵬局長在組委會第四次會議上的講話
時間︰2007-11-03
在第六屆全國城市運動會組委會第四次會議
6th annual countrywide all city sports meet planning committee fourth meeting
暨各代表團團長會議上的講話
劉 鵬
2007年11月3日，武漢 (Wuhan)
各位委員、同志們︰
fellow association members, comrades:
經過10天緊張激烈的角逐，第六屆全國城市運動會今天就要閉幕了
after 10 days of fierce and exciting competition, the 6th countrywide all city sports meet will come to an end today…
followed by bunch of crap about the Chinese Communist Party… how the olympic is the biggest event for all ethic Chinese in a hundred years… … that the Central Government has been paying special attention to the ongoings of these sports meet…
several areas have been improved upon during the sports meet:
(一)進行廣泛的思想發動
1. general unified thought and understanding
(二)層層落實責任
2. responsibility at all levels
(三)認真分析形勢，及時完善措施
3. understand and analyze and provide comprehensive strategy
quite a bit more of this strategy talk…
比賽中，創造了一批好成績。共有1人1次超1項世界紀錄；2人2次平1項世界紀錄；1人2次超2項世界青年紀錄； 4人4次創4項全國紀錄； 5人2隊9次創8項全國青年紀錄
during the competition, we had some excellent results. one person exceeded a world record, 2 people matched world records, one person passed 2 junior world records, 4 people set countrywide records…
13歲的體操高低杠選手何可欣出色地完成了“李婭空翻”的全套動作，戰勝了剛剛獲得世錦賽季軍的國手楊伊琳，顯示出了較高水平
13 year old gymnast He Kexin performed a special parallel bar routine, winning against fellow gymnast Yang…
rest of speech in chinese can be found here:
http://diary.wenxuecity.com/diary.php?c_lang=big5&currdate=200808&pid=19516&page=1
….
so as you can see, the top sports guy in China knew He Kexin was only 13 in 2007. The Central Government also knew. and suddenly He Kexin has a passport showing that she’s 16 in 2008.
so the Huffingtonpost doesn’t matter, so we go beyond the Huffingtonpost and bring you the real stuff straight from Comrade Liu. Does that not matter too?
August 13, 2008 @ 2:35 PM
AA. Yeah, but my question is,
AA. Yeah, but my question is, how many asian women do you know that are look close to early twenties but are indeed closer to mid thirties? Can you really tell?
It just seems like CNN/SI like to plaster this on headline news.
What next, Michael Phelps accused of steroid use because he’s winning too much?
August 13, 2008 @ 4:06 PM
Asian female looks a lot of
Asian female looks a lot of younger than their age when compare to other races. However, when you compare against other Asians or even comparing them directly to Chinese, you have a pretty reliable yard stick. Some of them look as young as my 10-12 year old CHINESE cousins.
[quote=nostradamus]What can a 13-year-old do that a 16-year-old can’t?[/quote]
If you noticed, girls start hitting puberty and their growth spurt around 13 years old. So a 13 year old girl will probably be much smaller than a 16 year old. There are things you can do better when you are smaller.
I would say the American lost because one of their gymnast failed under pressure with the beam and floor event. However, the media will always try to make a story as big as they can. Sometimes, out of nothing at all.
August 13, 2008 @ 3:05 PM
I kinda think any time you
I kinda think any time you disregard the rules, for the purpose of winning, you are cheating. Even if the rule is dumb. The best person should be able to go, regardless of age, race, sexual orientation, etc. If the rule is 16, then everyone should be 16. There may be some very deserving 15 year old Americans who could have helped win Gold but didnt get to go.
August 13, 2008 @ 3:19 PM
DWCAP, I think I would agree
DWCAP, I think I would agree with that. Except, especially in our culture and judicial system is based on a burden of proof “beyond the shadow of doubt”. As such, I’m surprised how quickly the media is focusing/accusing of suspected cheating.
August 13, 2008 @ 3:37 PM
What can a 13-year-old do
What can a 13-year-old do that a 16-year-old can’t?
August 13, 2008 @ 3:50 PM
United States have two
United States have two 15-year old girls on the diving team. Why should it be wrong for China to have 15-year old gymnasts?
August 13, 2008 @ 4:14 PM
All I know is we bought a lot
All I know is we bought a lot of junk from China and they turned it into spectacular venues. $200 million for the “Cube” and every race is a new World Record. Opening night was jaw dropping. Can’t wait for track to start.
August 13, 2008 @ 4:44 PM
I heard many Chinese athletes
I heard many Chinese athletes were from poor rural area. I think they didn’t receive the same diet nutrition as Americans. lol
I have to tell you when I traveled in Japan, I found many men in their 30s looked like teenagers.
August 13, 2008 @ 6:07 PM
Does underaged girls enhance
Does underaged girls enhance the performance? What is the beef here? This goes to show that they are dominating in the olympic by just having young athletes. Wait until the next olympic, by then these older athletes are much better and well prepared. Freakin CNN is Bunch of losers having nothing to do but complain.
August 13, 2008 @ 6:16 PM
Britain has a 14-year old
Britain has a 14-year old diver.
August 13, 2008 @ 7:09 PM
sfexporter wrote:Does
[quote=sfexporter]Does underaged girls enhance the performance? What is the beef here? This goes to show that they are dominating in the olympic by just having young athletes. Wait until the next olympic, by then these older athletes are much better and well prepared. Freakin CNN is Bunch of losers having nothing to do but complain. [/quote]
According to the US coach’s husband, it does make a positive difference. Maybe that’s why you don’t see too many 20+ year old gymnast competing.
August 13, 2008 @ 8:07 PM
Maybe the spirit of the rule
Maybe the spirit of the rule is to protect children from massive pressure or exploitation. The Olympics other than gymnastics does seem like an adult maturity level event. I think in girls gymnastic puberty can take out a lot of girls.Evidently, hips, breasts and weight in general make the sport more difficult. Maybe there are other factors, like accumulated injuries and flexibility issues?
August 13, 2008 @ 8:38 PM
I really dont understand what
I really dont understand what diving has to do with gymnasicics. If the rule is 16 in one sport, who cares if that doesnt apply to another sport? Look, the rule is dumb. The best in the world should go, not the best at a certain age. Why not limit the whole olympics to those over 18 or 21 if we want to protect kids?
But if a rule exists, and you ignor it in order to win, you are cheating. Too bad the IOC is a bunch of lame, impotent, eunuch’s with no ability to stand up for anything.
August 13, 2008 @ 8:53 PM
The sport is called Women’s
The sport is called Women’s Artistic Gymnastics.
Twelve year olds aren’t women.
And yes, for gymnastics, pre-puberty bodies are smaller, lighter and have a better muscle strength to weight ratio, all of which makes the technical moves easier.
When the Olympic committee decided on 16 years of age as a minimum, they were debating doing 18. The reason was the push for younger and younger girls to be competing.
August 13, 2008 @ 11:44 PM
According to US law, a person
According to US law, a person is innocent unless proved guilty.
Now the americans accuse the chinese but without any prove.
Using these accusers’ logic, Phelps must be doped, otherwise how can he get so many golds? Phelps Will be the next Marion Jones.
Remind you that the US is the most advanced country in the world in technologies including bio-tech and pharmaceutics. The americans can easily make doping drugs non-detectible with current detection equipments.
What do you feel now? Do you now understand how the chinese feel with CNN blind accusations?
August 14, 2008 @ 12:56 AM
One girl looked like 8 years
One girl looked like 8 years old to me….She was even missing one of her front teeth!
August 14, 2008 @ 12:44 PM
paranoid wrote:According to
[quote=paranoid]According to US law, a person is innocent unless proved guilty.
Now the americans accuse the chinese but without any prove.
Using these accusers’ logic, Phelps must be doped, otherwise how can he get so many golds? Phelps Will be the next Marion Jones.
Remind you that the US is the most advanced country in the world in technologies including bio-tech and pharmaceutics. The americans can easily make doping drugs non-detectible with current detection equipments.
What do you feel now? Do you now understand how the chinese feel with CNN blind accusations?[/quote]
The problem is that there is documentation supporting the contention that several of the gymnasts are underage (and not just the stuff that came out today). These aren’t just “blind accusations”, and haven’t been from the beginning. There is lots of evidence that several of the Chinese team members were referred to until just before the Olympic qualifiers in print and in interviews as being younger than their current passports (issued by the Chinese government) maintain.
August 14, 2008 @ 1:00 PM
paranoid wrote:According to
[quote=paranoid]According to US law, a person is innocent unless proved guilty.
Now the americans accuse the chinese but without any prove.
Using these accusers’ logic, Phelps must be doped, otherwise how can he get so many golds? Phelps Will be the next Marion Jones.
Remind you that the US is the most advanced country in the world in technologies including bio-tech and pharmaceutics. The americans can easily make doping drugs non-detectible with current detection equipments.
What do you feel now? Do you now understand how the chinese feel with CNN blind accusations?[/quote]
Did I miss the court case or something? They are being tried in the media, not in court…big difference. This happens all the time in our MSM…where have you been?
August 16, 2008 @ 10:02 AM
hmmm
They got some pretty
[img_assist|nid=8609|title=hmmm|desc=|link=node|align=left|width=100|height=79]
They got some pretty good evidences over at HuffingtonPost.
The Chinese are well known liars that are using these games for their Nationalistic purposes. Lying about a girls’ age is well within what they are capable of.
As a Taiwanese American, I’m well versed in the type of trickeries the Chinese pull on a regular basis to push their Nationalistic agenda.
we all know Asian girls appear younger than their Caucasian counterparts. we also know gymnastics stunt your growth. these girls really look about 9. factor the Asian and gymnastics element into it, it makes sense that a 13-14 year old ends up looking 9 or 10.
August 16, 2008 @ 11:36 AM
I don’t think the Chinese
I don’t think the Chinese cheated.
People in other countries look much younger than Americans (especially women).
It’s the hormones in the food that we eat or something. When I’m outside of America I’m amazed at how young and slim the females look.
August 16, 2008 @ 1:08 PM
ocrenter, I read your blog on
ocrenter, I read your blog on housing market with admiration. But on several China-related topics, you are clearly biased. Huffingtonpost proves nothing in my view.
BTW I thought my daughter’s teacher at Little Gym should be around 28 to 32 years old. But at the end of the class, I learned that she was actually attending high school.
August 16, 2008 @ 5:30 PM
you can’t just make a
you can’t just make a statement such as “Huffingtonpost proves nothing in my view.” tell us why it proves nothing.
maybe the China Daily got He Kexin’s age wrong back in 2007?
or perhaps sina.com had really bad sources in its 11/2007 report…
or that official gymnastics roster is a horrible place to get people’s real birthday info…
只能說大陸體操六朵金花，身型真的很嬌小，也難怪美國隊會接連抗議。
even the Taiwanese media think these 3 are really really small for their stated age. this is not a case of Caucasians misjudging appearance and age of Asians.
August 17, 2008 @ 8:16 PM
paranoid, would appreciate
paranoid, would appreciate your comments regarding Comrade Liu’s speech.
August 21, 2008 @ 4:13 PM
Uh-oh, it’s hittin’ the
Uh-oh, it’s hittin’ the fan!
IOC orders investigation into He Kexin’s age
August 21, 2008 @ 4:41 PM
nostradamus wrote:Uh-oh, it’s
[quote=nostradamus]Uh-oh, it’s hittin’ the fan!
IOC orders investigation into He Kexin’s age[/quote]
Fix linky:
IOC orders investigation into He Kexin’s age
August 21, 2008 @ 7:44 PM
asianautica wrote:nostradamus
[quote=asianautica][quote=nostradamus]Uh-oh, it’s hittin’ the fan!
IOC orders investigation into He Kexin’s age[/quote]
Fix linky:
IOC orders investigation into He Kexin’s age[/quote]
I bet she is 10 at most.
John
August 16, 2008 @ 6:41 PM
I don’t know if they’re too
I don’t know if they’re too young, but when one Chinese gymnast was in the middle of a vault, her diaper fell off.
August 17, 2008 @ 12:52 AM
Yes, true, we have a legal
Yes, true, we have a legal system where people are innocent until proven guilty, but the chinese dont. We try people in the media, or on blogs, and shouldnt, but the chinese can and do. The difficulty i’ve always had when working with the (mainland) Chinese is that they play by a completely different set of rules, and take advantage of the fact that we play by our own.
In China, copy right is a right-to-copy. It is truly the place where “for my friends there is always a way, and for my enemies there is always the law.” There is no doubt that Chinese government officials, leaders, and coaches have the ability and gumption to issue fake passports. Since they are isssued by the government they are legal, albiet inaccurate. There is no guilt, no shame, no concience or sense of fair play in China like in the west. If you can cheat, and win, without being caught. It is as good as a win. If you are caught, but can keep the money, or the medal, it is still a win.
Sure, it woudn’t be a big deal if the Chinese lost…but they didnt, they won. We are just as strict with our own super stars. Barry Bonds is #1 and under the limelight. Sammy Sosa is great, but not quite #1…and he just rides off into the sunset. Being #1 or in the limelight always carries the weight of higher scrutiny.
Im sure the Russians or Romanians have a few 12 year olds back home they would have loved to bring along…..but didnt. Or maybe they did, but they didnt win….so they arent being investigated.
It is actually quite easy to “prove”, within a reasonable doubt, if one wants to. Interview her teachers, friends, family photos hospital birth records, school records. Someone, something, somewhere will crack. Or it will all 100% measure up. If they were truly 16 the Chinese government would allow full and open access to all that information. The fact that the offical quoted said “we have already said she is 16. There is nothing to talk about”
Sure, stonewalling like that isnt difinitive “proof” but it emphasizes the suspicion and really points to guilt. Here are 2 tounge in cheek ways to proceed:
1. Play by their rules. Introduce Michelle Phelps. Michael’s long lost identical twin sister, issue ‘her’ a passport and enter ‘her’ in all the women’s events. (S)He would win about 50 medals and we could all say “Hey, but (S)He has a passport. Never mind the stubble, or huge lats…remember, they’re identical twins.
2. Claim (or actual) engagment in consenting relations with the girls in question. (ok not actual, since i do beleive they are 12….that’s a bit off the mark) So maybe; formal marriage proposals with a million $$ dowary to the family. (In asia the groom’s family pays the bride’s family) Since they are “really 16” (i think that is age of consent in China, if not wait 2 years.) see what the family or the governemnt says in the way of prosecution/accptance of the claim/offer 🙂
In the end, this is the comming out party for China where they can show the world what they are made of, and, they have. When dealing with Mainland Chinese caveat emptor.
Note: The Hong Kongese, Taiwanese, and Singaporean….compelely different mentality and much more reasonable/westernlike. It would be unfair to judge those three reputable islands by the character exhibited on the mainland.
August 21, 2008 @ 5:20 PM
“In the end, this is the
“In the end, this is the comming out party for China where they can show the world what they are made of, and, they have. When dealing with Mainland Chinese caveat emptor”
When dealing with Americans….
Bush lied to invade Iraq, causing hundreds of thousands innocent lives. Clinton lied about his relationship with “who that woman was” under the oath, breaking laws. Formal president candidate John Edward cheated and lied about his ex-marital relationship. Millions of American lied about their incomes/financial situations to get loans that they can never repay, weakening the world economy and causing billions/trillions losses.
And our great American Olympian Marion Jones – you know what happened to her right …
American’s lies are profound and in grand scales…
What do you feel if Americans are labeled as “Che…” or Lia…”
August 21, 2008 @ 5:30 PM
Lol. Horse
Lol. Horse doping….
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/olympics/wires/08/21/2090.ap.oly.equ.horse.doping/index.html
August 21, 2008 @ 5:54 PM
I don’t know about this
I don’t know about this losing face issue. if you are willing to cheat, then you should be willing to face the possibility of getting caught.
China is what China is, a growing power that will eventually be the most powerful country on earth.
as a growing power, just like a growing child, it is constantly pushing the envelope to see what it can get away with.
you let things go because you are afraid it might lose face, guess what, it will only cheat more. and when it finally grows up to be the world’s dominating power, it’ll bend so many rules it would not be funny at all.
U.S. has its problems. it lies and it cheats there’s no question. but it is somewhat self restrained. the world has never seen a more “benign” hegemony.
I called China out on this one and I get called bias. yet the person that accused me of being bias never responded when I went to the source and digged out Comrade Liu’s speech and translated it for him. now others have done the same and found other evidence. so what do we do?
we do nothing because we don’t want to embarrass China?
what’s next? when China invades Taiwan let’s not do anything because we don’t want China to lose face? would that also be the case when China decides to go after Mongolia and the Russian Far East?
if we are afraid to call China out on something as small as cheating and lying about age, you sure we would have the guts to stand up to it when it decides to do something major?
August 21, 2008 @ 7:40 PM
It’s a double standard and I
It’s a double standard and I agree with you about what’s next. Obviously we are either war weary or cowards. We do not want to anger China and disrupt our economic ties with them. Our athletes are at a disadvantage and the Olympic Committee will do nothing about it because anti-American feeling is at an all time high, both here (in the U.S.) and abroad.
August 21, 2008 @ 9:20 PM
Quote:
U.S. has its problems.
[quote]
U.S. has its problems. it lies and it cheats there’s no question. but it is somewhat self restrained. the world has never seen a more “benign” hegemony.
we do nothing because we don’t want to embarrass China?
[/quote]
I wouldn’t think that’s the case. I think we’ve seen our fair share of cheat, lying, corruption, etc.
Second point. I would assume that you ocrenter are fairly well educated and probably distinguish between China (the government), versus Chinese (people). I’m not so sure your average hilly-billy redneck can. And is an issue. Heck, people couldn’t even get things straight between Japanese and Chinese when folks decided to bludgeon that poor chinese dude a few years ago. I seriously doubt your average american who would do better this time.
Third point, I don’t think you’re biased about things, but frankly, america doesn’t give a rats ass about Taiwan. It’s a political ploy to keep China in check. If push comes to shove, U.S. wouldn’t lift a finger to help if it weren’t for all the $$$ that defense companies make selling weapontry to taiwan.
The problem with America right now is the way I look at it. Financial security (or lack there of) is causing a national security issue.
I would think if this nation wants to get into a fight with another that is our significant creditor, at least (1) it would be over a major issue (2) that it would recognize that our indebtedness is becoming a national security issue and take drastic actions to thwart that.
Doing neither 1 nor 2 really is nothing more than a paper tiger that has enough balls to cause discomfort on trivial things without really addressing major problems.
Again we can laugh all we want about shorting the markets, and about lower housing prices, and being in such deep doodoo in debt. But is really isn’t funny when it starts impacting our security.
The way I look at it is similar to a small business that is borrowing money from a bank, and the small business at the same time is picketing outside the bank he/she is trying borrow money from stating that the bank is ridden with corruption and cheaters, how terrible the bank is, and how no one should do business with it. Sure, you want to make a big statement against the bank, fine…Don’t do business with the bank, no repercussions. This current arrangement however is less than optimal (actually, it’s an understatement).
August 22, 2008 @ 1:26 AM
i have no illusion about the
i have no illusion about the U.S. coming to the aid of Taiwan militarily if it gets to that point. ain’t gonna happen.
but in this world a lot of things is posturing. and what is gradually happening here is the U.S. slipping down that appeasement slippery slope. to the point where China would feel so confident about U.S.’s non-action that it will go ahead to do whatever it wants.
going back to China’s cheating ways. bottom line: very embarrassing to China and the Chinese people. and it shouldn’t but it will stain the achievement of all of the other Chinese athletes. as for Asian Americans, I can’t say I share the same pessimistic views about the American public.
so why did they cheat? because of that nationalistic beast. this is an authoritarian regime proped up by its nationalistic leanings. make no mistake about it.
August 21, 2008 @ 5:30 PM
This would be ironic if this
This would be ironic if this competition is what triggers China to dump all the U.S. IOU notes that it owns onto to market, wouldn’t it?
There’s a point where if the intent is to cause an embarassment or for a government to “lose face”, I fear the consequences of what sort of drastic action China would take at to retaliate.
China (or chinese people in general), have a problem with “losing face”. Provoking something i fear is going to have interesting repercussions.
I don’t think these media/critics get that quite yet.
Recall, it was just months ago, when the mere mention of China would start “diversifying into euros” and reevaluate purchasing our IOUs sent our financial markets into a tailspin.
As an AA, this would create in interesting situation, similar to the days of Japan bashing in the 80ies….. Canada is looking more and more attractive each day, ehhh?
August 22, 2008 @ 10:45 AM
Much of the discussion is out
Much of the discussion is out of proportion. IOC should investigate the issue. But apparently, people don’t want to mess with the host while the game is on. American team cannot officially complain for lack of hard evidence. It is by no means elevated to the national politics.
About national politics, US is in a weak position now as demonstrated by the events in Georgia.
August 22, 2008 @ 2:05 PM
it’s very easy to judge
it’s very easy to judge age.
It’s a standard test for forensic pathology.
1) XRay the major teeth, the wisdom teeth erupt around 18.
The bicuspids erupt in 3rd grade, molars a few years later.
2) fusion of skull sutures.
3) termination of growth plates.
There may be some variability but, then add in historic records.
school class photos, etc….
it’s hard to fake after the fact