[zk]

[quote=bearishgurl]

Sorry if you read it the way you did, Rich.[/quote]

That’s one step below a chicken shit apology. Which is to say it’s not an apology at all.

I’m sorry if you read it the way you did?!

That’s blaming Rich for your ignorance.

How about, “I’m sorry I ranted ignorantly before I really understood the thread.”

That would be an apology.

[zk]

I’m at work right now, and don’t have time to post much. But when I get home, I’m going to let you have it, bg. And you’re going to end up looking stupid and running away with your tail between your legs just like you did when we discussed “economic obsolescence.” I’m not sure why you keep trying, I’d have thought you’d have learned. Oh, I forgot. You’re not that smart.

[zk]

[quote=bearishgurl]
Ahhh, I find this thread re-a-llly interesting. zk, you brought up some things here that indicate that YOU have your own issues that you are bringing here which have nothing to do with tidiness or cleanliness. zk, are you comparing yourself here to a pedophile or rapist who is “tidy?” What does being a pedophile or rapist have to do with tidiness?

[/quote]

Wow. For the longest time, I thought you were pretty sharp, bg. But lately you’ve been posting nothing but scattershot, fire-from-the-hip, uninformed, off-the-point stupidity. Read Brian’s post, and then mine. Obviously I was countering Brian’s suggestion that a tidy person is superior in upbringing by bringing up a hypothetical person who was brought up to be tidy while simultaneously having a horrible upbringing. It’s not that complicated. But then, you’re not that smart.

[zk]

[quote=FlyerInHi]
But yes, clean, tidy people are superior.
[/quote]
Do you mean superior in general, or just in the following?:
[quote=FlyerInHi]

Superior in upbringing
[/quote]

Superior in upbringing? So a tidy person who was taught to be tidy and was sexually abused and is now a rapist or a pedophile is superior in upbringing to a person who grew up in a messy house and was taught to treat people right and is now messy but treats people well?
[quote=FlyerInHi]

and personal discipline. [/quote]

So a person who is messy but faithful to his wife and thrifty is inferior in personal discipline to one who is tidy but cheats on his wife and who can’t control his spending?
[quote=FlyerInHi]

I believe that clean people have their lives together more. [/quote]

Well, of course you do. You’re narrow-minded. You can’t see that it’s possible that you’re wrong about that. You start with that conclusion, and you make all your arguments and fit all your observations to match that conclusion. You have such a strong aversion to untidiness that you automatically equate it to a person not having his life together. I know lots of untidy people and lots of tidy people, and I see no correlation between their tidiness and how “together” their lives are. Except in the case of, say, alcoholics or drug addicts who are unable to keep their lives together and become messy because of that. Not the other way around. I don’t know anybody who’s an alcoholic or a bad person because they’re messy.
[quote=FlyerInHi]

Piles of laundry, moldy bathrooms, and messed up lives kinda go together. [/quote]

In your head, they do.
[quote=FlyerInHi]

Not to say that messy people have messed up lives, but people who have messed up lives live in messed-up, messy environments. [/quote]

I believe you did just say that

[quote=FlyerInHi]
I believe that clean people have their lives together more. [/quote]

[quote=FlyerInHi]
Not to say that messy people have messed up lives, but people who have messed up lives live in messed-up, messy environments. [/quote]

People who have messed up lives live in messy environments? Man, you just keep coming up with weirder and weirder stuff. There are plenty of people who have messed up lives who live in immaculate houses.

This is a perfect illustration of the blinders you’re wearing. You see messy and automatically see messed up. You see neat and you automatically see not messed up. How else would you come to the conclusion that people who have messed up lives live in messy environments?
[quote=FlyerInHi]

I would surmise that clean people like your wife would never get into drugs or involved with the wrong crowd simply because they could not bear the messy, dirty environments. [/quote]

You’re starting with the assumption that the “wrong” crowd lives in a messy environment. You start all your arguments with the assumption that untidy=bad=untidy. That’s the problem with your argument. I’m asking you why messy is bad, and your answers are “messy is bad, and therefore people who are messy are inferior” and “bad people are messy and therefore messy is bad.” Can you tell me why messy is bad with an argument that doesn’t already assume that messy is bad?
[quote=FlyerInHi]

Messy people are more happy go lucky and they could more easily be induced into joining “fun” crowds. [/quote]

I feel like Billy Bob Thornton in Bad Santa when he asks the little chubby kid if anybody has ever dropped him on his head.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKNrYb0s3xc

“God Dammit, are you fuckin’ with me!?!?!?”

Really, sometimes you’re so far out in left field I don’t know what angle to come at you from. Being happy-go-lucky and being induced into joining “fun” crowds are bad things? Geez, gramma, take the stick outta your ass.
[quote=FlyerInHi]

Also superior in the sense that cleanliness and tidiness are traits that we value over messiness. The art of being tidy is taught in school, academies. It’s strictly enforced in the military and other environments. [/quote]

The idea that homosexuality is an abomination is taught to billions of people. That doesn’t make it true or a good philosophy. Society comes up with all kinds of bullshit that isn’t good.
[quote=FlyerInHi]

Tidiness is associated with beauty and a pleasant environment. [/quote]

You state this as if it’s a universally-held view. It’s not.
[quote=FlyerInHi]

When you go to Switzerland, you admire the Swiss for their cleanliness.[/quote]

Uh, no I don’t. You do.
[quote=FlyerInHi]

#1. If they were so sure that messiness is normal, then why are they embarrassed to invite people over to a messy house? If one is confident about oneself, just show the house like one normally keeps it. [/quote]

Society does prefer tidiness. That doesn’t mean it’s good. Or even normal. Our society also prefers chewing with our mouths closed, not burping aloud, saying “god bless you” when somebody sneezes, that women wear makeup and shave their legs, and a million other things that aren’t inherently good. Lots of people avoid breaking these rules or are embarrassed when they break them. Not because these things are inherently bad, but because our society deems them bad.
[quote=FlyerInHi]

#2. Messy people do like and appreciate cleanliness but they don’t have the discipline to keep their own houses clean. But when they go somewhere, they expect clean. I’ll illustrate: I’ve traveled and shared hotel rooms with messy people. I’m clean so I don’t need room service everyday (but I will leave appropriate tips anyway). The messy people insist on daily room service (which in my mind is proof that they expect perfection when they don’t have to do it themselves). [/quote]

Perhaps they insisted on the clean, and the tidy just came along with it. That’s how it was for me. When I travel (I should say travelled, it’s different now that I’m married), I didn’t insist on daily room service. But I preferred it so that I didn’t have to clean. I will clean if I have to (I won’t tidy up, though, generally). I’m messy, but I’m not dirty. I don’t like cleaning, but I do it because I insist on clean. If somebody will do it for me, perfect.
[quote=FlyerInHi]
Also, in a developing country, the messy people complain when a hotel or restaurant is not up to their American expectations. They fail to consider the price to value ratio. And they are fussy about where to stay and eat. [/quote]

There are lots of aspects of a hotel or restaurant that might not be up to their expectations. I think you’re assuming that tidiness ranks high among them for your messy friends. I think there’s a good chance that’s an incorrect assumption. Cleanliness is a different matter.
[quote=FlyerInHi]

Maybe I’m conflating messy with dirty, but I do think the 2 go hand in hand (not always, but usually). [/quote]

If you want to debate the merits of cleanliness, that’s an entirely different subject. I think maybe you are conflating messy with dirty.
[quote=FlyerInHi]

I’m not fussy [/quote]

Somehow I doubt that. Basically everything you write screams fussy.
[quote=FlyerInHi]

…but I do observe and judge. [/quote]

I don’t doubt that at all.
[quote=FlyerInHi]

I was recently looking at investment properties with and friend and his gf. It was a lower-middle neighborhood. The gf is a messy person, but she commented about the messy neighborhood which she didn’t like… blah, blah, blah. I wanted to say “yeah, you should be talking. this is an investment for god’s sake. you get what you pay for!” [/quote]

I think your experiences with messy people are colored by your pre-existing bias. They don’t jibe with anything I’ve experienced or seen. My experience is that messy people aren’t bothered by a mess. And that’s why they don’t bother to tidy up. You seem to insist that messy people only don’t tidy up because they have poor habits. And then you say “they have poor habits because they don’t tidy up.” Because you are so certain that untidiness is absolutely, unarguably a bad thing, you then automatically assume that anybody who is messy is inferior. Again, you’re starting with untidy=bad=untidy. Try starting fresh. With an open, broad mind. And without assuming that untidy=bad=untidy. And without using societal expectations as a starting point. And then tell me why you think untidy is bad. What problems does it cause besides discomfort to fussy people?

I have a pet peeve. I am very bothered when people chew with their mouths open and eat loudly. Here’s the difference between me and you, Brian: I know that this is my problem. There’s nothing wrong with chewing with one’s mouth open. Society frowns on it. But there’s nothing inherently bad about it. I know this, and I accept this. I don’t judge people for chewing with their mouths open. I’m kind of disgusted by it, but I accept that that’s my problem, not theirs.

So, what it really comes down to is, is messy a bad thing for humans? You have presented no evidence that it is. All your conclusions come from the starting point of untidy=bad=untidy or societal expectations.

You’re like a person who thinks he’s superior because he’s smart. His IQ is higher than most people’s so he thinks he’s better than them. He’s not. He’s not even necessarily smarter than most people. He’s only smarter in the narrow range of intelligence that IQ tests measure. Maybe he’s retarded in other areas, such as emotional intelligence or common sense.

In any case, a person’s value shouldn’t be measured by their intelligence, let alone their their tidiness or lack thereof.

Same with a tidy person. Maybe he’s tidy, but that doesn’t make him superior. It doesn’t even make him superior in discipline and personal habits. Maybe he cheats on his wife or can’t control his spending or doesn’t change the oil in his car. An untidy person has more stuff lying around his house and his bed isn’t made. What damage does that cause? What problems does that cause? Why are you judging him for that?

Having as strong an aversion to untidiness as you do is ok. I think it’s a bit weird, but nothing to judge your character on. Judging other people as inferior because of untidiness is, I think, a fairly major personal flaw that you don’t even understand that you have. I’ve always kind of admired that you never get rattled no matter what people say about you. But now I wonder if that doesn’t go beyond confidence and serenity to an inability to understand that you actually do have flaws and that those people might be right.

You are narrow-minded because you can’t see past your own opinion that untidiness is a bad thing and because you can’t see that untidiness is not something to judge people by. You see untidiness with blinders on. You see untidiness and you can’t imagine that untidiness fits in with a normal, healthy life. You can’t see that, not because untidiness is an important and bad thing (which is your view), but because you’re narrow-minded and can’t see past your own view.

[zk]

[quote=FlyerInHi]Superior, inferior.. those are such loaded words.

But yes, clean, tidy people are superior. Superior in upbringing, and personal discipline.

I believe that clean people have their lives together more.

Piles of laundry, moldy bathrooms, and messed up lives kinda go together. Not to say that messy people have messed up lives, but people who have messed up lives live in messed-up, messy environments.

I would surmise that clean people like your wife would never get into drugs or involved with the wrong crowd simply because they could not bear the messy, dirty environments.

Messy people are more happy go lucky and they could more easily be induced into joining “fun” crowds.

(I’m not talking about rich people who can buy anything they want. That’s a different group).

Also superior is the sense that cleanliness and tidiness are traits that we value over messiness. The art of being tidy is taught in school, academies. It’s strictly enforced in the military and other environments.

Tidiness is associated with beauty and a pleasant environment. When you go to Switzerland, you admire the Swiss for their cleanliness.[/quote]

Brian, your narrow-mindedness is spectacular. (I’ll explain if you or anybody else wants, but I think your narrow-mindedness speaks for itself).

Also, it seems you have real trouble understanding that your opinions are not shared by the rest of the world. Maybe it’s just the way you phrase things. But you consistently (in this thread and others) seem to indicate that you think your opinions are universally-held views. And yet you come across as somebody who considers himself enlightened and cosmopolitan (although I could be wrong about that). An interesting contradiction.

[zk]

[quote=FlyerInHi]
Some neighborhoods have candy wrappers, potato chip bags, shopping bags and other litter flying about. Let’s not forget messy yards and junky cars. Is that important in the big picture?

The details do add up.[/quote]

The people who live in those neighborhoods might drive through your neighborhood or look at your house and think you’re uptight, stuffy, even neurotic.

So far you’ve avoided the questions I’m really curious about the answers to:

Do you think messy is inferior? If so, why?

[zk]

[quote=FlyerInHi]zk, if your wife can notice an out-of-place paper clip, and she married you, then you can’t be that bad. [/quote]
Not true. It was a massive adjustment for both of us. I’m probably 97% neater than I used to be. And for her to overlook (or clean up herself) that last 3% is probably harder for her than picking up after myself is for me (and that’s pretty hard).
[quote=FlyerInHi]
Trust me, you’re lucky to have married your wife.
[/quote]
Truer words were never spoken. But it’s got nothing to do with neatness.
[quote=FlyerInHi]
I bet she keeps a nice fresh home where you’re proud to invite people over.
[/quote]
Our home is super fresh and extremely neat and clean. We are proud to invite people over. But there are disadvantages to having a neat-freak wife:

We have a very large back yard with a bocce ball court, a covered patio, a built in bbq, an iron gazebo shaded by bougainvillea, a fire pit, a putting green, a horseshoe pit, a huge cabana with a 60 inch tv, a lawn big enough for croquet or badminton, and a 270 degree view. Perfect for entertaining 60 or 70 people. But she won’t have more than three couples and their kids over at a time. (She tries to keep it to two couples, but will allow three in a pinch.) Because it would freak her out to have the house that messy just between the time it got messy and when we finished cleaning up. And somebody might, god forbid, spill something on the carpet. Given the option, I’d take both large parties and some messiness rather than neither.

Also, when I have a poker game or a football draft at my house, everybody has to stay outside (in the cabana) except to use the bathroom. And they have to go around the house and through the garage to get there.

I managed to get permission to have a small super bowl party last year. Had about 20 or 25 people over. It took me a year to get permission, and I heard about it for a month after. Not doing that again.

So there are disadvantages. But, hey, to make a marriage work, you have to work together and compromise. I do most of the giving in this particular area, but she more than makes up for it in other areas.

So, I don’t see myself as lucky that my wife is neat. I see the advantages of it, but overall it’s not a benefit.

[quote=FlyerInHi]
If you had married a messy woman, your life would have gone downhill quickly. [/quote]
Brian, you seem to have this strange idea that if a person’s bed isn’t made, they’re living a horrible existence. I couldn’t care less if my bed is made. I only make it because it makes my wife happy.

I understand why she wants the bed made. I understand why you want the bed made. My wife understands that I don’t care if the bed is made and appreciates when I make it for her. What I don’t understand is why you don’t understand that to some people it’s ok that the bed is not made.

I grew up in a messy house and it didn’t bother me. I lived in a messy house before I got married (clean for the most part, but messy). It didn’t bother me. If I had a messy wife, I’d have a messy house now, and I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t bother me. If it did bother me, I’d tidy it up.
[quote=FlyerInHi]I’ve seen bad situations in my peers, friends and acquaintances. One guy owns 2 houses and both of them are clusterf–k! [/quote]
Is he happy or unhappy? That’s what’s important. Not whether his bed is made or his living room is uncluttered.
[quote=FlyerInHi]
Messy people know that there’s something wrong with them that’s why they are too embarrassed to have people over. They only meet people outside the home. That’s a telltale sign of a messy person.
[/quote]
There’s something wrong with them? You’re judging people because they’re messy? It seems to me like there’s something wrong with you. Lacking empathy and judging people over unimportant things is, in my opinion, a way bigger problem than being messy.
[quote=FlyerInHi]
I’ve read that hoarding is a disease that gets progressively worse. A friend is dating a women whose mom is a hoarder. Since they moved in together, the apartment has become more cluttered. They keep on buying cabinets to put useless things in. I wonder if hoarding is hereditary but, either nature or nurture, I don’t think the nuts fall too far from the tree.
[/quote]
Hoarding is different from messy.

[zk]

[quote=FlyerInHi]

Maybe, here, we are a superior group of clean people.[/quote]

Most people write that, I figure it’s a joke. Brian, I’m not so sure.

Anyway, I think clutter bothers some people a lot more than it bothers others. It drives my wife nuts. If she goes into a room just, say, to get something, she notices everything in the room without even trying. If you put a paper clip anywhere in that room, she’ll notice it when she walks in again. Even if she’s not looking for it, she’ll notice it instantly. And it will bug her if it isn’t supposed to be there. I’m the opposite, which I shall illustrate: An old roomate and I used to get kicks from startling/scaring each other. One time I came home and didn’t expect him to be there. He doesn’t want to totally freak me out, so he gives me a hint that he’s there. He leaves an air chair foil (it’s a metal, t-shaped thing about 2 feet by 3 feet) in the doorway to the bathroom. I have to practically contort myself to get by this thing. It doesn’t occur to me that that’s not supposed to be there, nor that it wasn’t there when I left (and so I don’t get the hint, and my hair stands on end when he does jump out of wherever he jumps out of). So maybe it’s not noticing things like that that result in clutter not bothering me. Clutter doesn’t bother me at all. Does that make me inferior? Of course not. Not from any reasonable perspective, anyway. Does it mean that I wouldn’t be helped by decluttering? I think it does. I think that people who are bothered by clutter are sometimes not aware that clutter is what’s bothering them. And those people will probably be amazed at how much decluttering helps them. And some of them probably won’t understand how it wouldn’t help everybody. But I think people who aren’t bothered by clutter wouldn’t get much out of it.

[zk]

[quote=scaredyclassic][quote=moneymaker]It’s possible, just not likely. My half brother is in rehab for the upteenth time. I personally think he would be better off (and happier) living in a commune with professional brain washers who would have a better chance of changing him.[/quote]

i think i could change. dramatically.

my middle kid recently figured out im a truly wacked out liberal. he asked me tonight if being liberal was best. i said, what the hell do I know? nothing! I have no idea whats best…

i could change my mind about everything tomorrow![/quote]

Certainty can be a dangerous (and is usually a stupid) thing. It’s not something to be aimed for, imo.

To me there are few things more loathsome than a smugly certain person.

[zk]

Time Warner has, by far, the worst customer service of any company I have ever dealt with. I would switch, but I like cable, and they’re the only ones in my area. I tried Uverse for a while, and I didn’t like it much. At+t’s customer service sucks, too. I was going to try Direct TV, but I looked at some reviews on line, and apparently their customer service rivals that of Time Warner. It’d be too much hassle and time to switch, and I’d still have lousy customer service.

A lot of people go with netflix/hulu/vudu etc. It must work for them; it doesn’t work for me. But you might check it out, depending on your needs.

If you want cable or uverse or satellite, and you want good (or just not really bad) customer service, I think you’re out of luck.

[zk]

[quote=scaredyclassic]

I see myself not so much as just another lawyer but more as a cultural treasure who singlehandedly increases ever so slightly property values simply by being here.[/quote]

(Big booming super-hero-announcer voice):

It’s SCAREDY MAN!!

He’s not just another lawyer.

He’s a CULTURAL TREASURE!

Single handedly raising your property values since 2010!!

(Legal disclaimer voice): 94th percentile only, no guarantees. Please, no loud noises, sudden moves, risky investments, questions about women, or other scary things. Void on halloween.

[zk]

[quote=scaredyclassic]
it really does suck if you’re only comparing yourself to the top 10%. Also and this is the really shameful thing…I studied really hard to get that sad bottom half of the class of the top 10 % score. Maybe if I’d just gotten over the flu or something. But I felt great..

not getting into Harvard with that kind of moronic result.
[/quote]

Anything can suck if you’re comparing it to something.

One could say, “I’m in the bottom half of the 99th percentile. I’m not too bright.” Or “Son, you’re good at baseball but you suck compared to Babe Ruth.” At some point, it’s just ridiculous.

Not sure what you’re like in real life, scaredy, but if you’re half as fun, funny,intelligent, insightful, original, generous, and full of (a kind of understated) flair as you are on these pages, then you’re way higher than the 94th percentile of mental capacity by any measure that counts. Your talents are indeed quite rare. There’s no way in hell 6 people in a hundred could come up with the stuff you come up with. Not one in a thousand, if you ask me.

I’m a bit embarrassed to say all that because a) you don’t need me to tell you that and b)it sounds somewhat obsequious (and I despise obsequiousness). But there it is.

[zk]

[quote=FlyerInHi] Could it be that if it weren’t for the glory in the eyes of their women, men wouldn’t…?

[/quote]

You could end that sentence with a lot of things.

[zk]

[quote=scaredyclassic]
Maybe it’s a Jewish thing. I wish my iq were higher. My 94th percentile LSAT score was basically in the borderline mentally retarded from a Jewish perspective.[/quote]

That’s hilarious. I can see the older women discussing this.

Bewildered, as if they’d lost someone. “He seemed like such a little genius. I don’t know what happened. 94th percentile! Remember little David? He scored in the 96th percentile and we thought that was bad. Oy vey ist mir.”

[zk]

[quote=CA renter]

I was going to agree with your original (stereotypical) assertion, but what about things like war for the sake or asserting power/control/ego, or the crazy infatuation so many men have with sports — something that doesn’t affect their lives one iota, but something that they will sacrifice their families for (football widows, and all that)? That’s not logical, that’s emotional. It just looks different, perhaps, from how women show their emotions.

[/quote]

Well, as far as war goes, I agree with you that it’s emotional and truly messed up. But most men, in their daily lives, don’t go to war.

Men don’t spend time apart from their women because of sports. Men spend time away from their women because they want to spend time away from their women.

[Author]

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