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SK in CV
ParticipantBrian, I’m gonna add just a couple more cents here.
[quote=DWCAP]
I like the Bay retriever idea. You may be able to find a cross too. Often the best dogs are not pure breeds.Never cared for standard poodles myslef, but that is just me.
[/quote]
I fully understand the attraction of a pure bred dog. I have one myself. (the other one is a mixed rescue from the mean streets of Rosarito.)Seriously consider a mutt, mixed or cross breed. For a whole lot of reasons. It probably won’t be the most handsome dog, but it is likely to be healthier. My experience is that they also tend to be easier to train, not sure why but it seems the bad instincts tend to disappear. Never had an experience where a dog had all the bad traits of multiple breeds. Please consider a shelter dog. Usually lots to choose from.
You might also consider getting a new dog before the old one is through. They’re all different, but a lot of old dogs get new life when another dog comes into the household. If it’s a consideration, test drive it. Make sure the old one doesn’t hate the idea. Specially if it’s a puppy. Some old dogs really take to training the new kid. Others seem to hate it. If he hates it, let him live out his life with just the two of you.
Also, never ever ever get a puppy that’s been weaned before 8 weeks. I can give you a long list of probable behavior problems with puppies weaned too young.
And the poodle thing was just a joke. Poodle people will hate me, but I don’t really even consider them dogs.
ParticipantBrian, I’m gonna add just a couple more cents here.
[quote=DWCAP]
I like the Bay retriever idea. You may be able to find a cross too. Often the best dogs are not pure breeds.Never cared for standard poodles myslef, but that is just me.
[/quote]
I fully understand the attraction of a pure bred dog. I have one myself. (the other one is a mixed rescue from the mean streets of Rosarito.)Seriously consider a mutt, mixed or cross breed. For a whole lot of reasons. It probably won’t be the most handsome dog, but it is likely to be healthier. My experience is that they also tend to be easier to train, not sure why but it seems the bad instincts tend to disappear. Never had an experience where a dog had all the bad traits of multiple breeds. Please consider a shelter dog. Usually lots to choose from.
You might also consider getting a new dog before the old one is through. They’re all different, but a lot of old dogs get new life when another dog comes into the household. If it’s a consideration, test drive it. Make sure the old one doesn’t hate the idea. Specially if it’s a puppy. Some old dogs really take to training the new kid. Others seem to hate it. If he hates it, let him live out his life with just the two of you.
Also, never ever ever get a puppy that’s been weaned before 8 weeks. I can give you a long list of probable behavior problems with puppies weaned too young.
And the poodle thing was just a joke. Poodle people will hate me, but I don’t really even consider them dogs.
ParticipantBrian, I’m gonna add just a couple more cents here.
[quote=DWCAP]
I like the Bay retriever idea. You may be able to find a cross too. Often the best dogs are not pure breeds.Never cared for standard poodles myslef, but that is just me.
[/quote]
I fully understand the attraction of a pure bred dog. I have one myself. (the other one is a mixed rescue from the mean streets of Rosarito.)Seriously consider a mutt, mixed or cross breed. For a whole lot of reasons. It probably won’t be the most handsome dog, but it is likely to be healthier. My experience is that they also tend to be easier to train, not sure why but it seems the bad instincts tend to disappear. Never had an experience where a dog had all the bad traits of multiple breeds. Please consider a shelter dog. Usually lots to choose from.
You might also consider getting a new dog before the old one is through. They’re all different, but a lot of old dogs get new life when another dog comes into the household. If it’s a consideration, test drive it. Make sure the old one doesn’t hate the idea. Specially if it’s a puppy. Some old dogs really take to training the new kid. Others seem to hate it. If he hates it, let him live out his life with just the two of you.
Also, never ever ever get a puppy that’s been weaned before 8 weeks. I can give you a long list of probable behavior problems with puppies weaned too young.
And the poodle thing was just a joke. Poodle people will hate me, but I don’t really even consider them dogs.
ParticipantNatty, I don’t disagree with any of your criticisms. The test results aren’t perfect. Far from it for many breeds with very low incidence of testing. It’s just the most comprehensive info available. It’s not anectdotal, as is most of the anti-pit bull data. (like i said, we count bites. we don’t count non-bites.)
[quote=natty]
Your experience and insight are welcomed though.
If you would, please post information regarding “…breeding of up to 50 generations a century…”
Would enjoy a more thorough read.[/quote]Breeders generally begin breeding when a female is around 2. It’s possible much younger. 100 years divided by 2 equals 50 generations. I’m guessing an average would probably be closer to maybe 25 generations a century. Compared to humans at maybe 4. My point was, if the intent was there, breeders could “create” great danes the size of chihuahuas in a single human lifetime. Same thing could also be done with almost any behavioral trait.
ParticipantNatty, I don’t disagree with any of your criticisms. The test results aren’t perfect. Far from it for many breeds with very low incidence of testing. It’s just the most comprehensive info available. It’s not anectdotal, as is most of the anti-pit bull data. (like i said, we count bites. we don’t count non-bites.)
[quote=natty]
Your experience and insight are welcomed though.
If you would, please post information regarding “…breeding of up to 50 generations a century…”
Would enjoy a more thorough read.[/quote]Breeders generally begin breeding when a female is around 2. It’s possible much younger. 100 years divided by 2 equals 50 generations. I’m guessing an average would probably be closer to maybe 25 generations a century. Compared to humans at maybe 4. My point was, if the intent was there, breeders could “create” great danes the size of chihuahuas in a single human lifetime. Same thing could also be done with almost any behavioral trait.
ParticipantNatty, I don’t disagree with any of your criticisms. The test results aren’t perfect. Far from it for many breeds with very low incidence of testing. It’s just the most comprehensive info available. It’s not anectdotal, as is most of the anti-pit bull data. (like i said, we count bites. we don’t count non-bites.)
[quote=natty]
Your experience and insight are welcomed though.
If you would, please post information regarding “…breeding of up to 50 generations a century…”
Would enjoy a more thorough read.[/quote]Breeders generally begin breeding when a female is around 2. It’s possible much younger. 100 years divided by 2 equals 50 generations. I’m guessing an average would probably be closer to maybe 25 generations a century. Compared to humans at maybe 4. My point was, if the intent was there, breeders could “create” great danes the size of chihuahuas in a single human lifetime. Same thing could also be done with almost any behavioral trait.
ParticipantNatty, I don’t disagree with any of your criticisms. The test results aren’t perfect. Far from it for many breeds with very low incidence of testing. It’s just the most comprehensive info available. It’s not anectdotal, as is most of the anti-pit bull data. (like i said, we count bites. we don’t count non-bites.)
[quote=natty]
Your experience and insight are welcomed though.
If you would, please post information regarding “…breeding of up to 50 generations a century…”
Would enjoy a more thorough read.[/quote]Breeders generally begin breeding when a female is around 2. It’s possible much younger. 100 years divided by 2 equals 50 generations. I’m guessing an average would probably be closer to maybe 25 generations a century. Compared to humans at maybe 4. My point was, if the intent was there, breeders could “create” great danes the size of chihuahuas in a single human lifetime. Same thing could also be done with almost any behavioral trait.
ParticipantNatty, I don’t disagree with any of your criticisms. The test results aren’t perfect. Far from it for many breeds with very low incidence of testing. It’s just the most comprehensive info available. It’s not anectdotal, as is most of the anti-pit bull data. (like i said, we count bites. we don’t count non-bites.)
[quote=natty]
Your experience and insight are welcomed though.
If you would, please post information regarding “…breeding of up to 50 generations a century…”
Would enjoy a more thorough read.[/quote]Breeders generally begin breeding when a female is around 2. It’s possible much younger. 100 years divided by 2 equals 50 generations. I’m guessing an average would probably be closer to maybe 25 generations a century. Compared to humans at maybe 4. My point was, if the intent was there, breeders could “create” great danes the size of chihuahuas in a single human lifetime. Same thing could also be done with almost any behavioral trait.
Participant[quote=briansd1]The dog should be smart, beautiful and obedient. What do you think the Weimaraner, Hungarian Vizsla, or German Short-Haired Pointer?
http://www.dog-breeds-list.com/dog-breeds/24/german-shorthaired-pointer%5B/quote%5DWeis, Viszlas and Pointers are all great dogs. For people that want to put a lot of time into their dogs. Pretty similar dogs in my experience. But all 3 can be unpredictable at times. (I’ve worked with a couple snappy wei’s.) They can take a whole lot of work. I’ve worked with quite a few wei’s and vizlas, only one pionter that i can remember. They are NOT labs. They are NOT goldens. They are NOT GSD’s. You had 3 of the best, easiest to train to do anything dogs there are. These 3 breeds are likely to require a lot more. Both (not counting the pointer, which I really don’t have enough experience with) are breeds I would recommend against for inexperienced dog owners.
Might take a look at a chesepeake bay retriever. It’s a lab with a different coat, though maybe a little bit less needy. Their rep isnt the greatest, but my experience with rhodesian ridgebacks has also been great. Both are a little bit bigger dogs, but meet your requirements.
(Or you could always shave a standard poodle)
Participant[quote=briansd1]The dog should be smart, beautiful and obedient. What do you think the Weimaraner, Hungarian Vizsla, or German Short-Haired Pointer?
http://www.dog-breeds-list.com/dog-breeds/24/german-shorthaired-pointer%5B/quote%5DWeis, Viszlas and Pointers are all great dogs. For people that want to put a lot of time into their dogs. Pretty similar dogs in my experience. But all 3 can be unpredictable at times. (I’ve worked with a couple snappy wei’s.) They can take a whole lot of work. I’ve worked with quite a few wei’s and vizlas, only one pionter that i can remember. They are NOT labs. They are NOT goldens. They are NOT GSD’s. You had 3 of the best, easiest to train to do anything dogs there are. These 3 breeds are likely to require a lot more. Both (not counting the pointer, which I really don’t have enough experience with) are breeds I would recommend against for inexperienced dog owners.
Might take a look at a chesepeake bay retriever. It’s a lab with a different coat, though maybe a little bit less needy. Their rep isnt the greatest, but my experience with rhodesian ridgebacks has also been great. Both are a little bit bigger dogs, but meet your requirements.
(Or you could always shave a standard poodle)
Participant[quote=briansd1]The dog should be smart, beautiful and obedient. What do you think the Weimaraner, Hungarian Vizsla, or German Short-Haired Pointer?
http://www.dog-breeds-list.com/dog-breeds/24/german-shorthaired-pointer%5B/quote%5DWeis, Viszlas and Pointers are all great dogs. For people that want to put a lot of time into their dogs. Pretty similar dogs in my experience. But all 3 can be unpredictable at times. (I’ve worked with a couple snappy wei’s.) They can take a whole lot of work. I’ve worked with quite a few wei’s and vizlas, only one pionter that i can remember. They are NOT labs. They are NOT goldens. They are NOT GSD’s. You had 3 of the best, easiest to train to do anything dogs there are. These 3 breeds are likely to require a lot more. Both (not counting the pointer, which I really don’t have enough experience with) are breeds I would recommend against for inexperienced dog owners.
Might take a look at a chesepeake bay retriever. It’s a lab with a different coat, though maybe a little bit less needy. Their rep isnt the greatest, but my experience with rhodesian ridgebacks has also been great. Both are a little bit bigger dogs, but meet your requirements.
(Or you could always shave a standard poodle)
Participant[quote=briansd1]The dog should be smart, beautiful and obedient. What do you think the Weimaraner, Hungarian Vizsla, or German Short-Haired Pointer?
http://www.dog-breeds-list.com/dog-breeds/24/german-shorthaired-pointer%5B/quote%5DWeis, Viszlas and Pointers are all great dogs. For people that want to put a lot of time into their dogs. Pretty similar dogs in my experience. But all 3 can be unpredictable at times. (I’ve worked with a couple snappy wei’s.) They can take a whole lot of work. I’ve worked with quite a few wei’s and vizlas, only one pionter that i can remember. They are NOT labs. They are NOT goldens. They are NOT GSD’s. You had 3 of the best, easiest to train to do anything dogs there are. These 3 breeds are likely to require a lot more. Both (not counting the pointer, which I really don’t have enough experience with) are breeds I would recommend against for inexperienced dog owners.
Might take a look at a chesepeake bay retriever. It’s a lab with a different coat, though maybe a little bit less needy. Their rep isnt the greatest, but my experience with rhodesian ridgebacks has also been great. Both are a little bit bigger dogs, but meet your requirements.
(Or you could always shave a standard poodle)
Participant[quote=briansd1]The dog should be smart, beautiful and obedient. What do you think the Weimaraner, Hungarian Vizsla, or German Short-Haired Pointer?
http://www.dog-breeds-list.com/dog-breeds/24/german-shorthaired-pointer%5B/quote%5DWeis, Viszlas and Pointers are all great dogs. For people that want to put a lot of time into their dogs. Pretty similar dogs in my experience. But all 3 can be unpredictable at times. (I’ve worked with a couple snappy wei’s.) They can take a whole lot of work. I’ve worked with quite a few wei’s and vizlas, only one pionter that i can remember. They are NOT labs. They are NOT goldens. They are NOT GSD’s. You had 3 of the best, easiest to train to do anything dogs there are. These 3 breeds are likely to require a lot more. Both (not counting the pointer, which I really don’t have enough experience with) are breeds I would recommend against for inexperienced dog owners.
Might take a look at a chesepeake bay retriever. It’s a lab with a different coat, though maybe a little bit less needy. Their rep isnt the greatest, but my experience with rhodesian ridgebacks has also been great. Both are a little bit bigger dogs, but meet your requirements.
(Or you could always shave a standard poodle)
Participant[quote=outtamojo]”No human or canine is born to kill. No human or canine is bred to kill. The idea a ‘pit bull’ is alien to such concrete evidence and data, is absurd”
Huh? What data? If canines weren’t born to kill, I wonder how they managed to survive all those years before humans domesticated them because they are, after all,carnivores.
“Breeding for a predisposition does not guarantee behavior, i.e. a male and female human are tenacious business people, so they breed to pop out offspring who run fortune 500 companies.”
How does this relate to dogs? Ever watch a pointing dog work? Now try THAT with a rottweiler!
Btw, welcome to the Piggington board : )[/quote]
I think you’re both kinda right. Though I do take exception to the sentence preceding that which you posted.
Aggression is a behavior. Behavior is learned. Behavior is a response to outside stimuli.
Let me start by saying this is a subject that is dear to my heart and one with which I am quite familiar. I spent close to 20 years training dogs. That doesn’t make me an expert. There are lots of people that have done it longer than me that I think don’t know shit about dogs. And they may think the same about me. As far as I’m concerned, there is one expert in the world on the subject, and I’m reasonably sure he doesn’t post nor read here.
But here’s a few things that I do know about dogs and pit bulls more specifically.
Dog behavior is controlled both by what they’ve learned and what they were born with. Instincts are strong in some breeds, less in others. Pointers point. Retrievers retrieve. My dog (an Akita, which, by the way is probably a breed you do not want) will not retrieve. He will chase a ball and sniff it. And never bring it back. Dachshunds will dig (and probably be the alpha dog in any multi-dog household). Aussies will herd. In some breeds those instincts are quite noticeable in their behavior, in others not so much.
At up to 50 generations a century, undesirable instincts can be bred out pretty quickly with conscientious breeding. They can also be bred in. Most, though not all, pit bill breeders have been conscientious. Specially when compared to, for example, beagle breeders.
The breeding history of pit bulls is diverse. It is not an AKC recognized breed. It’s history includes bull dogs, bull terriers, staffordshire terriers, and probably a handful of others. The Am Staff is the closest there is to a pure bred. And many, if not most, Am Staff owners would never call their dogs pit bulls.
When it comes to most objectionable behavior, like biting, temperment is more important than obedience training. Temperment is individual to each dog, but breeding does have a strong influence. Dogs bite for two reasons. Fear and agression. Pit bulls breed (and i use that term loosely), based on their source stock, is one of no fear. They are almost always fearless dogs. Agression, however is not so common. (Not never. But anecdotal evidence does not prove much of anything about rate of occurence. Nobody publishes or tells stories of dogs NOT biting.)
The only published comprehensive breed temperment testing that’s been done in this country is done by the American Temperment Test Society. As of the most recent test data available, pit bulls test at above average, with over 85% pass rate compared to around 82% based on the testing of almost 30,000 dogs. (As compared with Shetland Sheepdogs which have a pass rate below 70%) They test slightly better (though probably insignificantly so) than American Staffordshire Terriers.
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