[SDEngineer]

[quote=4plexowner]”BTW, the other problem with a currency tied to a particular commodity – especially a scarce commodity little tied to GDP as a whole – is that by it’s nature, any fixed relationship to that commodity will result in deflationary pressure”

why is this a problem? it makes sense to me that over time, manufactured goods and perhaps even services should decline in price because of increasing efficiency – seems like a good thing

“which harms investment (since dollars become more valuable over time if they are worth a fixed amount of a rare commodity). This occurs because productivity, due to technological enhancements and population increase goes up much faster over time than the commodity supply does.”

again, why is this a problem? perhaps the world’s economies only need to grow (or can accommodate) 2-3% growth rates (which seems like the annual limit on increasing the planet’s stash of above ground gold)

perhaps it is the implementation of fiat currencies that enables the push for growth rates of 5-6% and thereby enables the economic boom-bust cycles

[/quote]

There are several problems. First of all is that if your dollar gains in purchase power over time, there is less of an incentive to invest (since you’re investing in products or services which will be worth less in terms of the dollar in the future), which means there is less market capitalisation, which, of course, will limit market growth. As you pointed out, this is not altogether a bad thing, as it does also limit the scope of bubbles. As sdduuude pointed out, it does increase the value of savings (which is a good thing). Overall though, I think it’s limiting effects on growth hurts more than the increased savings it fosters.

However, there’s a second facet – as a fixed amount of money (or at least an amount of money which is growing slower than population and productivity) is paid out to a growing population base, people must be paid less as well. And, human nature being what it is, those with the power to determine this relationship will typically not accept those pay cuts, while forcing those at the bottom to accept both their share of the pay cuts as well as those in powers share. So, although products and services cost less (vs. the dollar), the average pay is ALSO less – and even moreso because the wealth gap is likely growing at the same time. It’s economic growth which makes things more affordable over time.

As a note though – the boom-bust economic cycle was well documented (and had several examples of much larger booms and busts, including the Great Depression, but also including many economic bust cycles before that) long before the abandonment of the gold standard, so I think that though it would most likely slow down economic growth, it doesn’t appear that economic growth by itself being slowed has a real effect on the economic cycle. Bear in mind, that with the deflationary effects of a commodity based currency, while the actual percentage loss in a given cycle might not be as great, it is felt more, because money is worth less at the end of a cycle than it was at the beginning of the cycle.

[SDEngineer]

[quote=sdduuuude][quote=SDEngineer]How much manipulation can a single individual really do? Please, enlighten me on how this can happen, and exactly how a similar effort could not undermine a standard tied to a SINGLE commodity.

Thanks for the personal attack though.[/quote]

Suggest you direct the next phase of your studies towards Greenspan, interest rate manipulation and the housing bubble. That’s how much.

1 person (OK, maybe its a few) controls the value of all the money in the entire country. That’s how much.

With a gold standard, for one person to manipulate the value of the currency, they would either have to buy most of it, or find a stash of previously undiscovered gold large enough to affect the existing base. I don’t know how one person could affect the value of gold in any other way – you tell me.

I have shown how one person can affect FIAT money, and provided a recent example. Now, you show me how one person can affect the purchasing power of gold.

Hopefully the “personal attack” as you call it will encourage you to dig deeper. Maybe even as deep as I have dug.[/quote]

Yes, I guessed at what your reply was going to be. However, your problem is with regulation (or rather lack of it) and centralization into a central authority (something that can also easily be done in a non-fiat money system as well).

I agree with you that Greenspan (and the Fed in general) should NEVER have held that much power over currency, and the Fed should have remembered that one purpose behind regulation is to regulate not only the downside of the economy, but the upside as well, so that bubbles don’t form as easily, or grow as large.

With similarly lax regulation, one person can ALSO effectively change the gold standard – with one stroke of the pen, the dollar was revalued against gold several times during our history. Whatever dollars you currently held were no longer convertible to gold in the same ratio they were just the day before.

Unless our currency is actually MADE of a substance with inherent value, it’s always a fiat currency of one sort or another, and it will ALWAYS be subject to manipulation by government. The fact that the government agrees that a dollar is worth a certain amount of grams of gold on one day doesn’t mean the government can’t change that on the next day.

BTW, the other problem with a currency tied to a particular commodity – especially a scarce commodity little tied to GDP as a whole – is that by it’s nature, any fixed relationship to that commodity will result in deflationary pressure, which harms investment (since dollars become more valuable over time if they are worth a fixed amount of a rare commodity). This occurs because productivity, due to technological enhancements and population increase goes up much faster over time than the commodity supply does.

[SDEngineer]

[quote=sdduuuude][quote=SDEngineer]How much manipulation can a single individual really do? Please, enlighten me on how this can happen, and exactly how a similar effort could not undermine a standard tied to a SINGLE commodity.

Thanks for the personal attack though.[/quote]

Suggest you direct the next phase of your studies towards Greenspan, interest rate manipulation and the housing bubble. That’s how much.

1 person (OK, maybe its a few) controls the value of all the money in the entire country. That’s how much.

With a gold standard, for one person to manipulate the value of the currency, they would either have to buy most of it, or find a stash of previously undiscovered gold large enough to affect the existing base. I don’t know how one person could affect the value of gold in any other way – you tell me.

I have shown how one person can affect FIAT money, and provided a recent example. Now, you show me how one person can affect the purchasing power of gold.

Hopefully the “personal attack” as you call it will encourage you to dig deeper. Maybe even as deep as I have dug.[/quote]

Yes, I guessed at what your reply was going to be. However, your problem is with regulation (or rather lack of it) and centralization into a central authority (something that can also easily be done in a non-fiat money system as well).

I agree with you that Greenspan (and the Fed in general) should NEVER have held that much power over currency, and the Fed should have remembered that one purpose behind regulation is to regulate not only the downside of the economy, but the upside as well, so that bubbles don’t form as easily, or grow as large.

With similarly lax regulation, one person can ALSO effectively change the gold standard – with one stroke of the pen, the dollar was revalued against gold several times during our history. Whatever dollars you currently held were no longer convertible to gold in the same ratio they were just the day before.

Unless our currency is actually MADE of a substance with inherent value, it’s always a fiat currency of one sort or another, and it will ALWAYS be subject to manipulation by government. The fact that the government agrees that a dollar is worth a certain amount of grams of gold on one day doesn’t mean the government can’t change that on the next day.

BTW, the other problem with a currency tied to a particular commodity – especially a scarce commodity little tied to GDP as a whole – is that by it’s nature, any fixed relationship to that commodity will result in deflationary pressure, which harms investment (since dollars become more valuable over time if they are worth a fixed amount of a rare commodity). This occurs because productivity, due to technological enhancements and population increase goes up much faster over time than the commodity supply does.

[SDEngineer]

[quote=sdduuuude][quote=SDEngineer]How much manipulation can a single individual really do? Please, enlighten me on how this can happen, and exactly how a similar effort could not undermine a standard tied to a SINGLE commodity.

Thanks for the personal attack though.[/quote]

Suggest you direct the next phase of your studies towards Greenspan, interest rate manipulation and the housing bubble. That’s how much.

1 person (OK, maybe its a few) controls the value of all the money in the entire country. That’s how much.

With a gold standard, for one person to manipulate the value of the currency, they would either have to buy most of it, or find a stash of previously undiscovered gold large enough to affect the existing base. I don’t know how one person could affect the value of gold in any other way – you tell me.

I have shown how one person can affect FIAT money, and provided a recent example. Now, you show me how one person can affect the purchasing power of gold.

Hopefully the “personal attack” as you call it will encourage you to dig deeper. Maybe even as deep as I have dug.[/quote]

Yes, I guessed at what your reply was going to be. However, your problem is with regulation (or rather lack of it) and centralization into a central authority (something that can also easily be done in a non-fiat money system as well).

I agree with you that Greenspan (and the Fed in general) should NEVER have held that much power over currency, and the Fed should have remembered that one purpose behind regulation is to regulate not only the downside of the economy, but the upside as well, so that bubbles don’t form as easily, or grow as large.

With similarly lax regulation, one person can ALSO effectively change the gold standard – with one stroke of the pen, the dollar was revalued against gold several times during our history. Whatever dollars you currently held were no longer convertible to gold in the same ratio they were just the day before.

Unless our currency is actually MADE of a substance with inherent value, it’s always a fiat currency of one sort or another, and it will ALWAYS be subject to manipulation by government. The fact that the government agrees that a dollar is worth a certain amount of grams of gold on one day doesn’t mean the government can’t change that on the next day.

BTW, the other problem with a currency tied to a particular commodity – especially a scarce commodity little tied to GDP as a whole – is that by it’s nature, any fixed relationship to that commodity will result in deflationary pressure, which harms investment (since dollars become more valuable over time if they are worth a fixed amount of a rare commodity). This occurs because productivity, due to technological enhancements and population increase goes up much faster over time than the commodity supply does.

[SDEngineer]

[quote=sdduuuude][quote=SDEngineer]How much manipulation can a single individual really do? Please, enlighten me on how this can happen, and exactly how a similar effort could not undermine a standard tied to a SINGLE commodity.

Thanks for the personal attack though.[/quote]

Suggest you direct the next phase of your studies towards Greenspan, interest rate manipulation and the housing bubble. That’s how much.

1 person (OK, maybe its a few) controls the value of all the money in the entire country. That’s how much.

With a gold standard, for one person to manipulate the value of the currency, they would either have to buy most of it, or find a stash of previously undiscovered gold large enough to affect the existing base. I don’t know how one person could affect the value of gold in any other way – you tell me.

I have shown how one person can affect FIAT money, and provided a recent example. Now, you show me how one person can affect the purchasing power of gold.

Hopefully the “personal attack” as you call it will encourage you to dig deeper. Maybe even as deep as I have dug.[/quote]

Yes, I guessed at what your reply was going to be. However, your problem is with regulation (or rather lack of it) and centralization into a central authority (something that can also easily be done in a non-fiat money system as well).

I agree with you that Greenspan (and the Fed in general) should NEVER have held that much power over currency, and the Fed should have remembered that one purpose behind regulation is to regulate not only the downside of the economy, but the upside as well, so that bubbles don’t form as easily, or grow as large.

With similarly lax regulation, one person can ALSO effectively change the gold standard – with one stroke of the pen, the dollar was revalued against gold several times during our history. Whatever dollars you currently held were no longer convertible to gold in the same ratio they were just the day before.

Unless our currency is actually MADE of a substance with inherent value, it’s always a fiat currency of one sort or another, and it will ALWAYS be subject to manipulation by government. The fact that the government agrees that a dollar is worth a certain amount of grams of gold on one day doesn’t mean the government can’t change that on the next day.

BTW, the other problem with a currency tied to a particular commodity – especially a scarce commodity little tied to GDP as a whole – is that by it’s nature, any fixed relationship to that commodity will result in deflationary pressure, which harms investment (since dollars become more valuable over time if they are worth a fixed amount of a rare commodity). This occurs because productivity, due to technological enhancements and population increase goes up much faster over time than the commodity supply does.

[SDEngineer]

[quote=sdduuuude][quote=SDEngineer]How much manipulation can a single individual really do? Please, enlighten me on how this can happen, and exactly how a similar effort could not undermine a standard tied to a SINGLE commodity.

Thanks for the personal attack though.[/quote]

Suggest you direct the next phase of your studies towards Greenspan, interest rate manipulation and the housing bubble. That’s how much.

1 person (OK, maybe its a few) controls the value of all the money in the entire country. That’s how much.

With a gold standard, for one person to manipulate the value of the currency, they would either have to buy most of it, or find a stash of previously undiscovered gold large enough to affect the existing base. I don’t know how one person could affect the value of gold in any other way – you tell me.

I have shown how one person can affect FIAT money, and provided a recent example. Now, you show me how one person can affect the purchasing power of gold.

Hopefully the “personal attack” as you call it will encourage you to dig deeper. Maybe even as deep as I have dug.[/quote]

Yes, I guessed at what your reply was going to be. However, your problem is with regulation (or rather lack of it) and centralization into a central authority (something that can also easily be done in a non-fiat money system as well).

I agree with you that Greenspan (and the Fed in general) should NEVER have held that much power over currency, and the Fed should have remembered that one purpose behind regulation is to regulate not only the downside of the economy, but the upside as well, so that bubbles don’t form as easily, or grow as large.

With similarly lax regulation, one person can ALSO effectively change the gold standard – with one stroke of the pen, the dollar was revalued against gold several times during our history. Whatever dollars you currently held were no longer convertible to gold in the same ratio they were just the day before.

Unless our currency is actually MADE of a substance with inherent value, it’s always a fiat currency of one sort or another, and it will ALWAYS be subject to manipulation by government. The fact that the government agrees that a dollar is worth a certain amount of grams of gold on one day doesn’t mean the government can’t change that on the next day.

BTW, the other problem with a currency tied to a particular commodity – especially a scarce commodity little tied to GDP as a whole – is that by it’s nature, any fixed relationship to that commodity will result in deflationary pressure, which harms investment (since dollars become more valuable over time if they are worth a fixed amount of a rare commodity). This occurs because productivity, due to technological enhancements and population increase goes up much faster over time than the commodity supply does.

[SDEngineer]

[quote=sdduuuude][quote=SDEngineer]
At it’s heart, any form of money is a fiat monetary system. Tying it to a commodity (like the gold standard) simply means that it inflates or deflates against the perceived value of that particular commodity, rather than the productivity of the nation as a whole (which I would think would be more stable than the perceived value of a single commodity). Certainly being on the gold standard wasn’t able to prevent the Great Depression, the bank runs in the early 1800’s, or any other historical serious depression/recession.
[/quote]

I’m quite convinced you don’t understand free markets at all. Suggest you learn a bit before spouting off.

The difference between a gold standard and the one we have now is that a single individual can manipulate the current currency – a single point of failure by an unelected official and a truly authoritarian situation. Not even close to democracy.[/quote]

I’m quite convinced of the opposite, and have studied economics enough that I believe I do understand free market economies quite well, thank you very much. How much manipulation can a single individual really do? Please, enlighten me on how this can happen, and exactly how a similar effort could not undermine a standard tied to a SINGLE commodity. I am well aware that many conservatives consider this to be the case, but then again, many conservatives consider “trickle down” economics to be a valid theory as well.

Thanks for the personal attack though.

[SDEngineer]

[quote=sdduuuude][quote=SDEngineer]
At it’s heart, any form of money is a fiat monetary system. Tying it to a commodity (like the gold standard) simply means that it inflates or deflates against the perceived value of that particular commodity, rather than the productivity of the nation as a whole (which I would think would be more stable than the perceived value of a single commodity). Certainly being on the gold standard wasn’t able to prevent the Great Depression, the bank runs in the early 1800’s, or any other historical serious depression/recession.
[/quote]

I’m quite convinced you don’t understand free markets at all. Suggest you learn a bit before spouting off.

The difference between a gold standard and the one we have now is that a single individual can manipulate the current currency – a single point of failure by an unelected official and a truly authoritarian situation. Not even close to democracy.[/quote]

I’m quite convinced of the opposite, and have studied economics enough that I believe I do understand free market economies quite well, thank you very much. How much manipulation can a single individual really do? Please, enlighten me on how this can happen, and exactly how a similar effort could not undermine a standard tied to a SINGLE commodity. I am well aware that many conservatives consider this to be the case, but then again, many conservatives consider “trickle down” economics to be a valid theory as well.

Thanks for the personal attack though.

[SDEngineer]

[quote=sdduuuude][quote=SDEngineer]
At it’s heart, any form of money is a fiat monetary system. Tying it to a commodity (like the gold standard) simply means that it inflates or deflates against the perceived value of that particular commodity, rather than the productivity of the nation as a whole (which I would think would be more stable than the perceived value of a single commodity). Certainly being on the gold standard wasn’t able to prevent the Great Depression, the bank runs in the early 1800’s, or any other historical serious depression/recession.
[/quote]

I’m quite convinced you don’t understand free markets at all. Suggest you learn a bit before spouting off.

The difference between a gold standard and the one we have now is that a single individual can manipulate the current currency – a single point of failure by an unelected official and a truly authoritarian situation. Not even close to democracy.[/quote]

I’m quite convinced of the opposite, and have studied economics enough that I believe I do understand free market economies quite well, thank you very much. How much manipulation can a single individual really do? Please, enlighten me on how this can happen, and exactly how a similar effort could not undermine a standard tied to a SINGLE commodity. I am well aware that many conservatives consider this to be the case, but then again, many conservatives consider “trickle down” economics to be a valid theory as well.

Thanks for the personal attack though.

[SDEngineer]

[quote=sdduuuude][quote=SDEngineer]
At it’s heart, any form of money is a fiat monetary system. Tying it to a commodity (like the gold standard) simply means that it inflates or deflates against the perceived value of that particular commodity, rather than the productivity of the nation as a whole (which I would think would be more stable than the perceived value of a single commodity). Certainly being on the gold standard wasn’t able to prevent the Great Depression, the bank runs in the early 1800’s, or any other historical serious depression/recession.
[/quote]

I’m quite convinced you don’t understand free markets at all. Suggest you learn a bit before spouting off.

The difference between a gold standard and the one we have now is that a single individual can manipulate the current currency – a single point of failure by an unelected official and a truly authoritarian situation. Not even close to democracy.[/quote]

I’m quite convinced of the opposite, and have studied economics enough that I believe I do understand free market economies quite well, thank you very much. How much manipulation can a single individual really do? Please, enlighten me on how this can happen, and exactly how a similar effort could not undermine a standard tied to a SINGLE commodity. I am well aware that many conservatives consider this to be the case, but then again, many conservatives consider “trickle down” economics to be a valid theory as well.

Thanks for the personal attack though.

[SDEngineer]

[quote=sdduuuude][quote=SDEngineer]
At it’s heart, any form of money is a fiat monetary system. Tying it to a commodity (like the gold standard) simply means that it inflates or deflates against the perceived value of that particular commodity, rather than the productivity of the nation as a whole (which I would think would be more stable than the perceived value of a single commodity). Certainly being on the gold standard wasn’t able to prevent the Great Depression, the bank runs in the early 1800’s, or any other historical serious depression/recession.
[/quote]

I’m quite convinced you don’t understand free markets at all. Suggest you learn a bit before spouting off.

The difference between a gold standard and the one we have now is that a single individual can manipulate the current currency – a single point of failure by an unelected official and a truly authoritarian situation. Not even close to democracy.[/quote]

I’m quite convinced of the opposite, and have studied economics enough that I believe I do understand free market economies quite well, thank you very much. How much manipulation can a single individual really do? Please, enlighten me on how this can happen, and exactly how a similar effort could not undermine a standard tied to a SINGLE commodity. I am well aware that many conservatives consider this to be the case, but then again, many conservatives consider “trickle down” economics to be a valid theory as well.

Thanks for the personal attack though.

[SDEngineer]

[quote=4plexowner]I’m probably over-simplifying things but I don’t see how we can have a healthy economy that is founded on a fraudulent monetary system

we spend lots of time arguing about free markets, etc but almost never discuss the foundation upon which these markets are based

that foundation, our fiat monetary system, is at best a confidence game and at worst, outright fraud

how can we as citizens / business people make economic decisions effectively when the value of our currency is controlled by the whims of bankers and politicians?[/quote]

At it’s heart, any form of money is a fiat monetary system. Tying it to a commodity (like the gold standard) simply means that it inflates or deflates against the perceived value of that particular commodity, rather than the productivity of the nation as a whole (which I would think would be more stable than the perceived value of a single commodity). Certainly being on the gold standard wasn’t able to prevent the Great Depression, the bank runs in the early 1800’s, or any other historical serious depression/recession.

[SDEngineer]

[quote=4plexowner]I’m probably over-simplifying things but I don’t see how we can have a healthy economy that is founded on a fraudulent monetary system

we spend lots of time arguing about free markets, etc but almost never discuss the foundation upon which these markets are based

that foundation, our fiat monetary system, is at best a confidence game and at worst, outright fraud

how can we as citizens / business people make economic decisions effectively when the value of our currency is controlled by the whims of bankers and politicians?[/quote]

At it’s heart, any form of money is a fiat monetary system. Tying it to a commodity (like the gold standard) simply means that it inflates or deflates against the perceived value of that particular commodity, rather than the productivity of the nation as a whole (which I would think would be more stable than the perceived value of a single commodity). Certainly being on the gold standard wasn’t able to prevent the Great Depression, the bank runs in the early 1800’s, or any other historical serious depression/recession.

[SDEngineer]

[quote=4plexowner]I’m probably over-simplifying things but I don’t see how we can have a healthy economy that is founded on a fraudulent monetary system

we spend lots of time arguing about free markets, etc but almost never discuss the foundation upon which these markets are based

that foundation, our fiat monetary system, is at best a confidence game and at worst, outright fraud

how can we as citizens / business people make economic decisions effectively when the value of our currency is controlled by the whims of bankers and politicians?[/quote]

At it’s heart, any form of money is a fiat monetary system. Tying it to a commodity (like the gold standard) simply means that it inflates or deflates against the perceived value of that particular commodity, rather than the productivity of the nation as a whole (which I would think would be more stable than the perceived value of a single commodity). Certainly being on the gold standard wasn’t able to prevent the Great Depression, the bank runs in the early 1800’s, or any other historical serious depression/recession.

[SDEngineer]

[quote=4plexowner]I’m probably over-simplifying things but I don’t see how we can have a healthy economy that is founded on a fraudulent monetary system

we spend lots of time arguing about free markets, etc but almost never discuss the foundation upon which these markets are based

that foundation, our fiat monetary system, is at best a confidence game and at worst, outright fraud

how can we as citizens / business people make economic decisions effectively when the value of our currency is controlled by the whims of bankers and politicians?[/quote]

At it’s heart, any form of money is a fiat monetary system. Tying it to a commodity (like the gold standard) simply means that it inflates or deflates against the perceived value of that particular commodity, rather than the productivity of the nation as a whole (which I would think would be more stable than the perceived value of a single commodity). Certainly being on the gold standard wasn’t able to prevent the Great Depression, the bank runs in the early 1800’s, or any other historical serious depression/recession.

[Author]

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