Newspeak Alert!

[SDEngineer]

[quote=4plexowner]I’m probably over-simplifying things but I don’t see how we can have a healthy economy that is founded on a fraudulent monetary system

we spend lots of time arguing about free markets, etc but almost never discuss the foundation upon which these markets are based

that foundation, our fiat monetary system, is at best a confidence game and at worst, outright fraud

how can we as citizens / business people make economic decisions effectively when the value of our currency is controlled by the whims of bankers and politicians?[/quote]

At it’s heart, any form of money is a fiat monetary system. Tying it to a commodity (like the gold standard) simply means that it inflates or deflates against the perceived value of that particular commodity, rather than the productivity of the nation as a whole (which I would think would be more stable than the perceived value of a single commodity). Certainly being on the gold standard wasn’t able to prevent the Great Depression, the bank runs in the early 1800’s, or any other historical serious depression/recession.

[jpinpb]

Forget about free market and government interference. It seems that only prevalent thing through history through today is fraud and Ponzi schemes. Seems to be the one thing that continues to thrive on so many levels and just keeps growing like incontrolled mold. Need a couple of gallons of bleach over here.

[jpinpb]

Forget about free market and government interference. It seems that only prevalent thing through history through today is fraud and Ponzi schemes. Seems to be the one thing that continues to thrive on so many levels and just keeps growing like incontrolled mold. Need a couple of gallons of bleach over here.

[jpinpb]

Forget about free market and government interference. It seems that only prevalent thing through history through today is fraud and Ponzi schemes. Seems to be the one thing that continues to thrive on so many levels and just keeps growing like incontrolled mold. Need a couple of gallons of bleach over here.

[jpinpb]

Forget about free market and government interference. It seems that only prevalent thing through history through today is fraud and Ponzi schemes. Seems to be the one thing that continues to thrive on so many levels and just keeps growing like incontrolled mold. Need a couple of gallons of bleach over here.

[jpinpb]

Forget about free market and government interference. It seems that only prevalent thing through history through today is fraud and Ponzi schemes. Seems to be the one thing that continues to thrive on so many levels and just keeps growing like incontrolled mold. Need a couple of gallons of bleach over here.

[sdduuuude]

[quote=SDEngineer][quote=bubble_contagion]How about making sure that Government will not interfere or influence the market economy, house prices in particular.[/quote]

Pure market economies are overrated anyway. Without regulation, markets overreact in both directions. We’re currently reaping the rewards of what a highly unregulated market does when the drivers are not rational actors, but real human beings who have a tendency to be greedy and shortsighted.[/quote]

Pure market economies do involve regulation. Regulation has to exist to ensure that fradulent participants are punished, and contractual agreements are being honored. That’s where most people get it wrong. People think a free market is where everyone is free to do what they want and that the participants are required to be perfect citizens. This is dead wrong.

A free market requires that it’s participants are free from others infringing upon their rights, and to do this, transactional rules and regulations are needed.

For example, on critical element of a free market is that of property rights. Property rights must be upheld, and violations of property rights (theft) must be punshed for a free market to remain free. This can be considered a kind of regulation, yet it is a critical part of the free market.

[sdduuuude]

[quote=SDEngineer][quote=bubble_contagion]How about making sure that Government will not interfere or influence the market economy, house prices in particular.[/quote]

Pure market economies are overrated anyway. Without regulation, markets overreact in both directions. We’re currently reaping the rewards of what a highly unregulated market does when the drivers are not rational actors, but real human beings who have a tendency to be greedy and shortsighted.[/quote]

Pure market economies do involve regulation. Regulation has to exist to ensure that fradulent participants are punished, and contractual agreements are being honored. That’s where most people get it wrong. People think a free market is where everyone is free to do what they want and that the participants are required to be perfect citizens. This is dead wrong.

A free market requires that it’s participants are free from others infringing upon their rights, and to do this, transactional rules and regulations are needed.

For example, on critical element of a free market is that of property rights. Property rights must be upheld, and violations of property rights (theft) must be punshed for a free market to remain free. This can be considered a kind of regulation, yet it is a critical part of the free market.

[sdduuuude]

[quote=SDEngineer][quote=bubble_contagion]How about making sure that Government will not interfere or influence the market economy, house prices in particular.[/quote]

Pure market economies are overrated anyway. Without regulation, markets overreact in both directions. We’re currently reaping the rewards of what a highly unregulated market does when the drivers are not rational actors, but real human beings who have a tendency to be greedy and shortsighted.[/quote]

Pure market economies do involve regulation. Regulation has to exist to ensure that fradulent participants are punished, and contractual agreements are being honored. That’s where most people get it wrong. People think a free market is where everyone is free to do what they want and that the participants are required to be perfect citizens. This is dead wrong.

A free market requires that it’s participants are free from others infringing upon their rights, and to do this, transactional rules and regulations are needed.

For example, on critical element of a free market is that of property rights. Property rights must be upheld, and violations of property rights (theft) must be punshed for a free market to remain free. This can be considered a kind of regulation, yet it is a critical part of the free market.

[sdduuuude]

[quote=SDEngineer][quote=bubble_contagion]How about making sure that Government will not interfere or influence the market economy, house prices in particular.[/quote]

Pure market economies are overrated anyway. Without regulation, markets overreact in both directions. We’re currently reaping the rewards of what a highly unregulated market does when the drivers are not rational actors, but real human beings who have a tendency to be greedy and shortsighted.[/quote]

Pure market economies do involve regulation. Regulation has to exist to ensure that fradulent participants are punished, and contractual agreements are being honored. That’s where most people get it wrong. People think a free market is where everyone is free to do what they want and that the participants are required to be perfect citizens. This is dead wrong.

A free market requires that it’s participants are free from others infringing upon their rights, and to do this, transactional rules and regulations are needed.

For example, on critical element of a free market is that of property rights. Property rights must be upheld, and violations of property rights (theft) must be punshed for a free market to remain free. This can be considered a kind of regulation, yet it is a critical part of the free market.

[sdduuuude]

[quote=SDEngineer][quote=bubble_contagion]How about making sure that Government will not interfere or influence the market economy, house prices in particular.[/quote]

Pure market economies are overrated anyway. Without regulation, markets overreact in both directions. We’re currently reaping the rewards of what a highly unregulated market does when the drivers are not rational actors, but real human beings who have a tendency to be greedy and shortsighted.[/quote]

Pure market economies do involve regulation. Regulation has to exist to ensure that fradulent participants are punished, and contractual agreements are being honored. That’s where most people get it wrong. People think a free market is where everyone is free to do what they want and that the participants are required to be perfect citizens. This is dead wrong.

A free market requires that it’s participants are free from others infringing upon their rights, and to do this, transactional rules and regulations are needed.

For example, on critical element of a free market is that of property rights. Property rights must be upheld, and violations of property rights (theft) must be punshed for a free market to remain free. This can be considered a kind of regulation, yet it is a critical part of the free market.

[sdduuuude]

[quote=urbanrealtor]I challenge you to paint a large world-ranked economy that functioned on true free-market practice and had a functional democratic state.

Ever.

In history.

Even once.

No Ayn Rand (or Heinlein) does not count.

For that matter I challenge you to name the biggest economy ever that fit those criteria.

I don’t say this just to be rhetorical.

If you can find one I am willing to listen.

Last I checked though, it is not a coincidence that liberal democracy (as in classical not contemporary liberalism) sprung up around the same time as industry. Democracy exists as a political check on capitalism. The free market is the opposite of democracy because it involves unequal voting. Two people’s “wealth votes” are by definition not equal.

Please refrain from using “sheeple”, “our country was founded on…”, “you liberals…”, or anything about Ron Paul. [/quote]

I would say the emergence of the entire internet is the closest thing to a free market we have ever seen.

As will happen in free markets, an economic cycle boomed and busted in this industry (some may say it was an artifact of Fed policy, but lets just say, “it happened”). Some call this boom/bust a short-coming. I just see it as a part of life. What is the big deal? But, you know what. It’s still here and it’s pretty nifty and it moved so fast that it emerged with minimal regulation.

[sdduuuude]

[quote=urbanrealtor]I challenge you to paint a large world-ranked economy that functioned on true free-market practice and had a functional democratic state.

Ever.

In history.

Even once.

No Ayn Rand (or Heinlein) does not count.

For that matter I challenge you to name the biggest economy ever that fit those criteria.

I don’t say this just to be rhetorical.

If you can find one I am willing to listen.

Last I checked though, it is not a coincidence that liberal democracy (as in classical not contemporary liberalism) sprung up around the same time as industry. Democracy exists as a political check on capitalism. The free market is the opposite of democracy because it involves unequal voting. Two people’s “wealth votes” are by definition not equal.

Please refrain from using “sheeple”, “our country was founded on…”, “you liberals…”, or anything about Ron Paul. [/quote]

I would say the emergence of the entire internet is the closest thing to a free market we have ever seen.

As will happen in free markets, an economic cycle boomed and busted in this industry (some may say it was an artifact of Fed policy, but lets just say, “it happened”). Some call this boom/bust a short-coming. I just see it as a part of life. What is the big deal? But, you know what. It’s still here and it’s pretty nifty and it moved so fast that it emerged with minimal regulation.

[sdduuuude]

[quote=urbanrealtor]I challenge you to paint a large world-ranked economy that functioned on true free-market practice and had a functional democratic state.

Ever.

In history.

Even once.

No Ayn Rand (or Heinlein) does not count.

For that matter I challenge you to name the biggest economy ever that fit those criteria.

I don’t say this just to be rhetorical.

If you can find one I am willing to listen.

Last I checked though, it is not a coincidence that liberal democracy (as in classical not contemporary liberalism) sprung up around the same time as industry. Democracy exists as a political check on capitalism. The free market is the opposite of democracy because it involves unequal voting. Two people’s “wealth votes” are by definition not equal.

Please refrain from using “sheeple”, “our country was founded on…”, “you liberals…”, or anything about Ron Paul. [/quote]

I would say the emergence of the entire internet is the closest thing to a free market we have ever seen.

As will happen in free markets, an economic cycle boomed and busted in this industry (some may say it was an artifact of Fed policy, but lets just say, “it happened”). Some call this boom/bust a short-coming. I just see it as a part of life. What is the big deal? But, you know what. It’s still here and it’s pretty nifty and it moved so fast that it emerged with minimal regulation.

[sdduuuude]

[quote=urbanrealtor]I challenge you to paint a large world-ranked economy that functioned on true free-market practice and had a functional democratic state.

Ever.

In history.

Even once.

No Ayn Rand (or Heinlein) does not count.

For that matter I challenge you to name the biggest economy ever that fit those criteria.

I don’t say this just to be rhetorical.

If you can find one I am willing to listen.

Last I checked though, it is not a coincidence that liberal democracy (as in classical not contemporary liberalism) sprung up around the same time as industry. Democracy exists as a political check on capitalism. The free market is the opposite of democracy because it involves unequal voting. Two people’s “wealth votes” are by definition not equal.

Please refrain from using “sheeple”, “our country was founded on…”, “you liberals…”, or anything about Ron Paul. [/quote]

I would say the emergence of the entire internet is the closest thing to a free market we have ever seen.

As will happen in free markets, an economic cycle boomed and busted in this industry (some may say it was an artifact of Fed policy, but lets just say, “it happened”). Some call this boom/bust a short-coming. I just see it as a part of life. What is the big deal? But, you know what. It’s still here and it’s pretty nifty and it moved so fast that it emerged with minimal regulation.

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