Newspeak Alert!

[SDEngineer]

[quote=urbanrealtor]I challenge you to paint a large world-ranked economy that functioned on true free-market practice and had a functional democratic state.

Ever.

In history.

Even once.

No Ayn Rand (or Heinlein) does not count.

For that matter I challenge you to name the biggest economy ever that fit those criteria.

I don’t say this just to be rhetorical.

If you can find one I am willing to listen.

Last I checked though, it is not a coincidence that liberal democracy (as in classical not contemporary liberalism) sprung up around the same time as industry. Democracy exists as a political check on capitalism. The free market is the opposite of democracy because it involves unequal voting. Two people’s “wealth votes” are by definition not equal.

Please refrain from using “sheeple”, “our country was founded on…”, “you liberals…”, or anything about Ron Paul. [/quote]

Well put, but we do have examples of very close to true free market economics (at least within the nation itself) close at hand.

The U.S. during the mid 1800’s, when laissez faire capitalism was the rule (internally anyway – externally, the US government was protectionist, as was typical for the time).

Extreme wealth polarization with a tiny class of industrialists having the vast majority of wealth, a small middle class consisting of educated professionals like lawyers and doctors, and the vast majority of citizens living barely above subsistence wages was the result.

In history, this has been the end result of EVERY capitalist economy unchecked by governmental regulation.

There’s a very good REASON that Karl Marx’s theories were popular at one time – when they were written, capitalism didn’t really look so good to most people. Those who haven’t studied the history of capitalism tend not to realize that most of the reason why Karl Marx’s theories seem silly today is that most of the developed nations have discarded the laissez faire capitalism which was the rule in his day – and compared to which, communism did indeed seem preferable for most people.

The rise of the middle class in the U.S. was principally due to the socialist refinements in our capitalist system which started in the late 1800’s and accelerated during the 1900’s – largely the unions, which actually gave labor a voice in the distribution of the profits of their work.

[4plexowner]

I’m probably over-simplifying things but I don’t see how we can have a healthy economy that is founded on a fraudulent monetary system

we spend lots of time arguing about free markets, etc but almost never discuss the foundation upon which these markets are based

that foundation, our fiat monetary system, is at best a confidence game and at worst, outright fraud

how can we as citizens / business people make economic decisions effectively when the value of our currency is controlled by the whims of bankers and politicians?

[4plexowner]

I’m probably over-simplifying things but I don’t see how we can have a healthy economy that is founded on a fraudulent monetary system

we spend lots of time arguing about free markets, etc but almost never discuss the foundation upon which these markets are based

that foundation, our fiat monetary system, is at best a confidence game and at worst, outright fraud

how can we as citizens / business people make economic decisions effectively when the value of our currency is controlled by the whims of bankers and politicians?

[4plexowner]

I’m probably over-simplifying things but I don’t see how we can have a healthy economy that is founded on a fraudulent monetary system

we spend lots of time arguing about free markets, etc but almost never discuss the foundation upon which these markets are based

that foundation, our fiat monetary system, is at best a confidence game and at worst, outright fraud

how can we as citizens / business people make economic decisions effectively when the value of our currency is controlled by the whims of bankers and politicians?

[4plexowner]

I’m probably over-simplifying things but I don’t see how we can have a healthy economy that is founded on a fraudulent monetary system

we spend lots of time arguing about free markets, etc but almost never discuss the foundation upon which these markets are based

that foundation, our fiat monetary system, is at best a confidence game and at worst, outright fraud

how can we as citizens / business people make economic decisions effectively when the value of our currency is controlled by the whims of bankers and politicians?

[4plexowner]

I’m probably over-simplifying things but I don’t see how we can have a healthy economy that is founded on a fraudulent monetary system

we spend lots of time arguing about free markets, etc but almost never discuss the foundation upon which these markets are based

that foundation, our fiat monetary system, is at best a confidence game and at worst, outright fraud

how can we as citizens / business people make economic decisions effectively when the value of our currency is controlled by the whims of bankers and politicians?

[blahblahblah]

You’re right 4plex, but unfortunately very few will ever be able to understand that fact. And that’s why the game works so well.

Never forget that the average IQ is 100. The bankers certainly won’t.

[blahblahblah]

You’re right 4plex, but unfortunately very few will ever be able to understand that fact. And that’s why the game works so well.

Never forget that the average IQ is 100. The bankers certainly won’t.

[blahblahblah]

You’re right 4plex, but unfortunately very few will ever be able to understand that fact. And that’s why the game works so well.

Never forget that the average IQ is 100. The bankers certainly won’t.

[blahblahblah]

You’re right 4plex, but unfortunately very few will ever be able to understand that fact. And that’s why the game works so well.

Never forget that the average IQ is 100. The bankers certainly won’t.

[blahblahblah]

You’re right 4plex, but unfortunately very few will ever be able to understand that fact. And that’s why the game works so well.

Never forget that the average IQ is 100. The bankers certainly won’t.

[SDEngineer]

[quote=4plexowner]I’m probably over-simplifying things but I don’t see how we can have a healthy economy that is founded on a fraudulent monetary system

we spend lots of time arguing about free markets, etc but almost never discuss the foundation upon which these markets are based

that foundation, our fiat monetary system, is at best a confidence game and at worst, outright fraud

how can we as citizens / business people make economic decisions effectively when the value of our currency is controlled by the whims of bankers and politicians?[/quote]

At it’s heart, any form of money is a fiat monetary system. Tying it to a commodity (like the gold standard) simply means that it inflates or deflates against the perceived value of that particular commodity, rather than the productivity of the nation as a whole (which I would think would be more stable than the perceived value of a single commodity). Certainly being on the gold standard wasn’t able to prevent the Great Depression, the bank runs in the early 1800’s, or any other historical serious depression/recession.

[SDEngineer]

[quote=4plexowner]I’m probably over-simplifying things but I don’t see how we can have a healthy economy that is founded on a fraudulent monetary system

we spend lots of time arguing about free markets, etc but almost never discuss the foundation upon which these markets are based

that foundation, our fiat monetary system, is at best a confidence game and at worst, outright fraud

how can we as citizens / business people make economic decisions effectively when the value of our currency is controlled by the whims of bankers and politicians?[/quote]

At it’s heart, any form of money is a fiat monetary system. Tying it to a commodity (like the gold standard) simply means that it inflates or deflates against the perceived value of that particular commodity, rather than the productivity of the nation as a whole (which I would think would be more stable than the perceived value of a single commodity). Certainly being on the gold standard wasn’t able to prevent the Great Depression, the bank runs in the early 1800’s, or any other historical serious depression/recession.

[SDEngineer]

[quote=4plexowner]I’m probably over-simplifying things but I don’t see how we can have a healthy economy that is founded on a fraudulent monetary system

we spend lots of time arguing about free markets, etc but almost never discuss the foundation upon which these markets are based

that foundation, our fiat monetary system, is at best a confidence game and at worst, outright fraud

how can we as citizens / business people make economic decisions effectively when the value of our currency is controlled by the whims of bankers and politicians?[/quote]

At it’s heart, any form of money is a fiat monetary system. Tying it to a commodity (like the gold standard) simply means that it inflates or deflates against the perceived value of that particular commodity, rather than the productivity of the nation as a whole (which I would think would be more stable than the perceived value of a single commodity). Certainly being on the gold standard wasn’t able to prevent the Great Depression, the bank runs in the early 1800’s, or any other historical serious depression/recession.

[SDEngineer]

[quote=4plexowner]I’m probably over-simplifying things but I don’t see how we can have a healthy economy that is founded on a fraudulent monetary system

we spend lots of time arguing about free markets, etc but almost never discuss the foundation upon which these markets are based

that foundation, our fiat monetary system, is at best a confidence game and at worst, outright fraud

how can we as citizens / business people make economic decisions effectively when the value of our currency is controlled by the whims of bankers and politicians?[/quote]

At it’s heart, any form of money is a fiat monetary system. Tying it to a commodity (like the gold standard) simply means that it inflates or deflates against the perceived value of that particular commodity, rather than the productivity of the nation as a whole (which I would think would be more stable than the perceived value of a single commodity). Certainly being on the gold standard wasn’t able to prevent the Great Depression, the bank runs in the early 1800’s, or any other historical serious depression/recession.

[Author]

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