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scaredyclassic
Participant[quote=doofrat][quote=scaredyclassic]it does seem irrational that the creator is a bear on aunicycle who farts souls. first of all, bears are small and bound to the earth, probably, they only live in certain habitats. it’s not really likely that the farting and the soul are connected. it just seems irrational to think that souls are created by farting bears. is it dogmatic to hold to that view? no. probably not. there’s nothing to support it. for those who believe that we will find out in the afterlife that indeed, there is a special bear, one not bound by earthly laws, one who rides and farts souls…i say…dogmatically…no…no, that’s wrong.
[/quote]Scaredy, it’s a CLOWN riding a unicycle, not a BEAR, that’s the other religion. Geesh, before you go bagging on my Clown religion maybe you need to understand it better![/quote]
the bear resonates more with me, feels more mythologically powerful. Also clowns were a relatively recent invention. Bear farts seems more plausibly linked to a powerful other world while clown farts are just sad. Not as sad as nailing people to crosses. But sad.
Participant[quote=zk][quote=Allan from Fallbrook][quote=zk][quote=flyer]I find it amusing that “nonbelievers” think their opinion is more valid than “believers.”
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Not more valid necessarily, but definitely more rational.[/quote]
zk: So, you’re arguing AGAINST dogmatism, by USING dogmatism?[/quote]
No. I’m not saying that my position is incontrovertibly true (dogmatism).
I’m saying that my position is rational. Completely different from incontrovertibly true.
Rational means based on or in accordance with reason or logic. I have used reason and logic to arrive at my conclusion. Faith, by definition, does not use these things to reach a conclusion.[/quote]
We know all sorts of things that are not incontrovertibly true.
Participant[quote=jeff303][quote=scaredyclassic]
no fucking way. i tend to think I have a sense of humor about the whole thing; i mean, if i felt ridiculed for what i know to be true, I wouldn’t get pissed; because i view the whole debate as slightly absurd.on the other hand, the other side is serious. not funny…not open…desperately closed…
so no conversations! no one in the known universe has the necessary conversational skills, except psychologists specializing in cult debriefing.
actually, i take that back.. in 1981, freshman year…long conversations with a born again superhot girl till late at night in the ivy league dorm..the arguemtns for and against the existence of G-d. for me the sexual tension was pretty high (i cant speak for her, but I suspect it was quite a bit lower)…
she was so unbelievably sweet and beautiful, breasts that almost proved the existence of a G-d ( i certainly would’ve sworn my allegiance to any deity and fought on His behalf for Them), but theologically we didn’t seem to get anywhere..a few years later, she dropped the born again thing. I’m sure her parents blamed the liberal college scene…in a way they were right…such a smart beautiful girl…just thinking about how delicate and lovely and kind and sincere she was makes me feel liek the world is a good place…[/quote]
Have you ever read House of Leaves? You could easily pass for Johnny Truant.[/quote]
No but I’ll get the book. Just checked it out on amazon. Looks fun.
ParticipantBelief in a G-d who rules everything and loves you in particular seems to be a more egotistical position by its very nature.
Participant[quote=Blogstar]Probably a certain vanity or egotism , not humility at all , in being haughty about the believers. If the believers seem consistently more fucked up than the rest of us then maybe I could see laughing in their faces, but it just isn’t that way.
To me it’s about how we chose to be governed. We all have to chose sources to fulfill our need for governance. Religion is above all a form or forms of governance of societies and individuals. Look at the right wingers , most religiously fanatic and anti-government, with the strong attachment to governance by religion it makes sense. Their need for governance is filled by churches and bible verses so they have psychic space to be more hostile to the government…Jesus is their president. They say stuff like that
Others of us chose to be governed more by the actual standing government, social convention, our friends and families in some hodge podge way and don’t see a need for church/religion. But, I think it’s fair to say that these types of governances are as flawed or nearly as flawed as most of those that have a large dose of religion..so get off the high horse.[/quote]
that makes sense. I think I shaLol adopt it as my belief system.
Participant[quote=moneymaker]Remember having this conversation with my dad before he died and we each made a pact to come back and tell the other what is on the other side of death if anything. Well he died in 1997 and several years later I was in my living room and I was amazed to see for a brief moment what I can only describe as an etheral burning bush about 3 feet off the floor. It was there maybe a second or two and then gone, no voices like in the bible. I’m sure I was not hallucinating. Even with this possible proof I still do not know if it was “the burning bush” or the fires of hell, knowing my dad it could have gone either way. My conclusion to all this is we don’t know everything that is going on out there.[/quote]
more accurately, we know even less of what is going on inside of us than we do of what is out there.
perhaps the flooding in new Orleans was a telegraph from Him re sinfulness in the bayou?
Participantand if there were a G-d, I would not like him anyway. He is an asshole. I would tell him so to His face. the whole flood thing was unforgiveable. picture innocent babies, their sinful mothers desperately clutching them, watching them drowned out like rats as the water rose, for no reason, other than that the Big guy lost his temper. You’ve got to be kidding me. Fuck Him. Even if He did exist, his behavior was in my view unforgiveable, extremely bad parenting, and I don’t want anyhting to do with Him. I’m also still angry about the holocaust.
Participantit does seem irrational that the creator is a bear on aunicycle who farts souls. first of all, bears are small and bound to the earth, probably, they only live in certain habitats. it’s not really likely that the farting and the soul are connected. it just seems irrational to think that souls are created by farting bears. is it dogmatic to hold to that view? no. probably not. there’s nothing to support it. for those who believe that we will find out in the afterlife that indeed, there is a special bear, one not bound by earthly laws, one who rides and farts souls…i say…dogmatically…no…no, that’s wrong.
not rational..
same with the cross story…
Participant[quote=zk][quote=doofrat]
I always find it funny when religious people bash on Mormons, Catholics, Muslims, Scientologists, etc. for how crazy their story is while they themselves choose to believe some bizarre tale spun by a science fiction writer, a con man from Chicago, or some asshole a few thousand years ago claiming he is the son of God himself.
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I remember when the 39 heaven’s gate cult members killed themselves in order to catch a ride on the spaceship that was hidden behind a passing comet. So many people were saying, “how could they actually believe that.” I remember thinking (but not saying out loud) what you’re saying. Funny that all these religious are people shaking their heads in disgust at those people for believing that story, when the story they believe is at least as ludicrous.
Most of my friends, and most of the people I know, are christians, and many of the rest are some other religion. I don’t have the social skills to bring this kind of thing up to my religious friends and not sound like an asshole. So I don’t say anything. (In fact, a lot of them probably don’t even know that I’m essentially an atheist.) It’s easy here on a blog, to discuss these things, but not so much in real life. For me, anyway.
Any of you non-believers bring this stuff up in real-life conversations with religious friends?[/quote]
no fucking way. i tend to think I have a sense of humor about the whole thing; i mean, if i felt ridiculed for what i know to be true, I wouldn’t get pissed; because i view the whole debate as slightly absurd.
on the other hand, the other side is serious. not funny…not open…desperately closed…
so no conversations! no one in the known universe has the necessary conversational skills, except psychologists specializing in cult debriefing.
actually, i take that back.. in 1981, freshman year…long conversations with a born again superhot girl till late at night in the ivy league dorm..the arguemtns for and against the existence of G-d. for me the sexual tension was pretty high (i cant speak for her, but I suspect it was quite a bit lower)…
she was so unbelievably sweet and beautiful, breasts that almost proved the existence of a G-d ( i certainly would’ve sworn my allegiance to any deity and fought on His behalf for Them), but theologically we didn’t seem to get anywhere..a few years later, she dropped the born again thing. I’m sure her parents blamed the liberal college scene…in a way they were right…such a smart beautiful girl…just thinking about how delicate and lovely and kind and sincere she was makes me feel liek the world is a good place…
Participantwith my new 1,000,000 term life policy, i’d be kind of excited in a way about dying (suddenly though, without too much suffering please) in the sense that it’d be like a form of employment but only within the next 20 years. after that i may as well live a long life…
Participant[quote=CA renter][quote=scaredyclassic]Everybody wants to go to heaven but no n one wants to die.[/quote]
First off, I think you’re terribly funny, scaredy, so tell your wife that she is wrong on that count. 🙂 Your joining us again after your hiatus the other year (last year?) made me exceedingly happy.
Anyway, let me tell you about the death of my parents. Both died from cancer less than three weeks apart, and I got to watch both of them die. My father was either an atheist or agnostic — he wasn’t one to talk about these things with others. My mother, OTOH, was a “born-again” fundamentalist Christian. When my father died, it was clear that he was absolutely terrified, even though he had lived for many years with cancer, so had a lot of time to mentally prepare. It was very difficult to watch. My mother’s last words just before she slipped into the pre-death comatose state was: “I know this sounds weird, but I’m actually excited…this is fun…I finally get to see what’s on the other side.” She was not afraid of death, and her passing was much more peaceful.
I agree that some of the religious stories are pretty silly, but I think it’s because people are trying to make “worldly” sense out of something that is completely beyond their mental and emotional grasp.
Ultimately, none of us knows what happens when we die, but what we DO know is that we will all die. IMO, it’s better to believe and be wrong than to disbelieve and be wrong. One way makes death and dying a bit easier to deal with, while the other is rather terrifying. It’s just a matter of whether or not one is willing to pay for that “afterlife insurance.” Maybe you won’t need it, but it’s sure nice to have if you do end up needing it.[/quote]
After the end, it doesn’t matter whether you died in terror or in peace. I’d rather live authentically and not pretend to swallow something I KNOW is a bunch of malarkey and die in full terror and awareness, than live with my head filled with crap.
same reason I don’t li ke bad news sugarcoated right now. i want it straight authentic, no bullshit.
Participant[quote=CA renter]scaredy, what makes you so confident in your conviction that nothing else happens after we die? Just curious.[/quote]
same reason you are in your heart certain (as one can be certain) that the creator is not a farting bear on a unicycle.
Participant[quote=flyer]I find it amusing that “nonbelievers” think their opinion is more valid than “believers.”
A “nonbeliever” stating that something doesn’t exist is nothing more than another “opinion.”–nothing more, and, believe me, it means absolutely nothing to a “believer.” I’m certain a “nonbeliever” feels likewise–and neither cares what the other thinks.
So, in the meantime, until the truth becomes evident, or never does, we can spend our time making our millions and enjoying our lives with family and friends. At least, that’s what I’m doing.
Cheers![/quote]i dont think my belief is more valid than yours. just more firmly held, as it’s not a “belief”. I KNOW for certain that wearing certain underwear will not get you into heaven, as some mormons hold, and I KNOW with the same degree of certainty that G-ds son was not nailed to a cross to die for our sins, and I KNOW that G-d does not care about us. I am not saying that you may not know, differently, but I think you just kind of hope, or try to believe, or have faith, or are wishing (as all humans must do in these types of systems of religion). That’s fine, not less valid, just less firm. It’s a “faith”…something which cannot be known…just sort of held on to, as firmly as one possibly can, given the absurdity of life and the explanation for all that absurdity given by that particular religion’s explanation of it all…
I will not yield on this point. I will hold it until my dying breath.
I also KNOW (not believe), KNOW that all of those beliefs, the cross, the underwear, the praying, all have important social functions, and produce certain effects in people they find beneficial. For these reasons, they are worthy of respect…not because they are true in the sense of having any independent existence aside from the meaning they have in a social structure…but because they somehow give meaning to people in a world where our full time job is searching for meaning.
I would never say, hey wait till it’s all over, then you’ll see I’m right…because I know that’s an absurd statement (from my point of view). from the point of view of a faith-adherent, who in the end is someone who has taken up pascals wager, with varying degrees of certainty, it does make sense to say it will all become clear later. and it’s valid. just way less firm…Firm is “I know now.”
ParticipantI guess this is why I don’t get invited to a lot of parties.
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