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scaredyclassic
Participantalso…not incpmpatible with getting really drunk…
i think socrates got wasted..
Participant[quote=CDMA ENG]Right now…
I am listening to some beautiful Gaberial Era Genesis… Feeling the nice ocean breeze through my home…
And laughing at you guys for wasting such precious time on incredibly long and unwinnable debates…
I suggest you laugh at yourselves… Drink some nice wine and listen to something beautiful of you own choice…
We will all be dead soon enough and to waste time trying to convince one another of each other view point is worthless…
CE
As the human torch says “Flame on!”[/quote]
wasting time? this is the whole point of living!
Dialectic (also dialectics and the dialectical method) is a method of argument for resolving disagreement that has been central to European and Indian philosophy since antiquity. The word dialectic originated in ancient Greece, and was made popular by Plato in the Socratic dialogues. The dialectical method is discourse between two or more people holding different points of view about a subject, who wish to establish the truth of the matter guided by reasoned arguments.[1]
The term dialectics is not synonymous with the term debate. While in theory debaters are not necessarily emotionally invested in their point of view, in practice debaters frequently display an emotional commitment that may cloud rational judgement. Debates are won through a combination of persuading the opponent; proving one’s argument correct; or proving the opponent’s argument incorrect. Debates do not necessarily require promptly identifying a clear winner or loser; however clear winners are frequently determined by either a judge, jury, or by group consensus. The term dialectics is also not synonymous with the term rhetoric, a method or art of discourse that seeks to persuade, inform, or motivate an audience.[2] Concepts, like “logos” or rational appeal, “pathos” or emotional appeal, and “ethos” or ethical appeal, are intentionally used by rhetoricians to persuade an audience.[3]
The Sophists taught aretē (Greek: ἀρετή, quality, excellence) as the highest value, and the determinant of one’s actions in life. The Sophists taught artistic quality in oratory (motivation via speech) as a manner of demonstrating one’s aretē. Oratory was taught as an art form, used to please and to influence other people via excellent speech; nonetheless, the Sophists taught the pupil to seek aretē in all endeavours, not solely in oratory.[citation needed]
Socrates favoured truth as the highest value, proposing that it could be discovered through reason and logic in discussion: ergo, dialectic. Socrates valued rationality (appealing to logic, not emotion) as the proper means for persuasion, the discovery of truth, and the determinant for one’s actions. To Socrates, truth, not aretē, was the greater good, and each person should, above all else, seek truth to guide one’s life. Therefore, Socrates opposed the Sophists and their teaching of rhetoric as art and as emotional oratory requiring neither logic nor proof.[4] Different forms of dialectical reasoning have emerged throughout history from the Indosphere (Greater India) and the West (Europe). These forms include the Socratic method, Hindu, Buddhist, Medieval, Hegelian dialectics,
Participant[quote=Blogstar][quote=scaredyclassic][quote=FlyerInHi]scaredyclassic, I like your writing. Is discrete sex outside of marriage ok?[/quote]
Thnx for compliment. I’m better at oral argument than writing.[/quote]
Maybe that is where you are like a woman too, scaredy, the verbal stuff. Maybe being like a woman in some way is good for lawyering?[/quote]Jews and words go way back.
huh. here’s a book called jews and words that just came out!
i was hanging out at pegasus books in berkeley ca just lasy week reading this.
jews and words, words and jews.
but yeah, i am the gentle persuader, the feminine conflict resolver…im way more liek a girl than my wife, who is very blunt and masculine in her approach. i only approach obliquely, tentatively, always seeking eprmission and consent and consensus.
she just tells it like it is. she can be brutal.
Participant[quote=FlyerInHi]scaredyclassic, I like your writing. Is discrete sex outside of marriage ok?[/quote]
Thnx for compliment. I’m better at oral argument than writing.
ParticipantInteresting. The French family I au paired for was divorced. He lived on the top floor madame and daughter on 2nd floor me in the basement.
I remember going out for drinks with him and some girl I’d met and him hitting really desperately on the girl. I was freaked out cause I didn’t realize they weren’t together at that time!
Vive LA france!
The parents liked me but the girl didnt. She was a focused achiever and I was practically a hobo.
Participant[quote=FlyerInHi]scaredyclassic, I like your writing. Is discrete sex outside of marriage ok?[/quote]
No.
Participantmattresses take up 1/3 of life.
ParticipantI would never do anything. I like the way weathered old stuff looks naturally.
ParticipantKev, if this kind of adult discussion doesn’t wilt your wiener, then my boy, you are ready to be a man, and to marry…
Participant[quote=Blogstar]My youngest blogstar jr. Is going to be 8 in dec.
My kids do not need a two parent household let alone a sahp. It has nothing to do with them. They get zero benefit out of my wife and I sharing a bedroom and little out of us sharing the rest of the house day after day.What they need,
More and better mentoring. More quality time with peers and to continue to know both biological untts are crazy about them and will always be there.
What they need from their mom and I they could get with us living in separate households if we didn’t break up in a melodramatic fool fashion and play stupid hate games and victim games for years on end.That’s not to say I am anti-family but at this point where reasonableness and respect would be involved anyway , it’s not that important.[/quote]
Ok , maybe this is just me being very old fashioned, but I think there’s a lot of value to kids when parents stay together. Even if they split, and it’s amicable, I just don’t believe it’s as good as being amicable together.
First, kids worry about their parents. They worry more as they get older. I feel like parents who stay together do their kids the favor of having to worry less about their parents and their parents loneliness. That’s worth a lot in my book. This goes triple when the folks get older, but I think it’s true even when the parents are young.
Second, kids seeing parents work shit out is valuable. My mom and dad had their crazy moments, but dammit, he wouldn’t leave. He stuck it out even for stretches when he probably wasn’t feeling it. That’s what you call a fucking role model. I respect that. He did it for a lot fo reasons, but the overarching reason was it was best for all involved…not just him, but all of us.
That’s a sacrifice, I suppose, and not one I feel guilty about – although I feel guilty about all sorts of other stuff, but not that….that’s being a man, in my book. So I believe, maybe wrongly, that that’s good for one’s kids to see. Can I put a price on it? No, but it’s worth a shitload.
Third, I believe in wedding vows. I don’t believe in G-d or any of that stuff, but I believe in keeping your word, as best you can, and people who stick it out, even if they’re sometimes not happy about it, that has some real value to me…and it’s not like I tell my kids that, but I think they figure that shit out. So it has value, man; kids whose parents stay married are more likely to stay married I think, and more likely to take serious commitment seriously, which, in the overall scheme of life, is usually a good thing.
One of the things I like a lot about my kid’s girlfriend is her parents have been married a long time. That is good. That doesn’t guarantee anything but in general, it correlates with mental health. If hre parents were split up…I wouldn’t think she was necessarily unfit…but I put intact family as a big plus in the “do I like her as a future mate” column. My wife’s parents…married since the dawn of time…that’s good. That’s my prejudice, and I don’t have any data onhand to back it up, but CaR I’m sure can dig up some statistics to back up that this is a healthy thing.
So to say it’s all the same if you split up…I just respectfully and strongly disagree. I’m not saying splitting up necessarily messes the kids up, or it can’t be ok if you are split up. Just that there is value in being together. Lots of value. That’s my position and I’m not changing. It’s not so much self-sacrifice as just subjugating what you want for other people’s benefit. If anything, I think it enhances the self.
But nothing should ever be done within the family for the good of the dog.
ParticipantOK I MAY HAVE CHANGED MY MIND…
I SUPPORT CARENTER
I feel like there’s too much group energy against CArenter’s position,
so that has made me rethink where im at and why I‘m coming from this. I hate ganging up on the underdog, especially when the underdog has essentially a good purpose.
When my kids were little, our life was total chaotic shit. I recall thinking that the entire USA sucked ass because it was so shitty for us as parents. We couldn’t get quality, affordable day care, hell we were having trouble just getting DAYCARE let alone meeting the other 2 criteria. I felt like this nation doesn’t give a RATS ASS about parents or my woes and that that WAS WRONG. Morally wrong. Wrong as a matter of social policy. Just mean and fucked up.
Somehow we survived. It was financially crappy. It would’ve been better for me to stay home. Yeah, I know lawyers have a rep for making tons of money, but that is not necessarily the case. It was about 7 years into my career before I broke 50k a year. When they were little I was earning between 28-32k. I had a large loan payment (since refinanced, but it was in the 1k a month range!) with 1200 a month in child care expenses, I was literally working for nothing; losing money every month, really. Plus the stress was unbelievable. I got charged $1.00 a minute for being late to day care, and sometimes I was in court and had to HAUL ASS to avoid fees, or would get dinged $5.00 and warned about being thrown out. Iw as just holding on for dear life and hoping for better days….or at least no more need for diapers…
IS THIS ANY WAY TO RUN A COUNTRY?????
No. no it’s not. The richest nation in the world does not have to treat parents as crap. And the reality is the nation doesn’t value child care, or parents who are struggling. The nation has made a collective decision; you all are on your fucking own, good luck.
That sucks. Now that it’s further in the past, I’m still a little pissed, but, as with many other things, you just kind of take reality as it is. I’m not in the business of lobbying my legislature for a more child and parent friendly nation.
The reality is no one gives a damn about me or my kids. It’s all on me. It’s an expense I undertook. But I’m trying to keep expenses low….its not just worth a high priced nanny and whatever else I might like. It’s worth whatever I have, but that’s not much.
I look at it this way. I had a burning desire for a 3,700 watch. HAD TO HAVE IT. Now there’s a replica that is almost identical on the outside (not the inside, but the outer appearance). It is around $300. Did I really make 3,400 if I buy the replica? Assuming I MUST HAVE THIS WATCH. Which may eb as strong a bio drive as your desire to have kids.
Another example; friend of mine, childless, high earner, 40s, loves her dogs. More recently, it seems like she’s getting a little crazy about them. Very large dogs with digestive problems. She is spending THOUSANDS a month on RAW MEAT for them. Fresh—must be purchased EVERY DAY. She ahs her hubby stopping to pick up the meat. There is a lot of other work involved with these hounds. If she were to pay someone to do it –and im not sure what youd have to pay to have someone clean up their diarrhea episodes…eesh—it would be minimum 20,000 a year. She takes them to DOGGIE DAYCARE fer chrissakes. This whole raw thing is gonna be trendy with dogs. Dog health. Huge vet bills… transportation. Staying up with them at nite when they’re not feeling well…researching their health issues…
If she quit her job and stayed home to take care of those dogs, could she really say to her husband, hey, six of one half dozen of the other, savings is income, could she say that taking care of the dogs is productive in terms of cash. It might sound crazy to you, but these dogs are her BABIES, she calls them the boys. She values their health over her own health. It’s nuts.
Well..seeing your kids like that is a bit the same…sure it has value…to her…maybe even her husband, I don’t know. But it’s not making money, and it’s not really making the world a better place…not really…
Should the nation be different? Should we provide greater support to parents?
Absolutely.
Would it be better if we valued helping parents raise decent children.
Absolutely.
Is It harsh out there?
yup
Is that reality?
yes.
It’s life as we live, or at least as I lived it.
And also—— I HATE DOGS.
But I love kids!
Participant[quote=UCGal][quote=CA renter]The feminists are trying to paint a picture of SAHPs as parasites who deserve nothing in return for their services. They are actively undermining the protections for SAHPs that many have worked so hard for over the years. [/quote]
Examples please.
Show that there is a feminist agenda to paint a picture of SAHPs as parasites. I’ve seen the exact opposite from groups I consider feminist. (Women’s professional societies, NOW, Ms Magazine, etc.)And you still don’t get my point that working parents are still contributing to the household in a non-financially compensated way during non-work hours – you don’t get to claim the 24/7 hours for SAHP and not allow working parents to claim the off-hours as well. This refusal to see this point is incredibly frustrating.
Here- maybe this will make you feel better.
CAR – you are a wonderful parent, wife, homemaker, and you are worth billions of dollars to your family!!!! Far more than any other mother anywhere.[/quote]most parents think theya re doing a better job than they are, i think. i know my parents made me very very nervous, both genetically and environmentally.
maybe that will help me survive, but….they should have got their pay cut fr damaging the goods.
Participant[quote=UCGal][quote=CA renter]The feminists are trying to paint a picture of SAHPs as parasites who deserve nothing in return for their services. They are actively undermining the protections for SAHPs that many have worked so hard for over the years. [/quote]
Examples please.
Show that there is a feminist agenda to paint a picture of SAHPs as parasites. I’ve seen the exact opposite from groups I consider feminist. (Women’s professional societies, NOW, Ms Magazine, etc.)And you still don’t get my point that working parents are still contributing to the household in a non-financially compensated way during non-work hours – you don’t get to claim the 24/7 hours for SAHP and not allow working parents to claim the off-hours as well. This refusal to see this point is incredibly frustrating.
Here- maybe this will make you feel better.
CAR – you are a wonderful parent, wife, homemaker, and you are worth billions of dollars to your family!!!! Far more than any other mother anywhere.[/quote]i never thought of my family or wife as parasites. but now that you mention it, how much would a single mom have to pay a dude for a room, board and general backup care for a kid. that could be easily valued as well…it’s offensive to think that way, because it seems to point out that there is no family unit. but parcelling out services does that too, though to a far lesser degree…
Participant[quote=Blogstar][quote=CA renter][quote=Blogstar]What control does any outside party have over what a sahm gets for her services? When would it ever make a difference what you think your work and sex are worth monetarily? How could anyone possibly destroy what you are doing with any agenda? This all sounds paranoid and weird. The whole thing looks like it’s based in some insecurity about justifying your existence.
I know a few stay at home moms and I can’t think of one who would be want to be caught dead talking like you do. Do you have friends who are all into sharing these ideas?[/quote]
Like I’ve said, Russ, I’ve spent years studying family formation trends and their economic effects on families and society. I don’t get my opinions from friends, I get them as a result of doing a lot of research. That’s why I know about Warren Farrell and Ann Crittenden, among many others who research and write about these topics.
How do these people affect what SAHPs get for their services? They actively work to change laws that were put in place to protect SAHPs — alimony, child support/custody, community property, etc. They have been chipping away at these protections for years. There is no paranoia on my part, but there is a lot of ignorance on your part, Russ.[/quote]
That’s the way it looks to me.
Are your views even in anyone else’s ballpark?[/quote]i was bearish on housing, the markets…but somehow I myself was bullish on marriage, without any prenups.
not sure where my optimism and faith sprang from…
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